Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

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I can’t embed this link because I’m on my cell phone but it is an interview with Bill Bottrell. Interviewed at Abbey Road Institute in Paris. Talks MJ and their work and relationship from about 6:30- 11:30. This is somebody that really knew Michael deep down.

[video=youtube;dHa1Gt8-DV8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHa1Gt8-DV8[/video]
 
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I like Bill. He seems to speak well of Michael. I'd love to hear his Bahrain demo for Michael again, Why Can't You Hear Me, that's was a really catchy groove
 
I think this was posted before.

Nice to see again though.

I think Bill is my favourite collaborator of Michael's. The guitars and rock he brought just meshed so well with Michael's style.

I'm sure Brad said Michael and Bill had a falling out.
 
I would like to hear one day what really happened regarding the rap section of ‘Black Or White’.

So far, there are two different versions of that story.

Bill Bottrell said that Bryan Loren was not comfortable being a rapper, so he rapped that section instead of Loren, & MJ liked his performance.

But Bryan Loren provided a completely different version of the story & said that he was very comfortable being a rapper & also that he was the one who rapped & recorded the final version (approved by MJ) which was meant to make the album.

But, much to Loren’s surprise, the rap section was eventually included on the album featuring Bottrell’s vocals.

Bryan Loren suggested that the rap section with Bottrell’s vocals (that made the album) was a result of behind the scenes machinations, rather than a result of MJ’s preference.
 
mj_frenzy;4262540 said:
I would like to hear one day what really happened regarding the rap section of ‘Black Or White’.

So far, there are two different versions of that story.

Bill Bottrell said that Bryan Loren was not comfortable being a rapper, so he rapped that section instead of Loren, & MJ liked his performance.

But Bryan Loren provided a completely different version of the story & said that he was very comfortable being a rapper & also that he was the one who rapped & recorded the final version (approved by MJ) which was meant to make the album.

But, much to Loren’s surprise, the rap section was eventually included on the album featuring Bottrell’s vocals.

Bryan Loren suggested that the rap section with Bottrell’s vocals (that made the album) was a result of behind the scenes machinations, rather than a result of MJ’s preference.
I heard that ll cool j was supposed to rap on it but mj liked Bill's version so he kept it. I read that from a book i believe
 
Here's the Bryan Loren MJCast interview where he talked about the BoW rap:



I can imagine that ultimately Michael liked the "whiteness" of Bill's rap performance,
as it fit the whole "it doesn't matter if black or white" topic.
 
Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.
 
Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.

It's not always all sunshine and bees and birds in the music biz. lol
You can sense at some parts that Bryan has a bit of an ego, but still, his stories are insightful and (to me) believeable.
And it's understandable that he wasn't happy how things went.
 
Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.

I was the exact same as well. He didn't come across very well during that interview, he was short with the interviewer and he had an enormous ego. But he could have just been having a bad day
 
As far as I remember Bryan Loren has been known to take credit for things and exaggerate his contributions in regards to mj. I don't consider him very trustworthy.
 
wonderouzmj;4262542 said:
I heard that ll cool j was supposed to rap on it but mj liked Bill's version so he kept it. I read that from a book i believe

This is also included on Bill Bottrell’s version of the story.

Electro;4262543 said:
I can imagine that ultimately Michael liked the "whiteness" of Bill's rap performance,
as it fit the whole "it doesn't matter if black or white" topic.

That theory is not true.

If MJ ultimately liked the “whiteness” of Bill Bottrell’s rap performance & also wanted to get a message across through that (in accordance with the song’s topic), then he would not have used black guys to rap that section in the live performances of that song for the Dangerous Tour & the HIStory Tour.

He would also have used white guys to rap that section live during those tours.

Besides, MJ did not let people/fans know that the guy who raps that section (on the album) was a white guy because his identity was concealed under those three letters (L.T.B.).

Bill Bottrell’s identity was revealed many years later (after the album’s initial release in 1991) by Bill Bottrell himself, not by MJ.
 
mj_frenzy;4262616 said:
That theory is not true.

I never claim my theories to be true. That's your thing. ;)


mj_frenzy;4262616 said:
If MJ ultimately liked the “whiteness” of Bill Bottrell’s rap performance & also wanted to get a message across through that (in accordance with the song’s topic), then he would not have used black guys to rap that section in the live performances of that song for the Dangerous Tour & the HIStory Tour.

He would also have used white guys to rap that section live during those tours.

Besides, MJ did not let people/fans know that the guy who raps that section (on the album) was a white guy because his identity was concealed under those three letters (L.T.B.).

Bill Bottrell’s identity was revealed many years later (after the album’s initial release in 1991) by Bill Bottrell himself, not by MJ.



Although this song was called "Black or White", things are not always just black or white.

Besides maybe Bryan's ego or politics spoiling things for him, it is still possible, that Michael simply preferred the clean neutral non-rapper "whiteness" (see the quotation marks) of Bill's rap performance (not necessarily the fact that he IS white) for the studio version of this song.

That's actually Bryan's theory (see mjcast interview), adding that the style of his own performance of the rap was more street (or so).

Then years later to have other rappers of other color (Bill also obviously was not a stage performer / rapper) do it in concerts doesn't necessarily contradict this, given the context of "it doesn't matter if your black or white".








Btw, some quotes from both about the BoW rap:

Bill Bottrell:

"All the time I kept telling Michael that we had to have a rap, and he brought in rappers like LL Cool J and the Notorious BIG who were performing on other songs. Somehow, I didn't have access to them for 'Black Or White', and it was getting later and later and I wanted the song to be done. So, one day I wrote the rap — I woke up in the morning and, before my first cup of coffee, I began writing down what I was hearing, because the song had been in my head for about eight months by that time and it was an obssession to try and fill that last gap."

It is interesting that Jackson left this task to Bottrell and didn't try to fill said gap himself. "That's the sort of thing he does," asserts Bottrell. "It seems kind of random, but it's as if he makes things happen through omission. There's nobody else, and it's as if he knows that's what you're up against and challenges you to do it. For my part, I didn't think much of white rap, so I brought in Bryan Loren to rap my words and he did change some of the rhythms, but he was not comfortable being a rapper. As a result, I performed it the same day after Bryan left, did several versions, fixed one, played it for Michael the next day and he went 'Ohhh, I love it Bill, I love it. That should be the one.' I kept saying 'No, we've got to get a real rapper,' but as soon as he heard my performance he was committed to it and wouldn't consider using anybody else."

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-michael-jackson-black-or-white


Bryan Loren:

I actually did write, or co-write rather, Black Or White. I wrote the rap that's in Black Or White. Now, that's a story that's not very common. But it's also a story Michael is not reponsible for why I'm not credited there, and I'll just leave that there. There was another party. The other party is the one that I did the rap with. Because they had done it and didn't like it. I came in and I rewrote it and I actually performed it. And when I came in to hear it a week or so later, it was their voice instead of mine. And I just assumed that meant ok, he just wanted to do it himself, and he also homogenized it because I did the rap more like a rapper would do it. You know, all the same words, but it had more of an attitude when I did it. And he did it very straight. You know. And so I figured, ok maybe that's why he did it because he wanted to have that more neutral appeal. You know. But then when the record came out, I didn't have any credit. So I thought, sure, if I just had my 10 cents from writing the rap on Black Or White that would have been better than nothing. But that was another person, that will be addressed also in the near future too in terms of people knowing about it. ...Well I mean you know it's Bill Bottrell. There was only one other person. It was Bill Bottrell.

https://youtu.be/axQI__bY5tA?t=3472

He (Bill Bottrell) did an interview in Musician Magazine or... I think it was Musician... were he said that "Bryan was uncomfortable doing the rap and so I did it". ...Ok. So the black kid from West Philly is uncomfortable doing a Rap? And the California white man was not? (laughs) That didn't make a lot of sense to me. To read it, you know it just didn't... I come from the culture, I come from the place were Rap was born. Rap was born in New York. I come from down the street in Philadelphia. I mean Rap was a part of my life, as a kid. I don't feel comfortable doing a rap? That's ridiculous. So, you know... That's the kind of stuff that was going on.

https://youtu.be/axQI__bY5tA?t=4772



So regarding writing the lyrics to the rap: Bryan rewrote what Bill had written. Bryan performed it, but then Bill performed it himself right after on the same day without Bryans knowledge.

Two questions here: Did Bill keep any of the rewritten elements Bryan contributed, for which he would deserve a co-writer credit? And secondly, did Michael even know that Bryan had recorded the rap?
 
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I never claim my theories to be true. That's your thing. ;)

Although this song was called "Black or White", things are not always just black or white.

Besides maybe Bryan's ego or politics spoiling things for him, it is still possible, that Michael simply preferred the clean neutral non-rapper "whiteness" (see the quotation marks) of Bill's rap performance (not necessarily the fact that he IS white) for the studio version of this song.

That's actually Bryan's theory (see mjcast interview), adding that the style of his own performance of the rap was more street (or so).

Then years later to have other rappers of other color (Bill also obviously was not a stage performer / rapper) do it in concerts doesn't necessarily contradict this, given the context of "it doesn't matter if your black or white".

Btw, some quotes from both about the BoW rap:

Bill Bottrell:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/classic-tracks-michael-jackson-black-or-white

Bryan Loren:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3146&v=axQI__bY5tA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3587&v=axQI__bY5tA

So regarding writing the lyrics to the rap: Bryan rewrote what Bill had written. Bryan performed it, but then Bill performed it himself right after on the same day without Bryans knowledge.

Two questions here: Did Bill keep any of the rewritten elements Bryan contributed, for which he would deserve a co-writer credit? And secondly, did Michael even know that Bryan had recorded the rap?

As long as we do not have the both versions of that rap section (the one written by Bill Bottrell & the rewritten one by Bryan Loren), your first question cannot be answered.

As for your second question, the answer is yes.

MJ knew that Bryan Loren had recorded that rap section because they were very close while working on that album, & Loren was telling him about everything that he was doing for that album (included his performing & recording of that rap section).
 
As long as we do not have the both versions of that rap section (the one written by Bill Bottrell & the rewritten one by Bryan Loren), your first question cannot be answered.

Wow, really....? :rolleyes:


As for your second question, the answer is yes.

MJ knew that Bryan Loren had recorded that rap section because they were very close while working on that album, & Loren was telling him about everything that he was doing for that album (included his performing & recording of that rap section).


Your speculation.

Mine:
We don't know at what exact point in time the recording of the BoW rap happened. If it was near the time that Bryan had enough and left, it's possible that this was not communicated.

And even if it wasn't around that time...
Bryan says in the MJcast interview (as quoted before):
"And when I came in to hear it a week or so later, it was their voice instead of mine. And I just assumed that meant ok, he just wanted to do it himself..."

In that situation (him just being meant to help out Bill to fix his rap, then leaving for some time, and then discovering that his rap was replaced), he doesn't seem like someone who then would have asked Michael "but did you hear my rap?".

And since Bryan only blames Bill for not being credited for the rap (quote: "it's also a story Michael is not reponsible for why I'm not credited there"), this indicates that the rap thing was all only between Bill and Bryan and Michael not knowing much about how it came to be.

Of course it's also possible that Michael did know about it all, and that Bill played Michael Bryans rap as well.
 
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I don't think Loren was close with mj beyond the songs he worked on with him. He greatly exaggerates.
 
Electro;4262703 said:
Wow, really....? :rolleyes:

Your speculation.

Mine:
We don't know at what exact point in time the recording of the BoW rap happened. If it was near the time that Bryan had enough and left, it's possible that this was not communicated.

And even if it wasn't around that time...
Bryan says in the MJcast interview (as quoted before):
"And when I came in to hear it a week or so later, it was their voice instead of mine. And I just assumed that meant ok, he just wanted to do it himself..."

In that situation (him just being meant to help out Bill to fix his rap, then leaving for some time, and then discovering that his rap was replaced), he doesn't seem like someone who then would have asked Michael "but did you hear my rap?".

And since Bryan only blames Bill for not being credited for the rap (quote: "it's also a story Michael is not reponsible for why I'm not credited there"), this indicates that the rap thing was all only between Bill and Bryan and Michael not knowing much about how it came to be.

Of course it's also possible that Michael did know about it all, and that Bill played Michael Bryans rap as well.

That is not my speculation.

‘Black Or White’ was of significant importance to MJ (as the first major single from the album), & MJ was fully aware of everything that was being submitted/recorded concerning that song (including all the rap performances of its rap section, like Loren’s one).

Besides, it would have been extremely risky for Bill Bottrell to hide such a thing from MJ (that Loren performed the rap) considering that Loren could very easily inform MJ, even after leaving the ‘Dangerous’ album project, that he performed the rap too.

SmoothGangsta;4262710 said:
I don't think Loren was close with mj beyond the songs he worked on with him. He greatly exaggerates.

Bryan Loren was close with MJ even beyond the songs he worked on with him, as highlighted by several incidents, like:

… I spent a great deal of enjoyable time with Michael… He did the backing chorus voices on ‘To Satisfy You’ from my ‘Music From The New World’ CD because I’d written it for him, for 'Dangerous'. When it was decided he wasn’t going to use it, I told him I wanted to keep his vocals and put it on my record. He said, ‘Of course’…” (Bryan Loren)

Otherwise, MJ here would not have given so eagerly his vocals to Loren’s album.
 
mj_frenzy;4262767 said:
That is not my speculation.

I was referring to this:

mj_frenzy;4262685 said:
MJ knew that Bryan Loren had recorded that rap section because they were very close while working on that album, & Loren was telling him about everything that he was doing for that album (included his performing & recording of that rap section).

That IS pure speculation based solely on Bryan claiming he was "close" with Michael. That's it. Your jumping to conclusions is out of control.



mj_frenzy;4262767 said:
‘Black Or White’ was of significant importance to MJ (as the first major single from the album), & MJ was fully aware of everything that was being submitted/recorded concerning that song (including all the rap performances of its rap section, like Loren’s one).

Likely, but still speculation (regarding the rap).



mj_frenzy;4262767 said:
Besides, it would have been extremely risky for Bill Bottrell to hide such a thing from MJ (that Loren performed the rap) considering that Loren could very easily inform MJ, even after leaving the ‘Dangerous’ album project, that he performed the rap too.

True, that's why it IS possible that Michael knew about it.

On the other hand it IS also possible that Michael did NOT know about it.
Or why would Bryan only blame Bill for not getting credit for the rap co-writing?
I mean if Bryan and Michael were SO super close that he would tell Michael about absolutely everything, as you say.
 
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