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Thread: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

   
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    Default Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    I can’t embed this link because I’m on my cell phone but it is an interview with Bill Bottrell. Interviewed at Abbey Road Institute in Paris. Talks MJ and their work and relationship from about 6:30- 11:30. This is somebody that really knew Michael deep down.

    Last edited by Anna; 06-07-2019 at 10:21 PM. Reason: embedded video


    "If you enter this world knowing you are loved and you leave this world knowing the same, then everything that happens in between can be dealt with" - Michael Jackson

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    I like Bill. He seems to speak well of Michael. I'd love to hear his Bahrain demo for Michael again, Why Can't You Hear Me, that's was a really catchy groove

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    I think this was posted before.

    Nice to see again though.

    I think Bill is my favourite collaborator of Michael's. The guitars and rock he brought just meshed so well with Michael's style.

    I'm sure Brad said Michael and Bill had a falling out.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    I didn't see it before. Thank you MJPoetryFan.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    I would like to hear one day what really happened regarding the rap section of ‘Black Or White’.

    So far, there are two different versions of that story.

    Bill Bottrell said that Bryan Loren was not comfortable being a rapper, so he rapped that section instead of Loren, & MJ liked his performance.

    But Bryan Loren provided a completely different version of the story & said that he was very comfortable being a rapper & also that he was the one who rapped & recorded the final version (approved by MJ) which was meant to make the album.

    But, much to Loren’s surprise, the rap section was eventually included on the album featuring Bottrell’s vocals.

    Bryan Loren suggested that the rap section with Bottrell’s vocals (that made the album) was a result of behind the scenes machinations, rather than a result of MJ’s preference.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    I would like to hear one day what really happened regarding the rap section of ‘Black Or White’.

    So far, there are two different versions of that story.

    Bill Bottrell said that Bryan Loren was not comfortable being a rapper, so he rapped that section instead of Loren, & MJ liked his performance.

    But Bryan Loren provided a completely different version of the story & said that he was very comfortable being a rapper & also that he was the one who rapped & recorded the final version (approved by MJ) which was meant to make the album.

    But, much to Loren’s surprise, the rap section was eventually included on the album featuring Bottrell’s vocals.

    Bryan Loren suggested that the rap section with Bottrell’s vocals (that made the album) was a result of behind the scenes machinations, rather than a result of MJ’s preference.
    I heard that ll cool j was supposed to rap on it but mj liked Bill's version so he kept it. I read that from a book i believe

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Here's the Bryan Loren MJCast interview where he talked about the BoW rap:




    I can imagine that ultimately Michael liked the "whiteness" of Bill's rap performance,
    as it fit the whole "it doesn't matter if black or white" topic.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

    When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.
    La la dee
    la la dee dah dah
    la la dah
    la la dah
    la la dah
    la...

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by muhammed View Post
    Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

    When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.
    It's not always all sunshine and bees and birds in the music biz. lol
    You can sense at some parts that Bryan has a bit of an ego, but still, his stories are insightful and (to me) believeable.
    And it's understandable that he wasn't happy how things went.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by muhammed View Post
    Honestly I don't know what to say regarding Bryan, he just soo much hate and bitterness by listening to that interview.

    When I first listened to that interview I had to pause for and take break's due to how bad that interview was getting lol.
    I was the exact same as well. He didn't come across very well during that interview, he was short with the interviewer and he had an enormous ego. But he could have just been having a bad day

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    As far as I remember Bryan Loren has been known to take credit for things and exaggerate his contributions in regards to mj. I don't consider him very trustworthy.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by wonderouzmj View Post
    I heard that ll cool j was supposed to rap on it but mj liked Bill's version so he kept it. I read that from a book i believe
    This is also included on Bill Bottrell’s version of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    I can imagine that ultimately Michael liked the "whiteness" of Bill's rap performance,
    as it fit the whole "it doesn't matter if black or white" topic.
    That theory is not true.

    If MJ ultimately liked the “whiteness” of Bill Bottrell’s rap performance & also wanted to get a message across through that (in accordance with the song’s topic), then he would not have used black guys to rap that section in the live performances of that song for the Dangerous Tour & the HIStory Tour.

    He would also have used white guys to rap that section live during those tours.

    Besides, MJ did not let people/fans know that the guy who raps that section (on the album) was a white guy because his identity was concealed under those three letters (L.T.B.).

    Bill Bottrell’s identity was revealed many years later (after the album’s initial release in 1991) by Bill Bottrell himself, not by MJ.

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    That theory is not true.
    I never claim my theories to be true. That's your thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    If MJ ultimately liked the “whiteness” of Bill Bottrell’s rap performance & also wanted to get a message across through that (in accordance with the song’s topic), then he would not have used black guys to rap that section in the live performances of that song for the Dangerous Tour & the HIStory Tour.

    He would also have used white guys to rap that section live during those tours.

    Besides, MJ did not let people/fans know that the guy who raps that section (on the album) was a white guy because his identity was concealed under those three letters (L.T.B.).

    Bill Bottrell’s identity was revealed many years later (after the album’s initial release in 1991) by Bill Bottrell himself, not by MJ.


    Although this song was called "Black or White", things are not always just black or white.

    Besides maybe Bryan's ego or politics spoiling things for him, it is still possible, that Michael simply preferred the clean neutral non-rapper "whiteness" (see the quotation marks) of Bill's rap performance (not necessarily the fact that he IS white) for the studio version of this song.

    That's actually Bryan's theory (see mjcast interview), adding that the style of his own performance of the rap was more street (or so).

    Then years later to have other rappers of other color (Bill also obviously was not a stage performer / rapper) do it in concerts doesn't necessarily contradict this, given the context of "it doesn't matter if your black or white".








    Btw, some quotes from both about the BoW rap:

    Bill Bottrell:

    "All the time I kept telling Michael that we had to have a rap, and he brought in rappers like LL Cool J and the Notorious BIG who were performing on other songs. Somehow, I didn't have access to them for 'Black Or White', and it was getting later and later and I wanted the song to be done. So, one day I wrote the rap — I woke up in the morning and, before my first cup of coffee, I began writing down what I was hearing, because the song had been in my head for about eight months by that time and it was an obssession to try and fill that last gap."

    It is interesting that Jackson left this task to Bottrell and didn't try to fill said gap himself. "That's the sort of thing he does," asserts Bottrell. "It seems kind of random, but it's as if he makes things happen through omission. There's nobody else, and it's as if he knows that's what you're up against and challenges you to do it. For my part, I didn't think much of white rap, so I brought in Bryan Loren to rap my words and he did change some of the rhythms, but he was not comfortable being a rapper. As a result, I performed it the same day after Bryan left, did several versions, fixed one, played it for Michael the next day and he went 'Ohhh, I love it Bill, I love it. That should be the one.' I kept saying 'No, we've got to get a real rapper,' but as soon as he heard my performance he was committed to it and wouldn't consider using anybody else."
    https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...black-or-white


    Bryan Loren:

    I actually did write, or co-write rather, Black Or White. I wrote the rap that's in Black Or White. Now, that's a story that's not very common. But it's also a story Michael is not reponsible for why I'm not credited there, and I'll just leave that there. There was another party. The other party is the one that I did the rap with. Because they had done it and didn't like it. I came in and I rewrote it and I actually performed it. And when I came in to hear it a week or so later, it was their voice instead of mine. And I just assumed that meant ok, he just wanted to do it himself, and he also homogenized it because I did the rap more like a rapper would do it. You know, all the same words, but it had more of an attitude when I did it. And he did it very straight. You know. And so I figured, ok maybe that's why he did it because he wanted to have that more neutral appeal. You know. But then when the record came out, I didn't have any credit. So I thought, sure, if I just had my 10 cents from writing the rap on Black Or White that would have been better than nothing. But that was another person, that will be addressed also in the near future too in terms of people knowing about it. ...Well I mean you know it's Bill Bottrell. There was only one other person. It was Bill Bottrell.
    https://youtu.be/axQI__bY5tA?t=3472

    He (Bill Bottrell) did an interview in Musician Magazine or... I think it was Musician... were he said that "Bryan was uncomfortable doing the rap and so I did it". ...Ok. So the black kid from West Philly is uncomfortable doing a Rap? And the California white man was not? (laughs) That didn't make a lot of sense to me. To read it, you know it just didn't... I come from the culture, I come from the place were Rap was born. Rap was born in New York. I come from down the street in Philadelphia. I mean Rap was a part of my life, as a kid. I don't feel comfortable doing a rap? That's ridiculous. So, you know... That's the kind of stuff that was going on.
    https://youtu.be/axQI__bY5tA?t=4772



    So regarding writing the lyrics to the rap: Bryan rewrote what Bill had written. Bryan performed it, but then Bill performed it himself right after on the same day without Bryans knowledge.

    Two questions here: Did Bill keep any of the rewritten elements Bryan contributed, for which he would deserve a co-writer credit? And secondly, did Michael even know that Bryan had recorded the rap?
    Last edited by Electro; 10-07-2019 at 03:25 PM. Reason: youtube links fixed

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    I never claim my theories to be true. That's your thing.

    Although this song was called "Black or White", things are not always just black or white.

    Besides maybe Bryan's ego or politics spoiling things for him, it is still possible, that Michael simply preferred the clean neutral non-rapper "whiteness" (see the quotation marks) of Bill's rap performance (not necessarily the fact that he IS white) for the studio version of this song.

    That's actually Bryan's theory (see mjcast interview), adding that the style of his own performance of the rap was more street (or so).

    Then years later to have other rappers of other color (Bill also obviously was not a stage performer / rapper) do it in concerts doesn't necessarily contradict this, given the context of "it doesn't matter if your black or white".

    Btw, some quotes from both about the BoW rap:

    Bill Bottrell:

    https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...black-or-white

    Bryan Loren:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=axQI__bY5tA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=axQI__bY5tA

    So regarding writing the lyrics to the rap: Bryan rewrote what Bill had written. Bryan performed it, but then Bill performed it himself right after on the same day without Bryans knowledge.

    Two questions here: Did Bill keep any of the rewritten elements Bryan contributed, for which he would deserve a co-writer credit? And secondly, did Michael even know that Bryan had recorded the rap?
    As long as we do not have the both versions of that rap section (the one written by Bill Bottrell & the rewritten one by Bryan Loren), your first question cannot be answered.

    As for your second question, the answer is yes.

    MJ knew that Bryan Loren had recorded that rap section because they were very close while working on that album, & Loren was telling him about everything that he was doing for that album (included his performing & recording of that rap section).

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    Default Re: Bill Bottrell talks MJ (YouTube video)

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    As long as we do not have the both versions of that rap section (the one written by Bill Bottrell & the rewritten one by Bryan Loren), your first question cannot be answered.
    Wow, really....?


    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    As for your second question, the answer is yes.

    MJ knew that Bryan Loren had recorded that rap section because they were very close while working on that album, & Loren was telling him about everything that he was doing for that album (included his performing & recording of that rap section).

    Your speculation.

    Mine:
    We don't know at what exact point in time the recording of the BoW rap happened. If it was near the time that Bryan had enough and left, it's possible that this was not communicated.

    And even if it wasn't around that time...
    Bryan says in the MJcast interview (as quoted before):
    "And when I came in to hear it a week or so later, it was their voice instead of mine. And I just assumed that meant ok, he just wanted to do it himself..."

    In that situation (him just being meant to help out Bill to fix his rap, then leaving for some time, and then discovering that his rap was replaced), he doesn't seem like someone who then would have asked Michael "but did you hear my rap?".

    And since Bryan only blames Bill for not being credited for the rap (quote: "it's also a story Michael is not reponsible for why I'm not credited there"), this indicates that the rap thing was all only between Bill and Bryan and Michael not knowing much about how it came to be.

    Of course it's also possible that Michael did know about it all, and that Bill played Michael Bryans rap as well.
    Last edited by Electro; 10-07-2019 at 02:13 PM.

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