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Thread: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

   
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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    I want a new album or at least a bunch of new singles.
    I'll take anything haha

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    I’d take stuff in any condition. Ultimate collection style where he’s just mumbling. I love those songs though the melodies are incredible.

    I just want something that’s not fake vocals or awfully dated “modern” remixes. Don’t think that’s too much to ask for honestly. Fans not liking the estate isn’t undeserved either.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Quantity does not translate into quality here.

    A large part of that posthumously released material from the Michael Jackson’s Estate consists of contemporizations, remixed versions, songs with incomplete Michael Jackson's vocals, songs with inauthentic Michael Jackson's vocals, compilations of previously released material, and so on.
    Of course, but quantity is the issue at hand. There are plenty of warranted (and unwarranted) complaints to make as to the quality of the Estate's projects, but to insinuate that such projects are in any way lacking in terms of presented material is absurd.

    The Estate, between 2009 and 2019, has published 24 songs (of which 18 were never-before-released and 15 were presented in their original, unaltered form), a documentary chronicling rehearsals for the ill-fated This Is It, a documentary imbued with exclusive behind the scenes footage from the Bad era, a DVD of what many consider to be the best show of the Bad tour, and the first Michael Jackson live album.

    None of these projects are without blemish, but they represent one of the most extensive posthumous catalogs ever. Very few deceased artists receive such far-reaching treatment and, while no one is required to purchase/support them, it is ridiculous to demand more simply because YOU didn't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by IMWhizzle View Post
    Michael himself told in interview he recorded 100+ songs for every album. So I don’t believe the rumors that his vault is empty. Don’t know where this rumor came from. The BAD album alone was supposed to be a triple album. There is so much left, finished or unfinished. For invincible alone there is so much left in finished state that you can fill a whole album and release it.

    It’s so obvious that the estate released songs which were leaked online before and then some. They have enough left. But they play the lazy annoying game.
    Recording 100+ songs =/= finishing 100+ songs.

    Nearly every one of Michael's collaborators, from studio technicians to musicians to songwriters, have established that the overwhelming majority of existing material lacks usable vocals. Completed material is scarce, and half-finished songs with scratch vocals are of use only to the dedicated among us and won't foster any good business with the general public. I believe it was Matt Forger who stated that there are perhaps 15-18 songs with finished vocals left; no wonder the Estate pads out albums with previously leaked albums.

    That's not even addressing the numerous songs that the estate either doesn't have (e.g., the Bahrain sessions) or cannot release (e.g., the will.i.am tracks, anything with Quincy Jones).

    The Estate doesn't have a lot left. That's a verified fact from numerous people outside the Estate who have more first-hand knowledge of you or I.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Your getting a Broadway show, that’s it,enjoy if you can make the trip.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    cannot release (e.g., ... anything with Quincy Jones).
    Why would that be at this point?

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    Default Prince

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    Even with the new Prince project, you're still required to buy an album you've already heard to gain access to the material you haven't.
    There's a rumor that a couple of the recent Prince releases came from a cassette source and not a master tape. The piano album was confirmed to come from cassette and one of the songs was used for the Spike Lee movie BlacKkKlansman. It was just Prince practicing, not something intended for release. There's supposed to be hundreds of these cassettes of things not studio recorded. It's been said the unreleased songs on the Purple Rain reissue came from cassette too. I don't know if that's true or not. But there is a skip or drop out on Erotic City that's not on the original single.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    He wrote a lot of songs for each album. He didn't properly record all of them. And no way he recorded 100 songs for every album, that's nuts. And that contradicts what he said in the Mexico deposition. Most of the stuff he recorded that wasn't used wouldn't have good enough vocals or any vocals suitable for release.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    Of course, but quantity is the issue at hand. There are plenty of warranted (and unwarranted) complaints to make as to the quality of the Estate's projects, but to insinuate that such projects are in any way lacking in terms of presented material is absurd.

    The Estate, between 2009 and 2019, has published 24 songs (of which 18 were never-before-released and 15 were presented in their original, unaltered form), a documentary chronicling rehearsals for the ill-fated This Is It, a documentary imbued with exclusive behind the scenes footage from the Bad era, a DVD of what many consider to be the best show of the Bad tour, and the first Michael Jackson live album.

    None of these projects are without blemish, but they represent one of the most extensive posthumous catalogs ever. Very few deceased artists receive such far-reaching treatment and, while no one is required to purchase/support them, it is ridiculous to demand more simply because YOU didn't like them.

    Recording 100+ songs =/= finishing 100+ songs.

    Nearly every one of Michael's collaborators, from studio technicians to musicians to songwriters, have established that the overwhelming majority of existing material lacks usable vocals. Completed material is scarce, and half-finished songs with scratch vocals are of use only to the dedicated among us and won't foster any good business with the general public. I believe it was Matt Forger who stated that there are perhaps 15-18 songs with finished vocals left; no wonder the Estate pads out albums with previously leaked albums.

    That's not even addressing the numerous songs that the estate either doesn't have (e.g., the Bahrain sessions) or cannot release (e.g., the will.i.am tracks, anything with Quincy Jones).

    The Estate doesn't have a lot left. That's a verified fact from numerous people outside the Estate who have more first-hand knowledge of you or I.
    The Mexico deposition should not be considered a good source for getting that kind of information because his mental condition was in really bad shape.

    Michael Jackson revealed in the ‘Killer Thriller’ speech in 2002 that he writes at least 120 songs for each album and he also implied that he records them too (as he said at that event, he can choose any of them at any given time for a possible, future release).

    Also, Matt Forger said specifically that Michael Jackson was in the habit of recording many songs for each album and then put most of them on the shelf (this also clearly implies a lot of outtakes generally with finished vocals, not just 15-18).

    Michael Jackson used to record many songs, especially before the direction of a certain studio album began to shape (as confirmed also by Bruce Swedien).

    The ‘Invincible’ sessions in particular (that spanned over a period of nearly 4 years) have still a lot of unheard, nearly completed tracks to offer (even though many of them lack the final mix, but they have almost full vocals).

    People who were present at some of those ‘Invincible’ sessions have confirmed that, too (like, Sisqó, or Puff Daddy, among others).

    When Michael Jackson died, the rights to most of those unheard tracks automatically reverted back to his Estate (as it is the legal norm in such cases), meaning that the Estate has them and can also release them.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    Why would that be at this point?
    Quincy sued the Estate and received a fraction of what he sought, not to mention the fact that (barring archive footage) he was absent from the Off the Wall and Bad documentaries. He'll likely never willingly collaborate with them.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    I just want them to decrease the prices of Michael Jackson stuff, especially in India, however I have made a small collection of my own by sales and pocket money.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    mj_frenzy, you've said that "Adore You" was a lost song (it isn't), that Bruce Swedien didn't mix "Scream" (he did, in collaboration with Steve Hodge), that "Fall Again" wasn't finished because Prince got sick (only partially true), that "Shut Up and Dance" was at least partially recorded (it's not), and several other insufficient claims.

    You have a tendency of sharing incorrect information, then lashing out at users who question you (as made evident by your post history). While I'm far from innocent in terms of temper, there's really no need for it and it only muddies the waters.

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Michael Jackson revealed in the ‘Killer Thriller’ speech in 2002 that he writes at least 120 songs for each album and he also implied that he records them too (as he said at that event, he can choose any of them at any given time for a possible, future release).

    Also, Matt Forger said specifically that Michael Jackson was in the habit of recording many songs for each album and then put most of them on the shelf (this also clearly implies a lot of outtakes generally with finished vocals, not just 15-18).
    You're working entirely off implications, all of which are erroneous and contradict explicit statements given by individuals with first-hand knowledge (such as Forger stating before a crowd that one album's worth of finished music exists).

    Michael claimed he was working vigorously on new music between 2006-9, even though we now know that very little usable material exists from this period.

    Michael Jackson used to record many songs, especially before the direction of a certain studio album began to shape (as confirmed also by Bruce Swedien).
    Swedien also was not involved in the Hayvenhurst sessions; was absent for the bulk of the Invincible sessions, only being involved for a total of 3-4 months and almost exclusively mixing existing songs as opposed to recording new ones; couldn't identify "I'm So Blue" or "Abortion Papers" when prompted; and once claimed that only 1-2 outtakes existed per album. All due respect, but his expertise is limited.

    The ‘Invincible’ sessions in particular (that spanned over a period of nearly 4 years) have still a lot of unheard, nearly completed tracks to offer (even though many of them lack the final mix, but they have almost full vocals).

    People who were present at some of those ‘Invincible’ sessions have confirmed that, too (like, Sisqó, or Puff Daddy, among others).
    Are you using the US Copyright Office as a source? Bear in mind that an overwhelming number of registered titles (e.g., "Gloucestershire," "Monster," "Jungle," "Adore You," "Bottom of My Heart," "Remember What I Told You," "Rocker," "H2O") lack usable vocals, so it is by no means a credible gauge of certain songs/albums.

    Sisqó spoke in 2000 about a potential collaboration that (so far as we know) was unrealized, and Diddy revealed they worked on an unfinished song in 2001. That's it.

    Not sure who these "people" you speak of are, since Brad Buxer, Michael Prince, Matt Forger, Damien Shields, Joe Vogel, and others -- all of whom have extensive personal experience of various eras' worth of material, including the Invincible sessions -- have stated that the vault is not nearly as full as people think.

    When Michael Jackson died, the rights to most of those unheard tracks automatically reverted back to his Estate (as it is the legal norm in such cases), meaning that the Estate has them and can also release them.
    The Estate has free reign over Michael's self-created material, but anything with additional writers and/or producers requires negotiation and legal consent from all contributors. That's why Steve Porcaro was able to keep "Chicago 1945" off Xscape, and why we have yet to hear a single will.i.am song.

    Also, the Estate doesn't have everything. Plenty of people (including Korgnex) can confirm that certain things are in the hands of people unwilling to play ball with the current executors.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    Quincy sued the Estate and received a fraction of what he sought, not to mention the fact that (barring archive footage) he was absent from the Off the Wall and Bad documentaries. He'll likely never willingly collaborate with them.
    I was about to say that it's kind of normal, that the amounts people sue for usually are never what's getting paid in the end.
    Bad 25 was in 2012, Off The Wall doku was 2016. Quincys lawsuit went from 2013 to 2017. So things should be good now.

    But then I read this article again... so yes, going by the quotes from both sides, it doesn't sound too good, in terms of them working together again. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...estate-113207/

    But then again you never know, it's just business after all.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    I was about to say that it's kind of normal, that the amounts people sue for usually are never what's getting paid in the end.
    Bad 25 was in 2012, Off The Wall doku was 2016. Quincys lawsuit went from 2013 to 2017. So things should be good now.

    But then I read this article again... so yes, going by the quotes from both sides, it doesn't sound too good, in terms of them working together again. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...estate-113207/

    But then again you never know, it's just business after all.
    Quincy has become something of a grouch in his old age based on his recent commentary. I wouldn't be surprised if he was holding a grudge that he didn't get the full $30 million.

    But you're right -- money talks, and anything could happen.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    mj_frenzy, you've said that "Adore You" was a lost song (it isn't), that Bruce Swedien didn't mix "Scream" (he did, in collaboration with Steve Hodge), that "Fall Again" wasn't finished because Prince got sick (only partially true), that "Shut Up and Dance" was at least partially recorded (it's not), and several other insufficient claims.

    You have a tendency of sharing incorrect information, then lashing out at users who question you (as made evident by your post history). While I'm far from innocent in terms of temper, there's really no need for it and it only muddies the waters.

    You're working entirely off implications, all of which are erroneous and contradict explicit statements given by individuals with first-hand knowledge (such as Forger stating before a crowd that one album's worth of finished music exists).

    Michael claimed he was working vigorously on new music between 2006-9, even though we now know that very little usable material exists from this period.

    Swedien also was not involved in the Hayvenhurst sessions; was absent for the bulk of the Invincible sessions, only being involved for a total of 3-4 months and almost exclusively mixing existing songs as opposed to recording new ones; couldn't identify "I'm So Blue" or "Abortion Papers" when prompted; and once claimed that only 1-2 outtakes existed per album. All due respect, but his expertise is limited.

    Are you using the US Copyright Office as a source? Bear in mind that an overwhelming number of registered titles (e.g., "Gloucestershire," "Monster," "Jungle," "Adore You," "Bottom of My Heart," "Remember What I Told You," "Rocker," "H2O") lack usable vocals, so it is by no means a credible gauge of certain songs/albums.

    Sisqó spoke in 2000 about a potential collaboration that (so far as we know) was unrealized, and Diddy revealed they worked on an unfinished song in 2001. That's it.

    Not sure who these "people" you speak of are, since Brad Buxer, Michael Prince, Matt Forger, Damien Shields, Joe Vogel, and others -- all of whom have extensive personal experience of various eras' worth of material, including the Invincible sessions -- have stated that the vault is not nearly as full as people think.

    The Estate has free reign over Michael's self-created material, but anything with additional writers and/or producers requires negotiation and legal consent from all contributors. That's why Steve Porcaro was able to keep "Chicago 1945" off Xscape, and why we have yet to hear a single will.i.am song.

    Also, the Estate doesn't have everything. Plenty of people (including Korgnex) can confirm that certain things are in the hands of people unwilling to play ball with the current executors.
    Tommy Mottola said at some point that the plans of the Estate and Sony about Michael Jackson’s posthumous releases are based on a long-term basis.

    They aim actually to surpass the longevity of Elvis Presley’s posthumous releases.

    He said that because he also knows about the existence of dozens and dozens of outtakes from each of Michael Jackson’s studio album.

    Bruce Swedien did not mix the ‘Scream’ song (he was asked by a student if he mixed that song, at Full Sail University in Florida, and he gave a negative answer).

    Also, Bruce Swedien said (on other occasions) that Michael Jackson used to record many songs for each album and then to choose the ones that would fit the album’s cohesion and drama (which means a lot of outtakes from each album).

    According to fan magazines from the ‘Invincible’ era, Sisqó at one point (during the ‘Invincible’ sessions) talked about over 70 nearly completed songs for that album.

    Puff Daddy, around that time, also talked about a large number of songs meant for the ‘Invincible’ album.

    Rodney Jerkins also said that during those sessions they had sometimes to begin from scratch with new sets of new songs each time, abandoning many already recorded songs meant for that album.

    It goes without saying that anything with additional writers and/or producers requires negotiation and legal consent from all contributors, but so far his Estate proved that can overcome (to a degree) such legal impediments when it comes to new posthumous releases.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by mj_frenzy View Post
    Tommy Mottola said at some point that the plans of the Estate and Sony about Michael Jackson’s posthumous releases are based on a long-term basis.

    They aim actually to surpass the longevity of Elvis Presley’s posthumous releases.

    He said that because he also knows about the existence of dozens and dozens of outtakes from each of Michael Jackson’s studio album.
    Of course the Estate aims for longevity; they've admitted as much themselves.

    Mottola has spoken about the vault on very few occasions, most of which took place immediately after Michael's death, and offered little more than standard obscurities (e.g., "There was always over-recording," "These are hidden gems") without ever commenting on the state of said material.

    Even so, I'm keen to take the word of studio technicians who heard nearly everything, over a former label head who only heard what Michael wanted him to hear.

    Bruce Swedien did not mix the ‘Scream’ song (he was asked by a student if he mixed that song, at Full Sail University in Florida, and he gave a negative answer).
    I know Jam and Lewis brought in their own

    Also, Bruce Swedien said (on other occasions) that Michael Jackson used to record many songs for each album and then to choose the ones that would fit the album’s cohesion and drama (which means a lot of outtakes from each album).
    Once again, for emphasis: recording many songs =/= finishing many songs.

    No one is questioning the certainty that Michael created an overabundance of material for each album. But the notion that this in any way implies finished recordings is absolutely erroneous, especially considering

    According to fan magazines from the ‘Invincible’ era, Sisqó at one point (during the ‘Invincible’ sessions) talked about over 70 nearly completed songs for that album.
    According to fan magazines, Michael also recorded a cover of "Strawberry Fields Forever" in 1989, and recorded two songs ("Angel," "Do You Love Me") with Babyface in 1998. Not a single corroborating source has been able to verify any of these songs existing.

    How would Sisqó be privy to such information? Did Michael tell him? Did he hear all seventy nearly-completed songs? Or did overzealous fans hear him mention a wealth of songs and exaggerate the living hell out of it?

    Puff Daddy, around that time, also talked about a large number of songs meant for the ‘Invincible’ album.
    Mind sharing your source?

    Rodney Jerkins also said that during those sessions they had sometimes to begin from scratch with new sets of new songs each time, abandoning many already recorded songs meant for that album.
    Already recorded =/= vocally finished.

    It goes without saying that anything with additional writers and/or producers requires negotiation and legal consent from all contributors, but so far his Estate proved that can overcome (to a degree) such legal impediments when it comes to new posthumous releases.
    The Estate overcame several of these impediments because the respective collaborators were willing to sign off on their material being used. Had they been as successful with Steve Porcaro and will.i.am, we'd have their songs. But no business is willing to undergo unnecessary legal battles.

    I am truly in awe of this argument.

    Fact of the matter is, every single person with express knowledge of Michael's vault has confirmed that material is scarce. It doesn't matter what implications Bruce Swedien or Tommy Mottola or countless others made. You cannot convince me that Brad Buxer, Michael Prince, Matt Forger, Brad Sundberg, Damien Shields, and Epic executive Vice President Scott Sevior all stated that there are less than 30 songs remaining. You've also conveniently side-stepped nearly every point I made discrediting some of your points.

    The fan community is already knee-deep in confusion over the vault, and misinformation such as yours is only worsening things.

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    Default Re: What do you want to see from the Estate? (fans wishlist thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysThere View Post
    Of course the Estate aims for longevity; they've admitted as much themselves.

    Mottola has spoken about the vault on very few occasions, most of which took place immediately after Michael's death, and offered little more than standard obscurities (e.g., "There was always over-recording," "These are hidden gems") without ever commenting on the state of said material.

    Even so, I'm keen to take the word of studio technicians who heard nearly everything, over a former label head who only heard what Michael wanted him to hear.

    I know Jam and Lewis brought in their own

    Once again, for emphasis: recording many songs =/= finishing many songs.

    No one is questioning the certainty that Michael created an overabundance of material for each album. But the notion that this in any way implies finished recordings is absolutely erroneous, especially considering

    According to fan magazines, Michael also recorded a cover of "Strawberry Fields Forever" in 1989, and recorded two songs ("Angel," "Do You Love Me") with Babyface in 1998. Not a single corroborating source has been able to verify any of these songs existing.

    How would Sisqó be privy to such information? Did Michael tell him? Did he hear all seventy nearly-completed songs? Or did overzealous fans hear him mention a wealth of songs and exaggerate the living hell out of it?

    Mind sharing your source?

    Already recorded =/= vocally finished.

    The Estate overcame several of these impediments because the respective collaborators were willing to sign off on their material being used. Had they been as successful with Steve Porcaro and will.i.am, we'd have their songs. But no business is willing to undergo unnecessary legal battles.

    I am truly in awe of this argument.

    Fact of the matter is, every single person with express knowledge of Michael's vault has confirmed that material is scarce. It doesn't matter what implications Bruce Swedien or Tommy Mottola or countless others made. You cannot convince me that Brad Buxer, Michael Prince, Matt Forger, Brad Sundberg, Damien Shields, and Epic executive Vice President Scott Sevior all stated that there are less than 30 songs remaining. You've also conveniently side-stepped nearly every point I made discrediting some of your points.

    The fan community is already knee-deep in confusion over the vault, and misinformation such as yours is only worsening things.
    I have noticed that you contradict yourself on certain things.

    For example, you said (few years ago) about Joseph Vogel that he is not the most reliable outlet on Michael Jackson.

    Now, you say about him that he is one of them who have extensive personal experience of various eras' worth of material, including the ‘Invincible’ sessions (and they also believe that the vault is not nearly as full as people think).

    Also, I have not conveniently side-stepped your points that, according to you, discredit some of my points.

    My information (about them) is just different than yours, and since we both were not physically present at those recording sessions, then my information is as valid as your information.

    Puff Daddy’s words appeared on several news reports back then (the links to those sources are no longer available) and he expressed his amazement about the fact that Michael Jackson over-recorded so many songs in general for the ‘Invincible’ album.

    Sisqó was very close to Michael Jackson, that is why he got such private information about the nearly completed, unreleased stuff of the ‘Invincible’ album.

    They were so close to each other that Michael Jackson gave to him one of his own songs (via Teddy Riley) for Sisqó’s studio album.

    It appears also that, for some reason, studio engineers and technicians are not really allowed by the Estate to reveal a bigger number of unreleased songs stored in Michael Jackson’s vault.

    Remember for example, at one point in the past, Brad Sundberg said that although he knows that many unreleased songs still exist, yet he refused to give additional information about them when he was asked.

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