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Thread: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

   
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    Default A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?


    Well gang, it's been a year since the press and Dan Reed started planting the rumblings of the shit-storm that would soon commence in March of 2019. Needless to say, it's been a ride...

    But given that it's been a year since this all began - I figured a discussion about where you are at as a fan is and where you think the public pulse is would be relevant.

    So, all in all - how are you feeling about the documentary situation? Hopeful? Vindicated? Negative?

    What do you think the pulse is on Jackson in terms of his legacy, whether people believe the documentary/allegations as a whole, etc.? Has the documentary been discredited at large or do you feel it's still widely believed?

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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    I'm still a fan and always we be. as so my mom. we not done yet dude. (if you a dude if not sorry.) we still got trials on the way. I feel at the end of the day it's what people should think. both me and my mom believes Michael is innocent. now at the end the day if any still feels he's guilty they have the right too. i'm not gonna make anyone believes he innocent. I mean he is but i'm not gonna harass anyone who believes he's guilty.

    most people who believes he's guilty are nothing but haters etc. now i wouldn't call everyone who believes he guilty a hater etc. that's what they believe and just let them.

    i actually lost some friends who believes he's guilty.

    i think widely people believes he's innocent while the general public don't really care. last year Michael music streamed big. what that tell you?

    we not done yet though.



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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    I'm really hoping this year we be the year were everybody say sorry to Michael, his friends, his fans, and family. with all the docs coming out this year and trials i just hope and pray we will win. we kind of already won. but not quite yet.



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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureCriminal7896 View Post
    now at the end the day if any still feels he's guilty they have the right too.
    No, they don’t. The presumption of innocence is a human right.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    it's a human right but people don't have agree with it. you see what i mean?

    I believe this poor man is innocent but i'm not gonna harass anyone who doesn't. we only hope these trials win.



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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureCriminal7896 View Post
    it's a human right but people don't have agree with it. you see what i mean?

    I believe this poor man is innocent but i'm not gonna harass anyone who doesn't. we only hope these trials win.
    I have to disagree here. People don’t get to “believe” if someone’s guilty or innocent, because that’s how lynch mobs start, and this is precisely why we have laws, courts, judges, and juries. There is no evidence and the story should have ended right there. And honestly, I really don’t want to discuss that BS on a fan forum.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScreenOrigami View Post
    I have to disagree here. People don’t get to “believe” if someone’s guilty or innocent, because that’s how lynch mobs start, and this is precisely why we have laws, courts, judges, and juries. There is no evidence and the story should have ended right there. And honestly, I really don’t want to discuss that BS on a fan forum.
    Except the US justice system is flawed and corrupt and people know it. Innocent people end up on death row and people like OJ Simpson walk free. 'Not guilty' is not the same thing as 'innocent' if the case doesn't have concrete evidence to definitively prove innocence, which is typically the case with things like alleged abuse. 'Not guilty' often just means reasonable doubt. So people will always draw their own conclusions from cases like that. It's just human nature. They're entitled to believe he's guilty, as long as that belief doesn't extend to negative behaviour — since they can't prove he's guilty. And we're entitled to believe he is innocent, but we can't prove it either. All any of us have is our beliefs when the evidence can't prove otherwise either way.


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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    The lynch mob mentality is the root of the flawed US justice system. It’s important to change that mindset, if you want a change for the better.

    The presumption of innocence is a human right, and it’s better that a guilty person walks free than that an innocent person ends up in prison. That’s the risk you must take. Maybe OJ walked free because mistakes were made. (*) There were no mistakes made in MJ’s case, he won in a landslide victory and is to be presumed innocent. You can’t just say that because one guilty man wasn’t convicted, we’re entitled to judge everyone else who wasn’t convicted in the court of public opinion. That’s not how it works.

    Things are very different here in Germany, and honestly what’s going on in the USA & UK is beyond disgusting.


    * EDIT: I added the “maybe” because I’m really not educated enough on the OJ case to know for sure.
    Last edited by ScreenOrigami; 11-01-2020 at 02:11 PM.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScreenOrigami View Post
    The lynch mob mentality is the root of the flawed US justice system. It’s important to change that mindset, if you want a change for the better.

    The presumption of innocence is a human right, and it’s better that a guilty person walks free than that an innocent person ends up in prison. That’s the risk you must take. OJ walked free because mistakes were made. There were no mistakes made in MJ’s case, he won in a landslide victory and is to be presumed innocent. You can’t just say that because one guilty man wasn’t convicted, we’re entitled to judge everyone else who wasn’t convicted in the court of public opinion. That’s not how it works.

    Things are very different here in Germany, and honestly what’s going on in the USA & UK is beyond disgusting.
    OJ Simpson was just a famous example to illustrate my point, he's certainly not the only case. The point is that people don't trust the justice system in America for good reason. And you can't blame people for believing MJ is guilty when there's been decades of brainwashing from the media, multiple accusers, and Michael's own behaviour really didn't help either. Behaviour that he continued even after being burned the first time.


    Back on topic, LN hasn't been widely discredited outside of the fan communities on social media and YouTube. Generally, public opinion at this point seems to be either disinterest in the whole thing or that he's probably guilty. LN did significant damage and I don't see his image being restored unless something major happens in uncovering the truth.


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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    I agree that 'belief' is a troubling word. Like 'belief' in anything, it depends on whether the belief is based on evidence and facts or 'feelings'. The 'After Neverland' Oprah show majored on 'feeling', and attempted to ramp up belief in MJ's guilt on that basis.

    When 'belief based on feelings' goes on to become 'cancel culture', it's problematic. Radio stations removed MJ airplay, shops removed MJ apparel. In that sense, I don't agree that in culture, 'belief (eg of victims) based on feelings' should override 'evidence'.

    I've been impressed with the anecdotal evidence on social media that numbers of people who originally 'believed' LN have done research and now 'believe the evidence' that MJ is innocent. It feels as if the pre-LN population that always 'thought MJ might be guilty' generally continue to look for information that confirms their bias. I suspect that people who changed their minds maybe didn't feel strongly either way before.

    Overall, LN has had the effect of bringing a lot of fans together on social media, and several excellent and factually-informative MJ docs have been produced and received good numbers of (but not numerically overwhelming) viewings. It's good that all the facts are now 'out there'; the question is will people who are 'anti-MJ' be interested to look into those facts? My gut feeling (!) is 'No'. Sadly, I don't think the anti-MJ press will turn their views around, even after Wade and James cases are 'most likely' thrown out of court. They will always come up with excuses as to why the court cases don't succeed, and why MJ's former child friends (like Macauley) continue to defend him.

    I'm guessing that no-one else will be stupid enough to make up abuse stories about MJ, so I'm hoping that one good outcome is that no more opportunists / extortionists will appear.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    OJ Simpson was just a famous example to illustrate my point, he's certainly not the only case. The point is that people don't trust the justice system in America for good reason. And you can't blame people for believing MJ is guilty when there's been decades of brainwashing from the media, multiple accusers, and Michael's own behaviour really didn't help either. Behaviour that he continued even after being burned the first time.
    This is why it has to change, and it can only change with a change of each and every person’s mindset. Those who are not “brainwashed” need to stand up and fight for what is right, and not try to find excuses for the public’s unethical behavior. Nothing will ever change if we remain silent. Silence helps injustice to continue.

    I also don’t think that this is off topic, because that’s exactly how I feel a year after.

    Things need to change at the root of the problem, so something like this can never happen again. And the public’s willful disregard of the presumption of innocence is the very root of the problem. Because if people would get that right, there would be no way for the media to “brainwash” them into convicting an innocent man in the court of public opinion.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by myosotis View Post
    I'm guessing that no-one else will be stupid enough to make up abuse stories about MJ, so I'm hoping that one good outcome is that no more opportunists / extortionists will appear.
    I think so too. And time is another thing we have on our side, because the further we get from MJ's death, the more ridiculous it looks for someone to suddenly come forward and say they were abused. It should be very telling for anybody paying attention to this circus that no one else has come forward since LN. Reed was expecting a wave of new accusers. The trouble is that only happens when abuse has actually happened!


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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    I think so too. And time is another thing we have on our side, because the further we get from MJ's death, the more ridiculous it looks for someone to suddenly come forward and say they were abused. It should be very telling for anybody paying attention to this circus that no one else has come forward since LN. Reed was expecting a wave of new accusers. The trouble is that only happens when abuse has actually happened!
    Yep, in the long run, Reed may have done us a favor actually. The claims made in his fantasy movie were just too ridiculous for thinking people to swallow unquestioned.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Now in hindsight, I think it's very sad that Michael had sleepovers in his bedroom at Neverland and hotels in the first place, no matter how innocent it was, that he slept on the floor in later part of his life and that most friends near to him and relatives understood him and the whole practice. He should have understood that people in general think in their minds something sexual when it comes to bed and it is considered a tabu and inappropriate thing in regular society. Had he say yes to Diane Sawyers question about ceasing with to have sleepovers at Neverland and really did so, he wouldn't have the grifter Gavin sleeping in the same bedroom as he did five years later after the interview in 1995.

    And while I feel it is unlikely, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else in future make a claim and sues the Estate for the same thing as Wade & James, especially someone who also did have a sleepover at Michael's place in the past. But on the other hand I am so glad to see so many youth friends of Michael like Barnes, Culkin, Spence and Feldman stood up in defense for him after the documentary. Not what Reed definitely had expected.
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    Default Re: A Year Since 'Leaving Neverland' First Hit Headlines - How do you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by myosotis View Post
    I agree that 'belief' is a troubling word. Like 'belief' in anything, it depends on whether the belief is based on evidence and facts or 'feelings'. The 'After Neverland' Oprah show majored on 'feeling', and attempted to ramp up belief in MJ's guilt on that basis.
    A great video to show people, who tend to “believe” the allegations, is The Gutter Monkey’s:



    Quote Originally Posted by myosotis View Post
    several excellent and factually-informative MJ docs have been produced and received good numbers of (but not numerically overwhelming) viewings.
    The good thing is, when someone looks up LN on YouTube, they’ll find LN itself and around 20 rebuttals. LN is 4 hours long. I would guess that now, before someone sits through the entire thing, they’ll probably look into the rebuttals to see if it’s even worth their time.

    I assume that most people of the general public will only watch on or two of those, so the number of people who actually watched at least one of them will be greater than the number of any individual video.

    Quote Originally Posted by myosotis View Post
    It's good that all the facts are now 'out there'; the question is will people who are 'anti-MJ' be interested to look into those facts? My gut feeling (!) is 'No'. Sadly, I don't think the anti-MJ press will turn their views around, even after Wade and James cases are 'most likely' thrown out of court. They will always come up with excuses as to why the court cases don't succeed, and why MJ's former child friends (like Macauley) continue to defend him.
    The anti-MJ people are just like any anti-something people out there. As a vegan, I’ve met the anti-vegan cult (yes, anti-vegans exist!), and it’s the same thing. Stupid, stubborn, or downright evil people won’t change their mind, because they’re building their entire existence on hate.

    And the media will write whatever makes money. Again, it needs a shift of the public’s mindset to stop buying the lies.
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