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Thread: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

   
  1. #16
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    Default Re: influences

    Quote Originally Posted by DuranDuran View Post
    Performers have been using parts of other songs long before samplers, hip hop, or interpolations existed. Like Led Zeppelin copying music and/or lyrics from old blues songs but calling the song something else and not crediting the original writers. In the 1970s, James Brown copied the guitar riff from David Bowie's Fame on his song Hot. James also based the alternate (radio station call letters) version of Damn Right I Am Somebody on Al Green's Love And Happiness. What Led Zeppelin & James Brown did wasn't called sampling. There's a 1960s song by Barbara Acklin called Am I The Same Girl. Young-Holt Unlimited released an instrumental version around the same time, but they called it Soulful Strut.

    Also answer songs have been a thing in music since at least the 1940s. Answer songs are a response to another song, usually a popular hit. The answer song often sounded similar to the original song so that the listener could connect the reply version to the original. Like Superstar by Lydia Murdock is a reply to Billie Jean. There's also a lot of soundalike songs and they weren't called sampling. Some genres even have a generic sound in which many songs sound similar to each other (blues, Tejano, house, reggae, salsa, disco, polka, 1960s Motown, etc.).

    The chorus on The Jacksons' Shake Your Body is based on a chant from the long version of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up. Randy Jackson did an interview with Questlove around a year ago and he said that the rhythm of All Night Dancin' came from Harvest For The World by The Isley Brothers. If you listen, All Night Dancin' is just sped up from the original song.


    Listen to these short segments on these 2 songs:
    (0:29) Earth Wind & Fire ~ Jupiter (1977)

    (0:55) The Jacksons ~ Things I Do For You (1978)
    I'm not quite sure what this is suppose to prove. This seems more like semantics than anything else. Sampling and interpolations are just words used to describe the phenomenon of borrowing elements from another song in modern context. I don't think it's more complicated.
    Last edited by Themidwestcowboy; 22-02-2020 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Whenever someone says "Replay sample", then they don't understand the meaning of sampling.
    Might be due to not knowing how this works technically.

    There simply is no such thing as "Replay sample". Unless you stretch this like... you used a sample, got into trouble, and then replaced the sample with a replayed version of the sample...

    But in the end, what you hear in a song is either sampled OR replayed (aka interpolation).

    Last edited by Electro; 22-02-2020 at 06:20 PM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    This video exactly proves my point. The reprecussions of sampling or doing an interpolation may vary but they are still in essence the same thing as he describes in the video.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    This video exactly proves my point. The reprecussions of sampling or doing an interpolation may vary but they are still in essence the same thing.
    No. What this video says is that there is no such thing as "replay sample", as the guy explains the DIFFERENCE between the two things. Both might get you into trouble, but technically it is simply not the same thing.
    Last edited by Electro; 22-02-2020 at 06:12 PM.

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    Default Re: influences

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    I'm not quite sure what this is suppose to prove. This seems more like semantics than anything else. Sampling and interpolations are just words used to describe the phenomenon of borrowing elements from another song in modern context. I don't think it's more complicated.
    Pretty much this, I don't really understand why people are arguing lol.

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    Default Re: influences

    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothGangsta View Post
    Pretty much this, I don't really understand why people are arguing lol.
    Because sampling is literally taking a part of an existing source and putting it into a sampler. It's not replaying anything. Like James Brown said in I'm Real "You better take my voice off your records till I'm paid in full". If sampling is the same as interpolation then anybody doing a remake is sampling because they are replaying a song. Even if they change the arrangement, they're using the same lyrics. When Mike says "shamone" in Bad, he isn't sampling The Staple Singers, he's saying it himself. Stevie Wonder was singing "hee hee hee" in the early 1970s. But on Threatened he's sampling Rod Serling's voice, because Rod did not participate in the song because he was dead when this was recorded.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    No. What this video says is that there is no such thing as "replay sample", as the guy explains the DIFFERENCE between the two things. Both might get you into trouble, but technically it is simply not the same thing.
    Are we watching the same video? he literally says in the beginning "Where sampling took from the composition and the sound recording, replay wants to not take the sound recording.. what you wanna replay is the melody for example that was in a sound recording not copy not sample it"

    That is exactly what I have been saying, the only difference between replay and sample is that you are taking (actually copying sound files, audio files, etc) when you are sampling but with an interpolation you are re-producing (replaying) a part another song that you want to use without physically taking stuff like sound and audio files etc. They are both used to achieve the same end as he so eloquently put it's. You can easier get away with interpolation than sampling.

    I don't get what we are arguing about here really.
    Last edited by Themidwestcowboy; 22-02-2020 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Re: influences

    Quote Originally Posted by DuranDuran View Post
    Because sampling is literally taking a part of an existing source and putting it into a sampler. It's not replaying anything. Like James Brown said in I'm Real "You better take my voice off your records till I'm paid in full". If sampling is the same as interpolation then anybody doing a remake is sampling because they are replaying a song. Even if they change the arrangement, they're using the same lyrics. When Mike says "shamone" in Bad, he isn't sampling The Staple Singers, he's saying it himself. Stevie Wonder was singing "hee hee hee" in the early 1970s. But on Threatened he's sampling Rod Serling's voice, because Rod did not participate in the song because he was dead when this was recorded.
    Well your issue is not with me then it's with the people who decided that interpolation is another form of a sample hence why it's called Re-played Sample. There are two ways to sample something, sample in the original sense of the word, taking actual audio files etc and there is interpolation re-played sample where you re-produce something from another source may it be composition etc.

    And remake and covers are not the same as interpolation or sampling. You are still crediting the original creators with covers and remakes and that is not always the case with interpolations and samples.

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    Default Re: influences

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    You are still crediting the original creators with covers and remakes and that is not always the case with interpolations and samples.
    That is no different from what I was saying about Led Zeppelin and the The Jacksons songs I mentioned above. The original writers are not credited. Led Zeppelin has been sued several times for that too. Many songs in the entire history of the recording are copies and soundalikes, which is not really much different than a interpolation. They are replayed, not a sample. If you buy an album, it will state if a song contains a sample or an interpolation. So they are not interchangable. That's like people saying a talkbox, vocoders, and autotune are the same thing just because they change the voice. But they are 3 different things.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    Are we watching the same video? he literally says in the beginning "Where sampling took from the composition and the sound recording, replay wants to not take the sound recording.. what you wanna replay is the melody for example that was in a sound recording not copy not sample it"

    That is exactly what I have been saying, the only difference between replay and sample is that you are taking (actually copying sound files, audio files, etc) when you are sampling but with an interpolation you are re-producing (replaying) a part another song that you want to use without physically taking stuff like sound and audio files etc. They are both used to achieve the same end as he so eloquently put it's. You can easier get away with interpolation than sampling.

    I don't get what we are arguing about here really.

    I know it's getting a bit silly and off topic now, but just for the record...

    What we argued about is the meaning and use of the word "sample".
    You keep saying replay/interpolation is a form of sampling. I say it's not.
    I posted the video with that guy explaining the technical difference between the two.

    Of course there are two ways to approach this...
    For any normal listener this is only about the artistry / originality aspect - if something sounds "same'ish" or not, and it doesn't matter how that's accomplished. But when you go into technical and rights-relevant details, you just can't claim that replaying is the same or a form of sampling. That's just plain wrong. Sorry.
    Last edited by Electro; 22-02-2020 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: influences

    Great thread. Love to hear similarities in song- never realised this on the Jacksons songs. Did Michael have other songs that seemed to sound similar to others ?

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    I know it's getting a bit silly and off topic now, but just for the record...

    What we argue about is the meaning and use of the word "sample".
    You keep saying replay/interpolation is a form of sampling. I say it's not.
    I posted the video with that guy explaining the technical difference between the two.

    Of course there are two ways to approach this...
    For any normal listener this is only about the artistry / originality aspect - if something sounds "same'ish" or not, and it doesn't matter how that's accomplished. But when you go into technical and rights-relevant details, you just can't claim that replaying is the same or a form of sampling. That's just plain wrong. Sorry.
    So is Changes by Tupac Shakur a sample or not?

    We gon have to agree to disagree. The way i understand it
    Interpolations are samples replayed hence the name "Replayed Sample."

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    So is Changes by Tupac Shakur a sample or not?

    We gon have to agree to disagree. The way i understand it
    Interpolations are samples replayed hence the name "Replayed Sample."

    It might have to do with how one understands the difference between a composition and a recording.
    A replay/interpolation only deals with the composition (in basic music: the notes of melodies you can read from a piece of paper). You recreate what you hear / read with your own instrument for your new recording.

    In production context "sample" doesn't refer to the composition, but to a sound recording of it. You take one of your favorite CDs, and record a bit (a "hee hee", a drum sound, a melody segment or whatever) and directly insert that into your new song.

    If you ask me, the Tupac Changes song replays those piano melodies. It doesn't include any sound samples from the original recording.
    Last edited by Electro; 23-02-2020 at 12:58 AM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    People been using samples of other songs for as long I known. i don't see nothing wrong with it as long they ask the artist or copyright holder. Biggie was a fan of Michael and he did i think two songs with him. so this no surprise.



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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    When I started the thread I just wanted other ears to confirm fo me if there were similarities between two specific patterns in both songs. They sound very close to me. The other thing that bolstered my suspicion that Rodney borrowed and then reinterpreted that pattern was that he then told Mike I have the perfect rap verse for this song. The rap in question was a Biggie verse. The pattern I identified as having been borrowed was from a Biggie song produced by DJ Premier. The problem for me though is that there was no credit for this in the sleeve notes. But of course this is pointless if the said similarity doesn't actually exist.

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