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Thread: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

   
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    Default May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Michael's Unbreakable recalls a track called Unbelievable contained in the Notorious B. I. G.'s 1994 landmark Ready to Die. Specifically, Unbreakable has that jackhammering piano pattern that sounds to my ears a lot like Unbelievable's pattern albeit languid. Anyone's ears hear similarities between both tracks? Could Rodney have been inspired by this beat?



    Unbreakable also happens to contain a guest verse by Biggie pulled from Shaq's You Can't Stop The Reign. Is it all a coincidence?

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    I mean it's basically a sample ahaha.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by SmoothGangsta View Post
    I mean it's basically a sample ahaha.
    Yeah sounds that way to me but Rodney doesn't credit the musical sample. The verse is credited but not the motif in the beat.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    It's a sample no doubt.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Great spot mate

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    I doubt it's specifically based on that B.I.G. song.
    I mean listen closely!

    The piano sound in "Unbreakable" is clearly not sampled (copy & pasted) from this B.I.G. song. It's no great or original sound, so why sample it, when every cheap keyboard has lots of similar sounds. It's a piano type of sound in both songs, but obviously different. And the melody played with it is only very remotely similar at some sections.

    I can't come up with names now... but in the mid 90s there where lots of hip hop beats with that kind of piano-esk stuff going on. Depends on listening experience how you hear connections or not.




    Last edited by Electro; 21-02-2020 at 10:16 PM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    I doubt it's specifically based on that B.I.G. song.
    I mean listen closely!

    The piano sound in "Unbreakable" is clearly not sampled (copy & pasted) from this B.I.G. song. It's no great or original sound, so why sample it, when every cheap keyboard has lots of similar sounds. It's a piano type of sound in both songs, but obviously different. And the melody played with it is only very remotely similar at some sections.

    I can't come up with names now... but in the mid 90s there where lots of hip hop beats with that kind of piano-esk stuff going on. Depends on listening experience how you hear connections or not.




    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.
    Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.

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    Default interpolation

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.
    That's what a sample is, using an existing recording and putting it on another song. That's why samples have to be cleared. Using elements from another song (without using the original recording) is called "interpolation". For example, on the remix for Thank God I Found You by Mariah Carey & Joe, it's sung like Keith Sweat's Make It Last Forever. They didn't sample Keith's record, it's replayed and resung. Technically, you could say it's a remake with different lyrics, sort of like what Weird Al does. In some cases with interpolation, somebody might use a few lyrics from another song, it's been done on several songs from DeBarge's I Like It ("I like the way you comb your hair...").

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgnex View Post
    It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.

    Ok, "inspiration" is possible. And actually I would not be surprised if Jerkins, as unoriginal as he always was as a producer, took inspiration from this song and this (by 2001) fully worn out style of Hip Hop production. I mean decades later he also talked nonsense about "Heartbreaker" being "Dubstep". He truly fits the sad clishe of the shamelessly clueless mainstream producer.

    But just curious... what's the source for your claim that this particular B.I.G. "Unbelieveable" song actually was the inspiration?


    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.

    Nah. The term "sample" just keeps getting misused by a lot of people. Actually in music production "sampling" is clearly defined as copy and pasting (edited or not) certain bits of an existing piece of music. That is what a "sampler", a piece of hardware music production equipment did and where the term originates from. And it's clearly not the case here with these two songs.
    Last edited by Electro; 22-02-2020 at 04:17 AM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Michael Jackson’s ‘Unbreakable’ is based on ‘Unbelievable’, which in turn is based on the ‘Impeach The President’ song by The Honey Drippers (1973).

    The key person about this musical connection and resemblance of these three songs is the American producer DJ Premier.

    DJ Premier was asked by The Notorious B.I.G. to create a track for his ‘Ready To Die’ debut album and the payment was set to $5,000.

    But DJ Premier was not sure what to use as a starting point for the song, and then The Notorious B.I.G. suggested to DJ Premier to use the well-known ‘Impeach The President’ song as a musical basis.

    DJ Premier agreed on that, and he used ‘Impeach The President’ as a musical basis (by sampling it) for the creation of the song that would become ‘Unbelievable’.

    When DJ Premier finished the ‘Unbelievable’ song, he delivered it to The Notorious B.I.G., and The Notorious B.I.G. paid him $5,000.

    Some years later, during the ‘Invincible’ album sessions, Rodney Jerkins was asked by Michael Jackson to create a song with an infectious groove.

    So, Rodney Jerkins decided to use the ‘Unbelievable’ song as a musical basis for Michael Jackson’s ‘Unbreakable’ song.

    Michael Jackson liked ‘Unbreakable’ so much that he put it as the opening song on his album.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by DuranDuran View Post
    That's what a sample is, using an existing recording and putting it on another song. That's why samples have to be cleared. Using elements from another song (without using the original recording) is called "interpolation". For example, on the remix for Thank God I Found You by Mariah Carey & Joe, it's sung like Keith Sweat's Make It Last Forever. They didn't sample Keith's record, it's replayed and resung. Technically, you could say it's a remake with different lyrics, sort of like what Weird Al does. In some cases with interpolation, somebody might use a few lyrics from another song, it's been done on several songs from DeBarge's I Like It ("I like the way you comb your hair...").
    Yes and an interpolation is also called a Replay sample so it stills falls under the umbrella of sampling. Some interpolations (replayed samples) has been subjected to copyright lawsuits. But I know what you're getting at, the original meaning of a sample is a clear cut direct sample but using that vernacular today is not as black and white as that. I should correct myself, what Rodney did was an interpolation of Biggie's song.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    Ok, "inspiration" is possible. And actually I would not be surprised if Jerkins, as unoriginal as he always was as a producer, took inspiration from this song and this (by 2001) fully worn out style of Hip Hop production. I mean decades later he also talked nonsense about "Heartbreaker" being "Dubstep". He truly fits the sad clishe of the shamelessly clueless mainstream producer.

    But just curious... what's the source for your claim that this particular B.I.G. "Unbelieveable" song actually was the inspiration?





    Nah. The term "sample" just keeps getting misused by a lot of people. Actually in music production "sampling" is clearly defined as copy and pasting (edited or not) certain bits of an existing piece of music. That is what a "sampler", a piece of hardware music production equipment did and where the term originates from. And it's clearly not the case here with these two songs.
    Yes but interpolation which is also called replay sample, is another use of sampling. It doesn't directly use a a portion from the song but uses a pieces of the melody.

    Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.
    Last edited by Themidwestcowboy; 22-02-2020 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    Yes but interpolation which is also called replay sample, is another use of sampling. It doesn't directly use a a portion from the song but uses a pieces of the melody.

    Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.

    "Replay sample"? That's a contradiction in itself. Like "clean coal".
    If that's supposed to mean a replayed piece of music, then what would be the difference to the term "replay" (without "sample")?
    It's either sampled, or it's replayed. Can't be both.

    No matter how some people use these terms, there are just these two possibilities.
    It's either copy & pasted (sampled), or it's redone from scratch (whatever the intent or outcome).

    On the technical level, the Bruce Hornsby piano riff is replayed, it's not sampled.
    Last edited by Electro; 22-02-2020 at 04:42 PM.

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    Default Re: May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Electro View Post
    "Replay sample"? That's a contradiction in itself. Like "clean coal".
    If that's supposed to mean a replayed piece of music, then what would be the difference to the term "replay" (without "sample")?
    It's either sampled, or it's replayed. Can't be both.

    No matter how some people use these terms, there are just these two possibilities.
    It's either copy & pasted (sampled), or it's redone from scratch (whatever the intent or outcome).

    On the technical level, the Bruce Hornsby piano riff is replayed, it's not sampled.
    I fail to see the contradiction here my friend. When it comes down to it what you're doing when you're sampling a song is taking a piece someone else's preexisting composition and using it in your own composition, in the state that it already is or in an exaggerated state i.e altering the pitch, tempo etc. Whether you are using a piece straight from a song or re playing it with other instruments you are still using an element of another one's song in your own composition hence why an interpolation is called a re-played sample because it technically a form of sampling. These are the official terminologies of the words Sample and Interpolation (Re-played sample) not just something that I made up.

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    Default influences

    Quote Originally Posted by Themidwestcowboy View Post
    Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.
    Performers have been using parts of other songs long before samplers, hip hop, or interpolations existed. Like Led Zeppelin copying music and/or lyrics from old blues songs but calling the song something else and not crediting the original writers. In the 1970s, James Brown copied the guitar riff from David Bowie's Fame on his song Hot. James also based the alternate (radio station call letters) version of Damn Right I Am Somebody on Al Green's Love And Happiness. What Led Zeppelin & James Brown did wasn't called sampling. There's a 1960s song by Barbara Acklin called Am I The Same Girl. Young-Holt Unlimited released an instrumental version around the same time, but they called it Soulful Strut.

    Also answer songs have been a thing in music since at least the 1940s. Answer songs are a response to another song, usually a popular hit. The answer song often sounded similar to the original song so that the listener could connect the reply version to the original. Like Superstar by Lydia Murdock is a reply to Billie Jean. There's also a lot of soundalike songs and they weren't called sampling. Some genres even have a generic sound in which many songs sound similar to each other (blues, Tejano, house, reggae, salsa, disco, polka, 1960s Motown, etc.).

    The chorus on The Jacksons' Shake Your Body is based on a chant from the long version of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up. Randy Jackson did an interview with Questlove around a year ago and he said that the rhythm of All Night Dancin' came from Harvest For The World by The Isley Brothers. If you listen, All Night Dancin' is just sped up from the original song.


    Listen to these short segments on these 2 songs:
    (0:29) Earth Wind & Fire ~ Jupiter (1977)

    (0:55) The Jacksons ~ Things I Do For You (1978)

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