May Unbreakable have been inspired by Biggie' s Unbelievable?

Wilmert

Proud Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
36
Points
0
Michael's Unbreakable recalls a track called Unbelievable contained in the Notorious B. I. G.'s 1994 landmark Ready to Die. Specifically, Unbreakable has that jackhammering piano pattern that sounds to my ears a lot like Unbelievable's pattern albeit languid. Anyone's ears hear similarities between both tracks? Could Rodney have been inspired by this beat?



Unbreakable also happens to contain a guest verse by Biggie pulled from Shaq's You Can't Stop The Reign. Is it all a coincidence?
 
I doubt it's specifically based on that B.I.G. song.
I mean listen closely!

The piano sound in "Unbreakable" is clearly not sampled (copy & pasted) from this B.I.G. song. It's no great or original sound, so why sample it, when every cheap keyboard has lots of similar sounds. It's a piano type of sound in both songs, but obviously different. And the melody played with it is only very remotely similar at some sections.

I can't come up with names now... but in the mid 90s there where lots of hip hop beats with that kind of piano-esk stuff going on. Depends on listening experience how you hear connections or not.



 
Last edited:
It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.
 
I doubt it's specifically based on that B.I.G. song.
I mean listen closely!

The piano sound in "Unbreakable" is clearly not sampled (copy & pasted) from this B.I.G. song. It's no great or original sound, so why sample it, when every cheap keyboard has lots of similar sounds. It's a piano type of sound in both songs, but obviously different. And the melody played with it is only very remotely similar at some sections.

I can't come up with names now... but in the mid 90s there where lots of hip hop beats with that kind of piano-esk stuff going on. Depends on listening experience how you hear connections or not.




It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.

Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.
 
interpolation

Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.
That's what a sample is, using an existing recording and putting it on another song. That's why samples have to be cleared. Using elements from another song (without using the original recording) is called "interpolation". For example, on the remix for Thank God I Found You by Mariah Carey & Joe, it's sung like Keith Sweat's Make It Last Forever. They didn't sample Keith's record, it's replayed and resung. Technically, you could say it's a remake with different lyrics, sort of like what Weird Al does. In some cases with interpolation, somebody might use a few lyrics from another song, it's been done on several songs from DeBarge's I Like It ("I like the way you comb your hair...").
 
It is known for about 18 years that Rodney Jerkins who produced the music, was just inspired by the composition in that B.I.G. track. That's it. No sample, no credits, just a musician creating something new from a simple melodic pattern. End of a simple story.


Ok, "inspiration" is possible. And actually I would not be surprised if Jerkins, as unoriginal as he always was as a producer, took inspiration from this song and this (by 2001) fully worn out style of Hip Hop production. I mean decades later he also talked nonsense about "Heartbreaker" being "Dubstep". He truly fits the sad clishe of the shamelessly clueless mainstream producer.

But just curious... what's the source for your claim that this particular B.I.G. "Unbelieveable" song actually was the inspiration?


Well a sample doesn't necessarily mean that you have to use the actual piece from the record, if you re-play it, using different instruments and what not, or even just use elements of something it could count as a sample. The concept of sampling is murky waters.


Nah. The term "sample" just keeps getting misused by a lot of people. Actually in music production "sampling" is clearly defined as copy and pasting (edited or not) certain bits of an existing piece of music. That is what a "sampler", a piece of hardware music production equipment did and where the term originates from. And it's clearly not the case here with these two songs.
 
Last edited:
Michael Jackson’s ‘Unbreakable’ is based on ‘Unbelievable’, which in turn is based on the ‘Impeach The President’ song by The Honey Drippers (1973).

The key person about this musical connection and resemblance of these three songs is the American producer DJ Premier.

DJ Premier was asked by The Notorious B.I.G. to create a track for his ‘Ready To Die’ debut album and the payment was set to $5,000.

But DJ Premier was not sure what to use as a starting point for the song, and then The Notorious B.I.G. suggested to DJ Premier to use the well-known ‘Impeach The President’ song as a musical basis.

DJ Premier agreed on that, and he used ‘Impeach The President’ as a musical basis (by sampling it) for the creation of the song that would become ‘Unbelievable’.

When DJ Premier finished the ‘Unbelievable’ song, he delivered it to The Notorious B.I.G., and The Notorious B.I.G. paid him $5,000.

Some years later, during the ‘Invincible’ album sessions, Rodney Jerkins was asked by Michael Jackson to create a song with an infectious groove.

So, Rodney Jerkins decided to use the ‘Unbelievable’ song as a musical basis for Michael Jackson’s ‘Unbreakable’ song.

Michael Jackson liked ‘Unbreakable’ so much that he put it as the opening song on his album.
 
That's what a sample is, using an existing recording and putting it on another song. That's why samples have to be cleared. Using elements from another song (without using the original recording) is called "interpolation". For example, on the remix for Thank God I Found You by Mariah Carey & Joe, it's sung like Keith Sweat's Make It Last Forever. They didn't sample Keith's record, it's replayed and resung. Technically, you could say it's a remake with different lyrics, sort of like what Weird Al does. In some cases with interpolation, somebody might use a few lyrics from another song, it's been done on several songs from DeBarge's I Like It ("I like the way you comb your hair...").

Yes and an interpolation is also called a Replay sample so it stills falls under the umbrella of sampling. Some interpolations (replayed samples) has been subjected to copyright lawsuits. But I know what you're getting at, the original meaning of a sample is a clear cut direct sample but using that vernacular today is not as black and white as that. I should correct myself, what Rodney did was an interpolation of Biggie's song.

Ok, "inspiration" is possible. And actually I would not be surprised if Jerkins, as unoriginal as he always was as a producer, took inspiration from this song and this (by 2001) fully worn out style of Hip Hop production. I mean decades later he also talked nonsense about "Heartbreaker" being "Dubstep". He truly fits the sad clishe of the shamelessly clueless mainstream producer.

But just curious... what's the source for your claim that this particular B.I.G. "Unbelieveable" song actually was the inspiration?





Nah. The term "sample" just keeps getting misused by a lot of people. Actually in music production "sampling" is clearly defined as copy and pasting (edited or not) certain bits of an existing piece of music. That is what a "sampler", a piece of hardware music production equipment did and where the term originates from. And it's clearly not the case here with these two songs.

Yes but interpolation which is also called replay sample, is another use of sampling. It doesn't directly use a a portion from the song but uses a pieces of the melody.

Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.
 
Last edited:
Yes but interpolation which is also called replay sample, is another use of sampling. It doesn't directly use a a portion from the song but uses a pieces of the melody.

Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.


"Replay sample"? That's a contradiction in itself. Like "clean coal". :D
If that's supposed to mean a replayed piece of music, then what would be the difference to the term "replay" (without "sample")?
It's either sampled, or it's replayed. Can't be both.

No matter how some people use these terms, there are just these two possibilities.
It's either copy & pasted (sampled), or it's redone from scratch (whatever the intent or outcome).

On the technical level, the Bruce Hornsby piano riff is replayed, it's not sampled.
 
Last edited:
"Replay sample"? That's a contradiction in itself. Like "clean coal". :D
If that's supposed to mean a replayed piece of music, then what would be the difference to the term "replay" (without "sample")?
It's either sampled, or it's replayed. Can't be both.

No matter how some people use these terms, there are just these two possibilities.
It's either copy & pasted (sampled), or it's redone from scratch (whatever the intent or outcome).

On the technical level, the Bruce Hornsby piano riff is replayed, it's not sampled.

I fail to see the contradiction here my friend. When it comes down to it what you're doing when you're sampling a song is taking a piece someone else's preexisting composition and using it in your own composition, in the state that it already is or in an exaggerated state i.e altering the pitch, tempo etc. Whether you are using a piece straight from a song or re playing it with other instruments you are still using an element of another one's song in your own composition hence why an interpolation is called a re-played sample because it technically a form of sampling. These are the official terminologies of the words Sample and Interpolation (Re-played sample) not just something that I made up.
 
influences

Let's take Tupac Changes for example. That piano riff is taken from Bruce Hornsby's song That's just the way it is but it is not directly sampled but re played by other musicans. But calling that anything other than a sample would be wrong and incorrect. Now what you could call it is an interpolation, sure, but that just means a re-played sample anyway.
Performers have been using parts of other songs long before samplers, hip hop, or interpolations existed. Like Led Zeppelin copying music and/or lyrics from old blues songs but calling the song something else and not crediting the original writers. In the 1970s, James Brown copied the guitar riff from David Bowie's Fame on his song Hot. James also based the alternate (radio station call letters) version of Damn Right I Am Somebody on Al Green's Love And Happiness. What Led Zeppelin & James Brown did wasn't called sampling. There's a 1960s song by Barbara Acklin called Am I The Same Girl. Young-Holt Unlimited released an instrumental version around the same time, but they called it Soulful Strut.

Also answer songs have been a thing in music since at least the 1940s. Answer songs are a response to another song, usually a popular hit. The answer song often sounded similar to the original song so that the listener could connect the reply version to the original. Like Superstar by Lydia Murdock is a reply to Billie Jean. There's also a lot of soundalike songs and they weren't called sampling. Some genres even have a generic sound in which many songs sound similar to each other (blues, Tejano, house, reggae, salsa, disco, polka, 1960s Motown, etc.).

The chorus on The Jacksons' Shake Your Body is based on a chant from the long version of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up. Randy Jackson did an interview with Questlove around a year ago and he said that the rhythm of All Night Dancin' came from Harvest For The World by The Isley Brothers. If you listen, All Night Dancin' is just sped up from the original song.
Listen to these short segments on these 2 songs:
(0:29) Earth Wind & Fire ~ Jupiter (1977)
(0:55) The Jacksons ~ Things I Do For You (1978)
 
Re: influences

Performers have been using parts of other songs long before samplers, hip hop, or interpolations existed. Like Led Zeppelin copying music and/or lyrics from old blues songs but calling the song something else and not crediting the original writers. In the 1970s, James Brown copied the guitar riff from David Bowie's Fame on his song Hot. James also based the alternate (radio station call letters) version of Damn Right I Am Somebody on Al Green's Love And Happiness. What Led Zeppelin & James Brown did wasn't called sampling. There's a 1960s song by Barbara Acklin called Am I The Same Girl. Young-Holt Unlimited released an instrumental version around the same time, but they called it Soulful Strut.

Also answer songs have been a thing in music since at least the 1940s. Answer songs are a response to another song, usually a popular hit. The answer song often sounded similar to the original song so that the listener could connect the reply version to the original. Like Superstar by Lydia Murdock is a reply to Billie Jean. There's also a lot of soundalike songs and they weren't called sampling. Some genres even have a generic sound in which many songs sound similar to each other (blues, Tejano, house, reggae, salsa, disco, polka, 1960s Motown, etc.).

The chorus on The Jacksons' Shake Your Body is based on a chant from the long version of Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up. Randy Jackson did an interview with Questlove around a year ago and he said that the rhythm of All Night Dancin' came from Harvest For The World by The Isley Brothers. If you listen, All Night Dancin' is just sped up from the original song.
Listen to these short segments on these 2 songs:
(0:29) Earth Wind & Fire ~ Jupiter (1977)
(0:55) The Jacksons ~ Things I Do For You (1978)

I'm not quite sure what this is suppose to prove. This seems more like semantics than anything else. Sampling and interpolations are just words used to describe the phenomenon of borrowing elements from another song in modern context. I don't think it's more complicated.
 
Last edited:
Whenever someone says "Replay sample", then they don't understand the meaning of sampling.
Might be due to not knowing how this works technically.

There simply is no such thing as "Replay sample". Unless you stretch this like... you used a sample, got into trouble, and then replaced the sample with a replayed version of the sample... :D

But in the end, what you hear in a song is either sampled OR replayed (aka interpolation).

 
Last edited:
This video exactly proves my point. The reprecussions of sampling or doing an interpolation may vary but they are still in essence the same thing.

No. What this video says is that there is no such thing as "replay sample", as the guy explains the DIFFERENCE between the two things. Both might get you into trouble, but technically it is simply not the same thing. :D
 
Last edited:
Re: influences

I'm not quite sure what this is suppose to prove. This seems more like semantics than anything else. Sampling and interpolations are just words used to describe the phenomenon of borrowing elements from another song in modern context. I don't think it's more complicated.

Pretty much this, I don't really understand why people are arguing lol.
 
Re: influences

Pretty much this, I don't really understand why people are arguing lol.
Because sampling is literally taking a part of an existing source and putting it into a sampler. It's not replaying anything. Like James Brown said in I'm Real "You better take my voice off your records till I'm paid in full". :laughing: If sampling is the same as interpolation then anybody doing a remake is sampling because they are replaying a song. Even if they change the arrangement, they're using the same lyrics. When Mike says "shamone" in Bad, he isn't sampling The Staple Singers, he's saying it himself. Stevie Wonder was singing "hee hee hee" in the early 1970s. But on Threatened he's sampling Rod Serling's voice, because Rod did not participate in the song because he was dead when this was recorded.
 
No. What this video says is that there is no such thing as "replay sample", as the guy explains the DIFFERENCE between the two things. Both might get you into trouble, but technically it is simply not the same thing. :D

Are we watching the same video? he literally says in the beginning "Where sampling took from the composition and the sound recording, replay wants to not take the sound recording.. what you wanna replay is the melody for example that was in a sound recording not copy not sample it"

That is exactly what I have been saying, the only difference between replay and sample is that you are taking (actually copying sound files, audio files, etc) when you are sampling but with an interpolation you are re-producing (replaying) a part another song that you want to use without physically taking stuff like sound and audio files etc. They are both used to achieve the same end as he so eloquently put it's. You can easier get away with interpolation than sampling.

I don't get what we are arguing about here really.
 
Last edited:
Re: influences

Because sampling is literally taking a part of an existing source and putting it into a sampler. It's not replaying anything. Like James Brown said in I'm Real "You better take my voice off your records till I'm paid in full". :laughing: If sampling is the same as interpolation then anybody doing a remake is sampling because they are replaying a song. Even if they change the arrangement, they're using the same lyrics. When Mike says "shamone" in Bad, he isn't sampling The Staple Singers, he's saying it himself. Stevie Wonder was singing "hee hee hee" in the early 1970s. But on Threatened he's sampling Rod Serling's voice, because Rod did not participate in the song because he was dead when this was recorded.

Well your issue is not with me then it's with the people who decided that interpolation is another form of a sample hence why it's called Re-played Sample. There are two ways to sample something, sample in the original sense of the word, taking actual audio files etc and there is interpolation re-played sample where you re-produce something from another source may it be composition etc.

And remake and covers are not the same as interpolation or sampling. You are still crediting the original creators with covers and remakes and that is not always the case with interpolations and samples.
 
Re: influences

You are still crediting the original creators with covers and remakes and that is not always the case with interpolations and samples.
That is no different from what I was saying about Led Zeppelin and the The Jacksons songs I mentioned above. The original writers are not credited. Led Zeppelin has been sued several times for that too. Many songs in the entire history of the recording are copies and soundalikes, which is not really much different than a interpolation. They are replayed, not a sample. If you buy an album, it will state if a song contains a sample or an interpolation. So they are not interchangable. That's like people saying a talkbox, vocoders, and autotune are the same thing just because they change the voice. But they are 3 different things.
 
Are we watching the same video? he literally says in the beginning "Where sampling took from the composition and the sound recording, replay wants to not take the sound recording.. what you wanna replay is the melody for example that was in a sound recording not copy not sample it"

That is exactly what I have been saying, the only difference between replay and sample is that you are taking (actually copying sound files, audio files, etc) when you are sampling but with an interpolation you are re-producing (replaying) a part another song that you want to use without physically taking stuff like sound and audio files etc. They are both used to achieve the same end as he so eloquently put it's. You can easier get away with interpolation than sampling.

I don't get what we are arguing about here really.


I know it's getting a bit silly and off topic now, but just for the record... :)

What we argued about is the meaning and use of the word "sample".
You keep saying replay/interpolation is a form of sampling. I say it's not.
I posted the video with that guy explaining the technical difference between the two.

Of course there are two ways to approach this...
For any normal listener this is only about the artistry / originality aspect - if something sounds "same'ish" or not, and it doesn't matter how that's accomplished. But when you go into technical and rights-relevant details, you just can't claim that replaying is the same or a form of sampling. That's just plain wrong. Sorry.
 
Last edited:
Re: influences

Great thread. Love to hear similarities in song- never realised this on the Jacksons songs. Did Michael have other songs that seemed to sound similar to others ?
 
I know it's getting a bit silly and off topic now, but just for the record... :)

What we argue about is the meaning and use of the word "sample".
You keep saying replay/interpolation is a form of sampling. I say it's not.
I posted the video with that guy explaining the technical difference between the two.

Of course there are two ways to approach this...
For any normal listener this is only about the artistry / originality aspect - if something sounds "same'ish" or not, and it doesn't matter how that's accomplished. But when you go into technical and rights-relevant details, you just can't claim that replaying is the same or a form of sampling. That's just plain wrong. Sorry.

So is Changes by Tupac Shakur a sample or not?

We gon have to agree to disagree. The way i understand it
Interpolations are samples replayed hence the name "Replayed Sample."
 
So is Changes by Tupac Shakur a sample or not?

We gon have to agree to disagree. The way i understand it
Interpolations are samples replayed hence the name "Replayed Sample."


It might have to do with how one understands the difference between a composition and a recording.
A replay/interpolation only deals with the composition (in basic music: the notes of melodies you can read from a piece of paper). You recreate what you hear / read with your own instrument for your new recording.

In production context "sample" doesn't refer to the composition, but to a sound recording of it. You take one of your favorite CDs, and record a bit (a "hee hee", a drum sound, a melody segment or whatever) and directly insert that into your new song.

If you ask me, the Tupac Changes song replays those piano melodies. It doesn't include any sound samples from the original recording.
 
Last edited:
People been using samples of other songs for as long I known. i don't see nothing wrong with it as long they ask the artist or copyright holder. Biggie was a fan of Michael and he did i think two songs with him. so this no surprise.
 
When I started the thread I just wanted other ears to confirm fo me if there were similarities between two specific patterns in both songs. They sound very close to me. The other thing that bolstered my suspicion that Rodney borrowed and then reinterpreted that pattern was that he then told Mike I have the perfect rap verse for this song. The rap in question was a Biggie verse. The pattern I identified as having been borrowed was from a Biggie song produced by DJ Premier. The problem for me though is that there was no credit for this in the sleeve notes. But of course this is pointless if the said similarity doesn't actually exist.
 
Back
Top