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Thread: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

   
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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    I've made enough rant-infused posts about this topic, so I'll just offer my two cents:

    The purpose of a recording artist's estate is not to pander to said artist's fan base, but to preserve their legacy and right any existing wrongs. Objectively, they've done exactly that: This Is It, Immortal, One, and the forthcoming MJ jukebox musical have presented an opportunity for new generations to discover Michael's music; his catalog (led by Thriller and Bad, respectively) accumulated 1.8 billion streams worldwide, a 67% increase from the previous year; he's hovered in the top 100 most-streamed artists globally on Spotify for a year and a half; he ranked atop Forbes' list of highest-earning deceased artists nine out of the last ten years; and the entirety of the mountainous debt left behind at the time of his death (between $400 million and $500 million) has been paid off. This cannot be considered anything other than a monumental success.

    Now, does that mean fan complaints are unwarranted? No, not always. The Estate has made several fundamentally shameful mistakes over the years, and it's human nature (no pun intended) to have a desire for unseen and/or unheard material.

    However, the idea that the Estate is in any way damaging Michael's legacy by withholding material is asinine. Very rarely, if ever, do posthumous projects ever reach the same level of public acceptance and recognition as material released during the artist's lifetime. Ten years from now, Michael, Originals, and Lioness: Hidden Treasures will be hidden treasures, whereas Thriller, Purple Rain, and Back in Black will continue to influence the masses. Of course, this doesn't justify complete radio silence, but to argue that choosing against reissuing this album or not releasing that concert will in any way impair one of the most steadfast careers in music history is absolutely ridiculous.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    I don't think anyone has said not releasing anything is damaging his legacy? It's more ignoring aspects of his career and not celebrating them because it won't make the estate lots of money (I think that they would make money from a dangerous release, but that seems to be the argument being made here). Which, to be clear, as a fan I do not care about at all, nor should I. The Estate make plenty of money from Michael's back catalogue alone, and it would not take much effort or money from them to celebrate MJ's more obscure work. (Not that I think dangerous is obscure, but some seem to so thought I'd put that in there). Not saying that I don't understand why nothing has come out recently, but the same people making this argument right now would still be making the same argument had LN never happened, and some indeed were before it did, haha.
    Last edited by SmoothGangsta; 08-07-2020 at 03:05 PM.

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  5. #123
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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    ^^

    I've absolutely seen the argument made, both in the past and in this very thread.

    "The quality of the Vision box set is damaging his legacy!"
    "The Cascio tracks are damaging his legacy!"
    "The remixes on Bad 25 are damaging his legacy!"
    "The quality of the Wembley concert is damaging his legacy!"
    "The remixes on Xscape are damaging his legacy!"
    "The Off the Wall documentary is damaging his legacy!"
    "Choosing not to release Dangerous 25 or HIStory 25 is damaging his legacy!"

    All of these things are worthy of criticism, but Michael's legacy has endured just fine.

    I completely agree that the Estate shouldn't ignore his post-1980s work. I don't think they deserve the same level of complexity as Bad 25 due to its commercial disappointment, but I certainly think it's worth highlighting and celebrating Dangerous and HIStory to some degree. HIStory in particular would fit far better in today's climate due to its deep, personal lyricism, which is far more prevalent and appreciated now than it was in 1995.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    So it seems like the idea of resuming albums anniversary celebrations has gone and giving the fans albums like "Scream" is better !

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    ugh. here we go again.



    a female with major depression,generalized anxiety,behavioral and emotional disorder,ocd mild retardation, and learning disability. i'm not contagious but my smile is.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna View Post
    Why would we make excuses for the Estate? It's not like they have a pristine track record and deserve to be defended at all costs. You're just dismissing perfectly valid reasoning for not doing a re-release, especially now after LN.
    I've honestly no idea why the same core group trot out that excuse every time. But I haven't dismissed the point, I've argued it. And I'll probably keep doing it in every thread it's repeated in.

    I didn't see anyone cite LN here, I must have missed that. I do agree with that side of things and that isn't unique to Dangerous or HIStory or anything else - it applies to all of Michael's work so arguing that no one cares about Dangerous is kind of a moot point. A release is going to be difficult in this climate. Not impossible, but timing and everything is important there. Of course there's nothing to stop the Estate distributing material directly to fans through a digital platform, without herald or noise - something that would cost them nothing, create no negative publicity, and generate income. But they wouldn't do that either obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMackson View Post
    I have never seen it any of those best album lists at, It's not even listed in most "best of" 1991 polls. If I come across dangerous (very rarely) in any of those lists it's usually very low down, near the bottom.
    You've never seen it on any list? The BBC shortlisted it with about 20 or 30 other albums, about a month or so ago, for their greatest albums of the 90s poll. I think Billboard had it on their top R&B albums of all time list, never mind the 90s.

    Celine Dion is not Michael Jackson. Neither are the Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears or any of the ones who had massive 90's sellers. I thought this was clear, and indeed I would have thought it goes without saying, but I am in no way suggesting that sales on paper alone make an album worthy of retrospective attention.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post

    You've never seen it on any list? The BBC shortlisted it with about 20 or 30 other albums, about a month or so ago, for their greatest albums of the 90s poll. I think Billboard had it on their top R&B albums of all time list, never mind the 90s.

    Celine Dion is not Michael Jackson. Neither are the Backstreet Boys or Britney Spears or any of the ones who had massive 90's sellers. I thought this was clear, and indeed I would have thought it goes without saying, but I am in no way suggesting that sales on paper alone make an album worthy of retrospective attention.
    It didn't make the final cut in that poll of a month ago...
    Do you have a link for the R&B list? I'm very interested to see who else is on it. That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
    On the music website rateyourmusic.com Dangerous is listed as the 388th best album of 1991. OTW is nr 10 for 1979, Thriller is nr 4 for 1982 and bad is nr 42 for 1987. It's just one website but you see the same pattern on other similar sites. For example the Dutch site musicmeter.nl also has a users all time top 250 both thriller and bad are on it (otw is not) and dangerous neither.
    Dangerous is not on the rolling stone top 500, not on the NME top 500 etc. Michael's OTW, Thriller and Bad all are.
    In a quick google search I found 2 more websites discussing the all time top 100 albums both off the wall and thriller are on them. Those sites are called "pop vortex" and "consequence of sound" I don't know how reputable those are but it's all about the pattern I'm talking about.

    Either way MJ has 3 albums that are continuously listed as all time greats, that's a very good result. In fact I think it's amazing.
    Last edited by JichaelMackson; 09-07-2020 at 07:07 PM.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMackson View Post
    It didn't make the final cut in that poll of a month ago...
    Do you have a link for the R&B list? I'm very interested to see who else is on it. That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
    I knew you would dismiss both those examples. It wasn't a final cut in the BBC poll, it merely wasn't voted into the top 10. Maybe it ranked #11? The point is not where it finished in the poll, the point is it was shortlisted by the BBC in a really small group of albums, among the best of the 90s practically yesterday. Impressive for an album you've never seen on such a poll.

    The Billboard list indeed only includes R&B/Hip-Hop albums, but it does include the entire history of the genre rather than one decade, so I still think that's worthy of note. If it was best R&B/Hip-Hop albums of the 90s, I'd see your point. Here is the list https://www.billboard.com/charts/gre...hip-hop-albums

    We're splitting hairs here ultimately - it's on some lists, it's not on others. I can tell you something by the way, there a LOT of albums out there that were re-issued or received anniversary releases despite never appearing on any all time best lists.

    I'm not denying the impact of Off the Wall Thriller and Bad - clearly stratospheric. Nor am I campaigning the Estate to release a Dangerous box set. My point is and has been, Dangerous is entirely worthy of attention despite the eclipsing seismic impact of the predecessors. And this argument that Michael Jackson (one of the most commercial artists of the 20th century) and Dangerous (one of the most commercial albums of the 20th century) is/are not commercial, is just a lazy defence for the Estate's lack of creative action on any front.

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    Default rhythm & blues

    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMackson View Post
    That's two lists and one of them is only a list of a music subgenre.
    Technically, R&B is the main genre. Without R&B, blues, jazz, gospel, & hip hop (all originating from black people in the USA), many of songs on the mainstream Hot 100 list throughout the decades would not exist. The only reason pop & rock became more popular because it was mostly white people doing it and people tend to buy their own race or ethnicity before another. The major labels also tended to promote the white artists more. Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, Led Zeppelin, early Fleetwood Mac, etc. were all doing blues influenced music. The Beatles early records had a lot of remakes of R&B/soul songs. Lady Madonna is basically Fats Domino or music from New Orleans and the "wooo" came from Little Richard. George Harrison even had 2 songs dedicated to Smokey Robinson on his solo albums. Elvis was doing R&B & gospel mixed with country. Country music itself had blues & Hawaiian music as influences and country swing & bluegrass had jazz in it. The banjo is an instrument from Africa brought over by the slaves. Today hip hop is mainstream music in the US in a way R&B never was. Hip hop does not have to crossover and it doesn't need to have white artists to make it popular like jazz & blues did or The Police doing reggae influenced songs. It's already pop music.

    Sub-genres of R&B would be like funk, soul jazz, New Jack Swing, electrofunk, & neo-soul.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
    I knew you would dismiss both those examples. It wasn't a final cut in the BBC poll, it merely wasn't voted into the top 10. Maybe it ranked #11? The point is not where it finished in the poll, the point is it was shortlisted by the BBC in a really small group of albums, among the best of the 90s practically yesterday. Impressive for an album you've never seen on such a poll.

    The Billboard list indeed only includes R&B/Hip-Hop albums, but it does include the entire history of the genre rather than one decade, so I still think that's worthy of note. If it was best R&B/Hip-Hop albums of the 90s, I'd see your point. Here is the list https://www.billboard.com/charts/gre...hip-hop-albums

    We're splitting hairs here ultimately - it's on some lists, it's not on others. I can tell you something by the way, there a LOT of albums out there that were re-issued or received anniversary releases despite never appearing on any all time best lists.

    I'm not denying the impact of Off the Wall Thriller and Bad - clearly stratospheric. Nor am I campaigning the Estate to release a Dangerous box set. My point is and has been, Dangerous is entirely worthy of attention despite the eclipsing seismic impact of the predecessors. And this argument that Michael Jackson (one of the most commercial artists of the 20th century) and Dangerous (one of the most commercial albums of the 20th century) is/are not commercial, is just a lazy defence for the Estate's lack of creative action on any front.
    Since your post got 3 likes and mine got none I declare you the winner, congratulations :-D

    I can't open the link, it says I need to be a billboard pro. I can see thriller is nr 1 and OTW nr 3 though yay.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Why is that anyone who says that Dangerous and History anniversary editions aren't necessary is 'making excuses for the Estate?' You have the same section of fans, who make this nonsensical comment. Like why the hell would I make excuses for the Estate? They are nobody to me.
    Last edited by Nite Line; 11-07-2020 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    It's because any pro-Estate commentary nowadays is seen as "making excuses" no matter the objectivity. I'm quickly becoming the forum's number one Estate cheerleader to some people simply because I don't think some of the discourse is fair. Never mind the fact that I've bitched about various aspects of nearly every project they've ever released *rolls eyes*.

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Oh boy. we all have opinions about the estate. at the end of the day we all need to respect one another even we don't agree. i'm not pro-estate either but i'm not anti-estate. this need to stop. i'm pretty sure half of us are middle aged adults always arguing in every thread. it need to stop or somebody gonna have do something about it. to be honest i been less depressed since i been less on here lately.

    this is site already struggling with money.



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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite Line View Post
    Why is that anyone who says that Dangerous and History anniversary editions aren't necessary is 'making excuses for the Estate?' You have the same section of fans, who make this nonsensical comment. Like why the hell would I make excuses for the Estate? They are nobody to me.
    Because any thoughtful or creative idea any fan has is slapped down immediately by the same people as "nobody would buy it" "Michael Jackson isn't commercial enough" "you're being greedy".

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    Default Re: HIStory 25 and Dangerous 30 release petition

    Or because these so-called "thoughtful [and] creative idea[s]" are often rose-tinted fan suggestions that are implausible and/or a waste of resources, and calling any dismissal of these ideas as "making excuses for the Estate" is indicative of some people's refusal to accept that what we want and what the Estate can/should give us are two entirely different things.

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