Albums Dangerous vs Rhythm Nation 1814

JichaelMackson

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This is probably a daft thread on an MJ forum but I'm curious to your opinions anyway.

Janet Jackson's album influenced Michael's dangerous a lot and it is often considered the best new jack swing album out there.
Michael's effort usually doesn't get the same high credit as Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 and we find it undeserving but does Janet's album deserve all the glowing praise?

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?
 
This is probably a daft thread on an MJ forum but I'm curious to your opinions anyway.

Janet Jackson's album influenced Michael's dangerous a lot and it is often considered the best new jack swing album out there.
Michael's effort usually doesn't get the same high credit as Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 and we find it undeserving but does Janet's album deserve all the glowing praise?

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?

This is an interesting idea for a thread! (I usually do like your thread ideas) :)

I really hope you have some knowledgeable people with good music heads on their shoulders, contributing and answering/discussing your questions. The only NJS album I know anything about is "Dangerous" and I am not a Janet fan at all.....I like only a handful of her songs; therefore I don't really feel qualified to contribute. From the place of not really being a Janet fan, my knee-jerk reaction would be to say that Rhythm Nation doesn't deserve all the glowing praise. Perhaps the praise it it has received over the years, is within the framework of the sub-group of female artists, rather than all artists (??)
 
The difference is Janet's album came out when New Jack was still really hot (in the USA). Dangerous was released close to 1992, when NJS was beginning to be on the way out in the mainstream. I don't know how popular New Jack Swing was outside of the USA, but it was all over the radio here starting around 1987 to the early 1990s. The Jacksons had New Jack Swing on the 1989 2300 Jackson Street album and so did Randy in the same year with his group Randy & The Gypsys. The hottest selling New Jack album at the time was Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel. Bobby's album came out in early 1988, close to 4 years before Dangerous. Then Mike released the non-New Jack song Black Or White as the 1st single.

Dangerous is half a New Jack Swing album. It's kind of like he didn't really commit to the sound like he did with the disco & funk influenced Off The Wall. A fully NJS album wouldn't have had songs like Heal The World, Gone Too Soon, & Give In To Me on it. I'm talking about the sound of them, not the lyrics. Janet's album had a rock song (Black Cat) but it still had a funky dance beat. Give In To Me is more like a Bon Jovi power ballad, not a NJS slow jam. It even sounds similar to Alone Again by Dokken.


 
Full Force ~ Alice, I Want You Just For Me!

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?
This 1985 song by Full Force is one of the first NJS songs, although the sound didn't have a name yet.
If you're not familiar with Full Force, 3 of them were the bullies in the 1st House Party movie with Kid n Play. They also produced some songs for the British singer Samantha Fox. But the songs they did for her are more like Latin Freestyle and house music, not NJS. You also might want to check out the "go-go" genre, which was an influence on the NJS sound. Go-go is from Washington DC and started in the 1970s. It never really got any radio popularity, but a few go-go songs became R&B hits though. Maybe 2 or 3 became Top 40 pop hits. The song Ashley's Roachclip by the go-go band Chuck Brown & The Soul Searchers has been sampled on many songs.
 
This is an interesting idea for a thread! (I usually do like your thread ideas) :)

I really hope you have some knowledgeable people with good music heads on their shoulders, contributing and answering/discussing your questions. The only NJS album I know anything about is "Dangerous" and I am not a Janet fan at all.....I like only a handful of her songs; therefore I don't really feel qualified to contribute. From the place of not really being a Janet fan, my knee-jerk reaction would be to say that Rhythm Nation doesn't deserve all the glowing praise. Perhaps the praise it it has received over the years, is within the framework of the sub-group of female artists, rather than all artists (??)

You are really too kind Mikky Dee :)
Have you tried the album? It's actually really good

The difference is Janet's album came out when New Jack was still really hot (in the USA). Dangerous was released close to 1992, when NJS was beginning to be on the way out in the mainstream. I don't know how popular New Jack Swing was outside of the USA, but it was all over the radio here starting around 1987 to the early 1990s. The Jacksons had New Jack Swing on the 1989 2300 Jackson Street album and so did Randy in the same year with his group Randy & The Gypsys. The hottest selling New Jack album at the time was Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel. Bobby's album came out in early 1988, close to 4 years before Dangerous. Then Mike released the non-New Jack song Black Or White as the 1st single.

Dangerous is half a New Jack Swing album. It's kind of like he didn't really commit to the sound like he did with the disco & funk influenced Off The Wall. A fully NJS album wouldn't have had songs like Heal The World, Gone Too Soon, & Give In To Me on it. I'm talking about the sound of them, not the lyrics. Janet's album had a rock song (Black Cat) but it still had a funky dance beat. Give In To Me is more like a Bon Jovi power ballad, not a NJS slow jam. It even sounds similar to Alone Again by Dokken.

Yeah I heard he was coming late to the party, perhaps that's why some of the songs had rather poor chart runs in the USA. From what I can tell NJS was purely a USA thing as Janet's singles didn't set the charts on fire in Europe while they were smash hits in the USA.

I feel though from the small number of NJS songs I heard that the Dangerous songs are more complex (the beat) and deeper than the average sound of NJS, there is more going on I feel. Is it fair to say that "dangerous" was like the last hurrah of the genre. Especially since rock music seemed to take over the charts for a while after Dangerous.

BTW are those beats created through drum machines and samples or does it contain lots of live playing as well?
 
pop

Yeah I heard he was coming late to the party, perhaps that's why some of the songs had rather poor chart runs in the USA. From what I can tell NJS was purely a USA thing as Janet's singles didn't set the charts on fire in Europe while they were smash hits in the USA.

I feel though from the small number of NJS songs I heard that the Dangerous songs are more complex (the beat) and deeper than the average sound of NJS, there is more going on I feel. Is it fair to say that "dangerous" was like the last hurrah of the genre. Especially since rock music seemed to take over the charts for a while after Dangerous.

BTW are those beats created through drum machines and samples or does it contain lots of live playing as well?
A lot of the beats were programming, but some of it was done with the electronic drum kits popular in the 1980s. Some were done with drum machines where you have to hit the pads live. The thing with Dangerous is that by that time it was released NJS was getting watered down and seemed like everybody was doing it, just like disco was by 1979 when there were disco records by Mickey Mouse, The Chipmunks, Frank Sinatra, & The Beach Boys. Disco Duck by Rick Dees reached #1. When you get to the point where Celine Dion & the Rolling Stones are releasing NJS songs or remixes, it's oversaturated. Prince tried to jump on the New Jack bandwagon too in the early 1990s. David Bowie did a song with Al B. Sure!. Al was one of the first NJS singers to become popular.

I wouldn't say rock music took over the pop singles charts after Dangerous. It was more like club dance music & house music (maybe techno to a lesser extent) plus hip hop and some contemporary country like Garth Brooks, Shania Twain, & Alan Jackson. Ace Of Base is an example of a really popular dance music group in the USA at the time. It was a time when remix maxi singles & remix albums were still popular. Grunge was more popular as an album seller than a Top 40 pop radio singles one. They even came up with a special radio format for that called alternative rock. MTV had a show called 120 Minutes that showed music videos by the alternative rock acts.
 
Re: Full Force ~ Alice, I Want You Just For Me!

This 1985 song by Full Force is one of the first NJS songs, although the sound didn't have a name yet.
If you're not familiar with Full Force, 3 of them were the bullies in the 1st House Party movie with Kid n Play. They also produced some songs for the British singer Samantha Fox. But the songs they did for her are more like Latin Freestyle and house music, not NJS. You also might want to check out the "go-go" genre, which was an influence on the NJS sound. Go-go is from Washington DC and started in the 1970s. It never really got any radio popularity, but a few go-go songs became R&B hits though. Maybe 2 or 3 became Top 40 pop hits. The song Ashley's Roachclip by the go-go band Chuck Brown & The Soul Searchers has been sampled on many songs.

Thanks for this. I always find it very interesting to hear the roots or early examples of what would later become a genre. It helps to better understand what the genre is. I must say, your deep knowledge of music history never disappoints. :)
 
When Michael Jackson began working on his ‘Dangerous’ album, he originally asked Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis to produce the new jack swing songs on the album.

But the duo refused due to their loyalty and commitment to Janet Jackson at that time.

Then, Michael Jackson asked Teddy Riley to produce the new jack swing songs on the album, Teddy Riley immediately agreed and the rest is history.

It is worth noting that it was not just the sound of his sister’s ‘Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814’ album that influenced a lot the ‘Dangerous’ album, but it was also the sound of the ‘Spend The Night’ song (from the ‘Guy’ album released in 1988) that influenced a lot the ‘Dangerous’ album, a song that was produced by Teddy Riley and his band.

Michael Jackson really liked the angular sound of the ‘Spend The Night’ song and he wanted a similar sound for his ‘Dangerous’ album.

It is also worth mentioning that years later when Michael Jackson began working on his ‘Invincible’ album, he gave to Rodney Jerkins a CD with songs that would work as an inspiration for the ‘Invincible’ album, and lo and behold, the first song on that CD was Janet Jackson’s ‘Rhythm Nation’ song.
 
Keith Sweat ~ I Want Her

I think Keith Sweat's 1987 debut album (Make It Last Forever) is the 1st to actually be called New Jack Swing. At least it was the one that really made it more known to the mainstream audience because I Want Her, which was the 1st single from it, reached #5 on the Hot 100 pop chart. Keith's album made it to #15 on the pop album chart, which was pretty good for an unknown R&B singer. Especially one who did not record songs that were designed to get Top 40 pop airplay on purpose like Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, or Whitney Houston. The songs with the NJS sound before it mainly got R&B station airplay.
 
Damn I dislike practically every song that has been talked about in this thread. When I started this I was under the impression I was going to love the NJS genre. I prefer the old school soul of 60s and 70s.

Thanks for the links though DuranDuran it is appreciated.
 
New Jack Swing

Damn I dislike practically every song that has been talked about in this thread. When I started this I was under the impression I was going to love the NJS genre. I prefer the old school soul of 60s and 70s.
That's interesting because in another thread about Dangerous, several people said they would replace She Drives Me Wild, Can't Let Her Get Away, & Why You Wanna Trip On Me with other unreleased songs. Those 3 tracks sound the most like typical NJS songs, and less "Jacksonized".

NJS made the R&B you're talking about mostly obsolete on the radio. New Jack Swing was R&B singing mixed with hip hop beats & look. The old suit & tie look of Luther Vandross or The Temptations went out of style. The New Jack acts had a more street look/image like Bobby Brown & Jodeci. New Jack (and sampling) also helped to kill the R&B band, at least for getting radio airplay. New Jack Swing could fit with the rap songs that started to take over R&B radio in the late 1980s. Playing a Public Enemy song next to Anita Baker didn't really mix that well. If you're not a fan of hip hop, it's less likely you would like New Jack Swing, because they were kinda interchangable. That was the point. NJS was R&B primarily for the then black teen & young adult audience, who didn't want to listen to the "old school" R&B of their parents. NJS did manage to crossover to the mainstream pop audience in the USA because hip hop was starting to do that at the time, especially after the success of Run-DMC, The Fat Boys, & Beastie Boys.
 
New Jack Swing

Here's some New Jack Swing songs by then older artists:

James Brown
Aretha Franklin & Whitney Houston
Sheena Easton
Earth, Wind & Fire feat. The Boys

Stevie Wonder
 
Re: New Jack Swing

That's interesting because in another thread about Dangerous, several people said they would replace She Drives Me Wild, Can't Let Her Get Away, & Why You Wanna Trip On Me with other unreleased songs. Those 3 tracks sound the most like typical NJS songs, and less "Jacksonized".

It is very strange because I love those tracks. If they had been released as singles with videos I'm sure the songs would feel more love from the community though
 
Re: New Jack Swing

It is very strange because I love those tracks. If they had been released as singles with videos I'm sure the songs would feel more love from the community though
If that is the case then what they really like is the advertising and not so much the song itself, because a music video is just a commercial for a record. "Video killed the radio star." :rofl: A commercial is designed to influence people to buy things they weren't likely to buy in the first place. There's a reason companies spend many millions of dollars to have their ads shown during the Superbowl. It works really well too, look at Milli Vanilli. Get 2 pretty boys to appear in videos to advertise songs sung by less attractive session singers and get a multi-platinum smash album. They won a Grammy too. Would Gangnam Style by Psy be as successful without the video? Probably not. Milli Vanilli was not the first or last front music act, but they were the most successful. That practice goes all the way back to at least the 1960s, if not before. Rob & Fab only got caught by the public because they demanded to sing on their next record and their producer refused and spilled the beans. Rob and Fab got most of the blame and bad press.

The Jacksons have performed Can't Let Her Get Away on their recent tours. That song also got a lot of airplay on R&B stations at the time and still occasional does. That was back when radio stations would still play album tracks or B-sides. Before they got bought out by Clear Channel and other conglomerates.
 
People can be easily swayed towards liking a product. Would Billie Jean be universally loved without Motown 25? Would Thriller have sold as many copies without its iconic video? Most probably not.
I like to think I like certain music for the music itself and not because the radio plays or because some hot shot critic loves it but I've probably been influenced like any other human being in other ways
 
JichaelMackson;4301133 said:
People can be easily swayed towards liking a product. Would Billie Jean be universally loved without Motown 25?

That’s assuming that most people have seen Motown 25. I hadn’t until recently. Billie Jean came out when I was 12, and I heard it on my favorite radio show and liked it. I didn’t even know who Michael Jackson was at the time. It’s a great song with a highly original, intriguing sound. You don’t have to see the Moonwalk to notice that.
 
Billie Jean

Would Billie Jean be universally loved without Motown 25? Would Thriller have sold as many copies without its iconic video? Most probably not.
Billie Jean was already a hit before Motown 25, and without MTV. Because MTV declined to show the video at first until CBS threatened to pull their other artists. Which would have included really popular acts like Journey & Billy Joel. The Girl Is Mine became a hit without a video or any TV show performances. Most people did not even have MTV in 1982 or cable TV at all for that matter. The music video hadn't really killed the radio star yet.
I like to think I like certain music for the music itself and not because the radio plays or because some hot shot critic loves it but I've probably been influenced like any other human being in other ways
I'm not sure music critics ever helped to sell records. I've always noticed that they tend to like artists that didn't sell that well and disliked the ones who sold a lot or were mainstream popular. It's the same for TV & movie critics.
 
This is exactly what I mean though. The Girl is mine was a hit but it is now a forgotten song. Billie Jean was also already a hit but became immortal because it is now forever connected to the moonwalk. People don't even have be aware of Motown 25 the moonwalk is part of billie jean. You can't escape it, play BJ at a party and someone is bound to start a moonwalk lol

If Michael performed the moonwalk for another song perhaps BJ wouldn't be as iconic at this time. I'm thinking about DSTYGE this song is as majestic as BJ but it doesn't have a signature move and it has far less recognition.

Anyway we're going terribly off topic. In fact we never really started discussing what I initially wanted to start lol. The question remains: does Janet Jackson's album deserve more recognition than Dangerous or not?
 
The question remains: does Janet Jackson's album deserve more recognition than Dangerous or not?
I already answered that. Why would Dangerous get more recognition as a New Jack Swing album over Janet's, when it is not a New Jack Swing album? It's an album with some NJS songs on it. I'd say Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel album would qualify more than Janet's or Mike's album. It's the biggest selling album by an actual New Jack Swing artist, not an act dabbling in it. It's kinda forgotten today because of Bobby's later tabloid stories and his marriage to Whitney Houston, but he was huge back then. His album was selling more in the USA than Mike, Prince, George Michael, Madonna, etc. People got hits just because Bobby was on their song like Glenn Medeiros, similar to Rockwell's Somebody's Watching Me. Bobby wasn't invited to do the theme song for Ghostbusters 2 for nothing.
 
I'm not a Janet fan but i been thinking about listening to her music in the future. i'm shock people don't like can't let her get away and why you wanna trip on me. i'm not a fan of she drives me wild.

i'm not sure who got the most sales at the time.
 
Rhythm Nation 1814

I think Rhythm Nation 1814 had an influence on 1990s albums in a way that wasn't necessarily music based. Because after Janet's album, a lot of albums started to have interludes & skits on them. There were skits on records before the Rhythm Nation album, but they generally weren't separate tracks to themselves.
 
Good shout, I never liked skits, especially not as separate tracks

The actual tracks are pretty stellar. I think it deserves a classic status although none of the songs are ever on the radio (where I live)
 
Good shout, I never liked skits, especially not as separate tracks

The actual tracks are pretty stellar. I think it deserves a classic status although none of the songs are ever on the radio (where I live)
The good thing as having them separate is that if you didn't want to listen to the skit, just skip it and go right to the song. Couldn't do that with Black Or White (unless you bought the single which didn't have it). :D What I didn't really like were CDs, because artists starting in the 1990s decided they had to fill the entire 80 minutes with something. I think that's a reason for the skits/interludes. Before CDs, the average album was 35 to 45 minutes because records couldn't hold much more than that or they would lose sound quality. Before the 1970s the average album was 25 minutes long. A 80 minute CD is the same as a double vinyl album and just about the length of the average movie. Then some would do a double CD album, which pre-CD era, would have been a 3 or 4 record set. Prince put out a 3 CD album (Emancipation).
 
I’m not understanding why Dangerous has to be vs Rhythm Nation? Why can’t they both stand on their own? IMO, it is silly to try and pit albums or artists against others. Dangerous is great on its own and so is Rhythm Nation. They don’t sound the same. Why compare them? I’m trying to remember if a Bruce Springsteen album was compared to another artist’s album? Is it only certain artists, certain ethnic groups, etc. who are always compared, or versus each other? Just wondering?
 
FTR, I don’t consider Rhythm Nation a New Jack Swing album. It doesn’t fit into that category. Dangerous is also not a New Jack Swing album. However, it did have some NJS tracks on it. Bobby Brown, Keith Sweat albums represent NJS genre more so than Dangerous or Rhythm Nation.
 
FTR, I don’t consider Rhythm Nation a New Jack Swing album. It doesn’t fit into that category. Dangerous is also not a New Jack Swing album. However, it did have some NJS tracks on it. Bobby Brown, Keith Sweat albums represent NJS genre more so than Dangerous or Rhythm Nation.
 
somewhereinthedark;4301295 said:
I’m trying to remember if a Bruce Springsteen album was compared to another artist’s album? Is it only certain artists, certain ethnic groups, etc. who are always compared, or versus each other? Just wondering?
I've seen different albums compared to particular albums such as Sgt. Pepper, Dark Side Of The Moon, Pet Sounds, Kind Of Blue. Usually classic rock and maybe some jazz records. A lot of bands are compared to The Beatles. Technically when a magazine like Rolling Stone makes a list about the "greatest albums in history" or "greatest singers" or "greatest songs" it's comparing. Whoever is #1 is the "best". Same when somebody says so and so has the most Top 10 hits or someone sold the most or got the most views on Youtube, that's comparing. Just because an act has hit singles does not mean their music is better than someone who doesn't

somewhereinthedark;4301295 said:
FTR, I don’t consider Rhythm Nation a New Jack Swing album. It doesn’t fit into that category. Dangerous is also not a New Jack Swing album. However, it did have some NJS tracks on it. Bobby Brown, Keith Sweat albums represent NJS genre more so than Dangerous or Rhythm Nation.
I think a lot of people currently posting on this site are outside of the USA, so might have little or no exposure to New Jack Swing outside of Dangerous. Maybe not R&B in general. I think that's a reason some people here are not that interested in the music of the Jackson 5 or The Jacksons. Their music is more straight R&B, soul, & funk than Mike's solo music the same way the Commodores are compared to Lionel Richie's solo records. Lionel get a lot more airplay today than the Commodores. But it's interesting that many popular European artists music was influenced by Black American music such as The Beatles, Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones, Fleetwood Mac, Simply Red, Wham!/George Michael, Level 42, Jamiroquai, Sade, Loose Ends, 5 Star, Brand New Heavies, Incognito, David Bowie, The Police/Sting, Phil Collins, Steve Winwood, etc.
 
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