Albums Dangerous vs Rhythm Nation 1814

[JichaelMackson]

This is probably a daft thread on an MJ forum but I'm curious to your opinions anyway.

Janet Jackson's album influenced Michael's dangerous a lot and it is often considered the best new jack swing album out there.
Michael's effort usually doesn't get the same high credit as Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 and we find it undeserving but does Janet's album deserve all the glowing praise?

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?

[Mikky Dee]

This is probably a daft thread on an MJ forum but I'm curious to your opinions anyway.

Janet Jackson's album influenced Michael's dangerous a lot and it is often considered the best new jack swing album out there.
Michael's effort usually doesn't get the same high credit as Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814 and we find it undeserving but does Janet's album deserve all the glowing praise?

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?

This is an interesting idea for a thread! (I usually do like your thread ideas)

I really hope you have some knowledgeable people with good music heads on their shoulders, contributing and answering/discussing your questions. The only NJS album I know anything about is "Dangerous" and I am not a Janet fan at all.....I like only a handful of her songs; therefore I don't really feel qualified to contribute. From the place of not really being a Janet fan, my knee-jerk reaction would be to say that Rhythm Nation doesn't deserve all the glowing praise. Perhaps the praise it it has received over the years, is within the framework of the sub-group of female artists, rather than all artists (??)

[DuranDuran]

The difference is Janet's album came out when New Jack was still really hot (in the USA). Dangerous was released close to 1992, when NJS was beginning to be on the way out in the mainstream. I don't know how popular New Jack Swing was outside of the USA, but it was all over the radio here starting around 1987 to the early 1990s. The Jacksons had New Jack Swing on the 1989 2300 Jackson Street album and so did Randy in the same year with his group Randy & The Gypsys. The hottest selling New Jack album at the time was Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel. Bobby's album came out in early 1988, close to 4 years before Dangerous. Then Mike released the non-New Jack song Black Or White as the 1st single.

Dangerous is half a New Jack Swing album. It's kind of like he didn't really commit to the sound like he did with the disco & funk influenced Off The Wall. A fully NJS album wouldn't have had songs like Heal The World, Gone Too Soon, & Give In To Me on it. I'm talking about the sound of them, not the lyrics. Janet's album had a rock song (Black Cat) but it still had a funky dance beat. Give In To Me is more like a Bon Jovi power ballad, not a NJS slow jam. It even sounds similar to Alone Again by Dokken.

[DuranDuran]

Now that we're at it what are some other influential highly praised New Jack Swing albums and songs out there?

This 1985 song by Full Force is one of the first NJS songs, although the sound didn't have a name yet.

If you're not familiar with Full Force, 3 of them were the bullies in the 1st House Party movie with Kid n Play. They also produced some songs for the British singer Samantha Fox. But the songs they did for her are more like Latin Freestyle and house music, not NJS. You also might want to check out the "go-go" genre, which was an influence on the NJS sound. Go-go is from Washington DC and started in the 1970s. It never really got any radio popularity, but a few go-go songs became R&B hits though. Maybe 2 or 3 became Top 40 pop hits. The song Ashley's Roachclip by the go-go band Chuck Brown & The Soul Searchers has been sampled on many songs.

[JichaelMackson]

This is an interesting idea for a thread! (I usually do like your thread ideas)

I really hope you have some knowledgeable people with good music heads on their shoulders, contributing and answering/discussing your questions. The only NJS album I know anything about is "Dangerous" and I am not a Janet fan at all.....I like only a handful of her songs; therefore I don't really feel qualified to contribute. From the place of not really being a Janet fan, my knee-jerk reaction would be to say that Rhythm Nation doesn't deserve all the glowing praise. Perhaps the praise it it has received over the years, is within the framework of the sub-group of female artists, rather than all artists (??)

You are really too kind Mikky Dee :-)
Have you tried the album? It's actually really good

The difference is Janet's album came out when New Jack was still really hot (in the USA). Dangerous was released close to 1992, when NJS was beginning to be on the way out in the mainstream. I don't know how popular New Jack Swing was outside of the USA, but it was all over the radio here starting around 1987 to the early 1990s. The Jacksons had New Jack Swing on the 1989 2300 Jackson Street album and so did Randy in the same year with his group Randy & The Gypsys. The hottest selling New Jack album at the time was Bobby Brown's Don't Be Cruel. Bobby's album came out in early 1988, close to 4 years before Dangerous. Then Mike released the non-New Jack song Black Or White as the 1st single.

Dangerous is half a New Jack Swing album. It's kind of like he didn't really commit to the sound like he did with the disco & funk influenced Off The Wall. A fully NJS album wouldn't have had songs like Heal The World, Gone Too Soon, & Give In To Me on it. I'm talking about the sound of them, not the lyrics. Janet's album had a rock song (Black Cat) but it still had a funky dance beat. Give In To Me is more like a Bon Jovi power ballad, not a NJS slow jam. It even sounds similar to Alone Again by Dokken.

Yeah I heard he was coming late to the party, perhaps that's why some of the songs had rather poor chart runs in the USA. From what I can tell NJS was purely a USA thing as Janet's singles didn't set the charts on fire in Europe while they were smash hits in the USA.

I feel though from the small number of NJS songs I heard that the Dangerous songs are more complex (the beat) and deeper than the average sound of NJS, there is more going on I feel. Is it fair to say that "dangerous" was like the last hurrah of the genre. Especially since rock music seemed to take over the charts for a while after Dangerous.

BTW are those beats created through drum machines and samples or does it contain lots of live playing as well?

[DuranDuran]

Yeah I heard he was coming late to the party, perhaps that's why some of the songs had rather poor chart runs in the USA. From what I can tell NJS was purely a USA thing as Janet's singles didn't set the charts on fire in Europe while they were smash hits in the USA.

I feel though from the small number of NJS songs I heard that the Dangerous songs are more complex (the beat) and deeper than the average sound of NJS, there is more going on I feel. Is it fair to say that "dangerous" was like the last hurrah of the genre. Especially since rock music seemed to take over the charts for a while after Dangerous.

BTW are those beats created through drum machines and samples or does it contain lots of live playing as well?

A lot of the beats were programming, but some of it was done with the electronic drum kits popular in the 1980s. Some were done with drum machines where you have to hit the pads live. The thing with Dangerous is that by that time it was released NJS was getting watered down and seemed like everybody was doing it, just like disco was by 1979 when there were disco records by Mickey Mouse, The Chipmunks, Frank Sinatra, & The Beach Boys. Disco Duck by Rick Dees reached #1. When you get to the point where Celine Dion & the Rolling Stones are releasing NJS songs or remixes, it's oversaturated. Prince tried to jump on the New Jack bandwagon too in the early 1990s. David Bowie did a song with Al B. Sure!. Al was one of the first NJS singers to become popular.

I wouldn't say rock music took over the pop singles charts after Dangerous. It was more like club dance music & house music (maybe techno to a lesser extent) plus hip hop and some contemporary country like Garth Brooks, Shania Twain, & Alan Jackson. Ace Of Base is an example of a really popular dance music group in the USA at the time. It was a time when remix maxi singles & remix albums were still popular. Grunge was more popular as an album seller than a Top 40 pop radio singles one. They even came up with a special radio format for that called alternative rock. MTV had a show called 120 Minutes that showed music videos by the alternative rock acts.

[ScreenOrigami]

This 1985 song by Full Force is one of the first NJS songs, although the sound didn't have a name yet.

If you're not familiar with Full Force, 3 of them were the bullies in the 1st House Party movie with Kid n Play. They also produced some songs for the British singer Samantha Fox. But the songs they did for her are more like Latin Freestyle and house music, not NJS. You also might want to check out the "go-go" genre, which was an influence on the NJS sound. Go-go is from Washington DC and started in the 1970s. It never really got any radio popularity, but a few go-go songs became R&B hits though. Maybe 2 or 3 became Top 40 pop hits. The song Ashley's Roachclip by the go-go band Chuck Brown & The Soul Searchers has been sampled on many songs.

Thanks for this. I always find it very interesting to hear the roots or early examples of what would later become a genre. It helps to better understand what the genre is. I must say, your deep knowledge of music history never disappoints.

[mj_frenzy]

When Michael Jackson began working on his ‘Dangerous’ album, he originally asked Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis to produce the new jack swing songs on the album.

But the duo refused due to their loyalty and commitment to Janet Jackson at that time.

Then, Michael Jackson asked Teddy Riley to produce the new jack swing songs on the album, Teddy Riley immediately agreed and the rest is history.

It is worth noting that it was not just the sound of his sister’s ‘Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation 1814’ album that influenced a lot the ‘Dangerous’ album, but it was also the sound of the ‘Spend The Night’ song (from the ‘Guy’ album released in 1988) that influenced a lot the ‘Dangerous’ album, a song that was produced by Teddy Riley and his band.

Michael Jackson really liked the angular sound of the ‘Spend The Night’ song and he wanted a similar sound for his ‘Dangerous’ album.

It is also worth mentioning that years later when Michael Jackson began working on his ‘Invincible’ album, he gave to Rodney Jerkins a CD with songs that would work as an inspiration for the ‘Invincible’ album, and lo and behold, the first song on that CD was Janet Jackson’s ‘Rhythm Nation’ song.

[DuranDuran]

[DuranDuran]

I think Keith Sweat's 1987 debut album (Make It Last Forever) is the 1st to actually be called New Jack Swing. At least it was the one that really made it more known to the mainstream audience because I Want Her, which was the 1st single from it, reached #5 on the Hot 100 pop chart. Keith's album made it to #15 on the pop album chart, which was pretty good for an unknown R&B singer. Especially one who did not record songs that were designed to get Top 40 pop airplay on purpose like Lionel Richie, Tina Turner, or Whitney Houston. The songs with the NJS sound before it mainly got R&B station airplay.

[DuranDuran]

[JichaelMackson]

Damn I dislike practically every song that has been talked about in this thread. When I started this I was under the impression I was going to love the NJS genre. I prefer the old school soul of 60s and 70s.

Thanks for the links though DuranDuran it is appreciated.

[DuranDuran]

Damn I dislike practically every song that has been talked about in this thread. When I started this I was under the impression I was going to love the NJS genre. I prefer the old school soul of 60s and 70s.

That's interesting because in another thread about Dangerous, several people said they would replace She Drives Me Wild, Can't Let Her Get Away, & Why You Wanna Trip On Me with other unreleased songs. Those 3 tracks sound the most like typical NJS songs, and less "Jacksonized".

NJS made the R&B you're talking about mostly obsolete on the radio. New Jack Swing was R&B singing mixed with hip hop beats & look. The old suit & tie look of Luther Vandross or The Temptations went out of style. The New Jack acts had a more street look/image like Bobby Brown & Jodeci. New Jack (and sampling) also helped to kill the R&B band, at least for getting radio airplay. New Jack Swing could fit with the rap songs that started to take over R&B radio in the late 1980s. Playing a Public Enemy song next to Anita Baker didn't really mix that well. If you're not a fan of hip hop, it's less likely you would like New Jack Swing, because they were kinda interchangable. That was the point. NJS was R&B primarily for the then black teen & young adult audience, who didn't want to listen to the "old school" R&B of their parents. NJS did manage to crossover to the mainstream pop audience in the USA because hip hop was starting to do that at the time, especially after the success of Run-DMC, The Fat Boys, & Beastie Boys.

[DuranDuran]

Here's some New Jack Swing songs by then older artists:

James Brown

Aretha Franklin & Whitney Houston

Sheena Easton

Earth, Wind & Fire feat. The Boys

Stevie Wonder

[JichaelMackson]

That's interesting because in another thread about Dangerous, several people said they would replace She Drives Me Wild, Can't Let Her Get Away, & Why You Wanna Trip On Me with other unreleased songs. Those 3 tracks sound the most like typical NJS songs, and less "Jacksonized".

It is very strange because I love those tracks. If they had been released as singles with videos I'm sure the songs would feel more love from the community though