Arguing with a Hater about 1993..

Gonetoosoon

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I'm currently arguing back and forth with this absolute wanker on Youtube. You may have heard of him - stonegrooved. I was wondering could someone help me with a response to this comment?

"That's funny! You fans don't believe the court documents either. There is a document? that states very clearly that Jordan Chandler's drawing is "substantially corroborated" by the photgraphs taken of MJ's penis. That means that Jordie nailed the discoloration on Jacko's tinkie winkie and "WAS NOT something he could or would have guessed about or seen accidentally."

But that's all a big fat lie, right?"


Can someone give me the appropriate information? I've been trying to look up info throughout this forum, and I remember seeing a thread a while ago - but it appears to have gone..

Any help appreciated!
 
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teli-mj

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Ask him what did Jordan say in his description , ask him to show you the official document of the description and then ask him that if Jordan nailed the description why wasn't Mike arrested. Surrely Tom Sneddon wouldn't have left that chance skip his finger if the description was a match,right?

Then ask him if Jordan nailed the description, why the two grand juries that Sneddon took the case, didn't indict MJ? That is TWO separate grand juries.

In this case is not you who has to proove something to him but otherwise. (and you should tell him, if you would like to keep arguing with him) He has to prove to you , with facts and official documents, why he says what he says. You don't because 1) in 2005 Mike was aquitted 2)if Mike was guilty he would have given money to the family before the whole thing became known to the world and to the police, Mike was never arrested after the picture were taken, in 1993 two grand juries had the chance to see all the evinces presented to them by Sneddon and they still refused to send the case on trial. (this are only few facts about the 1993 case) So, where are his proofs of supporting what he says? And personal opinion doesn't count.

P.S I would really recomment to you to not argue with him. The guy is probably someone without anyone or anything to do in his life, someone who is craving for attention, that's why he keeps trolling the MJ videos.
 

HIStory

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Here are some good articles about that:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/20...bout-it-but-were-always-afraid-to-ask-part-1/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/20...-know-about-it-but-were-afraid-to-ask-part-2/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/20...-know-about-it-but-were-afraid-to-ask-part-3/

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/20...plotch-missing-from-the-smokin-gunpublic-eye/

Also the Chandlers knew well about Michael's vitilgo and what that means for how his private parts should look. This is a conversaton between Evan and their lawyer Larry Feldman right from Ray's book!

“… Tell me something, Evan. Is Jordie happy? Is he aware of where we are right now?”

“Everybody asks me that question, Larry. He was a lot happier a couple of weeks ago than he is now. I’m beginning to see the effects of time draggin’ on.”

“I’m sure of that….Oh, yeah, Lauren Weis told me today that this disease Michael says he’s got, vitiligo, that’s it’s capable of changing anywhere you look, so that anything Jordie says is irrelevant. It can change very quickly with this disease.”

“Shit, these guys seem to have an answer for everything.”

“No, that’s good for us!”

“Why?”

“Because if he’s right, he’s right. And if he’s wrong, we’ve got an explanation!“

“Ha!”

“Yeah, it’s a no-loser for us.”



And BTW Jordan said Michael was circumcised. He was NOT! How is that a match?
 

HIStory

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"That's funny! You fans don't believe the court documents either. There is a document? that states very clearly that Jordan Chandler's drawing is "substantially corroborated" by the photgraphs taken of MJ's penis.

There is only one "court document" saying this - that's Sneddon's declaration. He says if I remember correctly his "belief" is that it's a match (sorry, I don't have time now to look into the exact wording of it). Anyway it's just what Sneddon claimed. Hardly an unbiased party.
 

PaceMioDolceCuore

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"Please hold. All muses are busy right now, but yo
The last thing I would do is argue with a hater about the condition of anyone's genitalia, especially if it's a hater. Hater's gonna hate, so the last thing I would be doing is humiliating Michael once more, since that is exactly what that type of hater has in mind.

I always check thrice if there is even the slightest change to change the outlook of one mind. A hater with that approach doesn't need information, he's looking to bait you to prove to you that you 'fan' are as "crazy as Michael Jackson himself." I spare myself that kind blood pressure elevating exercise.

You know when you meet someone who just needs information.
 
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bluetopez

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It was Tom Sneedon who determined there was a close match when there really wasn't He was the one that spread that false hood around in his report. But, the actual professionals that were there doing the strip search on MJ said there was no match!
 

LindavG

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The last thing I would do is argue with a hater about the condition of anyone's genitalia, especially if it's a hater. Hater's gonna hate, so the last thing I would be doing is humiliating Michael once more, since that is exactly what that type of hater has in mind.

I always check thrice if there is even the slightest change to change the outlook of one mind. A hater with that approach doesn't need information, he's looking to bait you to prove to you that you 'fan' are as "crazy as Michael Jackson himself." I spare myself that kind blood pressure elevating exercise.

You know when you meet someone who just needs information.

Exactly. I don't even know why you would go through all that trouble trying to convince an obvious hater. Even if you did "win" this argument, he'll just find something else to bash Michael for. These people are not interested in learning the truth. They just find it entertaining to rile up MJ fans and I've noticed it's often also insecure fans of other artists that can't stand to see Michael overtaking their idols (ever brought up MJ on an Elvis/Beatles fan board? Not recommendable). As PMDC said, it's better to save your energy for people that are genuinly interested in finding out the truth. You will know when you encounter them.
 

8701girl

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I dont bother trying to convince haters anymore as they just dont wanna belive anything we say.
 

Lucilla

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Thanks to all the members who helped with an answer. But it's better if you save your energy to convince doubters instead of haters, some of them have their youtube channel completely dedicated to their MJ-hate. Choose your battles, it's not about who will have the last word, it's about changing people's opinions. Like Pace,MioDolceCuore said, haters gonna hate.
 

man.in.the.mirror

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Exactly. I don't even know why you would go through all that trouble trying to convince an obvious hater. Even if you did "win" this argument, he'll just find something else to bash Michael for. These people are not interested in learning the truth. They just find it entertaining to rile up MJ fans and I've noticed it's often also insecure fans of other artists that can't stand to see Michael overtaking their idols (ever brought up MJ on an Elvis/Beatles fan board? Not recommendable). As PMDC said, it's better to save your energy for people that are genuinly interested in finding out the truth. You will know when you encounter them.

Thanks to all the members who helped with an answer. But it's better if you save your energy to convince doubters instead of haters, some of them have their youtube channel completely dedicated to their MJ-hate. Choose your battles, it's not about who will have the last word, it's about changing people's opinions. Like Pace,MioDolceCuore said, haters gonna hate.
i totally agree with both of you,most of these haters only motive is to get a rise out of mj fans,they are simply not interested in finding out the truth,even if you present them with it,like lucila said save your energy to convince the doubters,I know it makes you angry i have come across many ignorant coments like these,but when i have clicked on to their channels u can tell the kind of sick twisted individuals they are,they are simply not worth wating your breath on,
 

Gonetoosoon

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Thanks guys for all your comments. I realise he's not worth my time and effort; it just got me so frustrated seeing him leave comments on EVERY Michael video. I thought I'd try and shut the bastard up. It's pretty pathetic because he spends almost as much time watching/commenting on Michael vids than we do. The guy needs to seriously get a life.

Anyway ahh. I'm over talking to him. Thanks all
 

maral

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i know who you are talking about and there's no reasoning with him/her. he/she got all the facts wrong and when fans set things strait he/she argues with "but why did he setled?". stupid is as stupid does i guess.

there's another idiot who post on youtube claiming his/her brother was molested by MJ but they never reported it....... crazy people


bottom line is, and i'm one of the skeptical fans who question everything from alarm in his bedroom to books that were presented in the trial, IF there was a match there would be an arrest! maybe not a trial but they would have grounds to arrest him!
 

Rhilo

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Yeah, this person (I think I know who you are talking about) is a bigoted attention whore. Ignore is what I do.
 

PoP

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I had feuds with haters about 1993 as well at another anime forum, they just don't fricken listen, bunch of retards they are. I gave them facts and they just can't get it straight in their heads. I just oughta punch the senses right into their faces.
 

PaceMioDolceCuore

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"Please hold. All muses are busy right now, but yo
...They just find it entertaining to rile up MJ fans and I've noticed it's often also insecure fans of other artists ...

I think that insecurity goes both ways. I normally wouldn't put my hand into the fire for someone, but for some reason I was willing to do that for MJ and did so since 1993 when it was not cool at all and a lot of fans have put their hands into the fire for him.
Since I somehow have that faith in Michael, I am not easily compelled to descend into any kind of shouting match, especially not in places like the comment section on youtube...
_________________________________________________________________
Whenever I hear an ignorant comment about Michael, it still hurts inside, but no troll on youtube can lessen my admiration and respect for him. If people decide to stand up for someone they love, they need to learn to do that with the respect that they would like to see MJ being surrounded with.
You have to get to the point that you yourself are secure enough so that some baiting troll has no longer the power to perpetuate vulgar untrue things. MJ fans shouldn't even think about going near such vulgarity with a ten foot pole by dignifying that nonsense.

Whenever you sense that somebody is just using a deceased to make some imaginary points, you have to learn to walk away. Not worth your effort. Other people are. Michael knows you love him, no need to prove it to someone who isn't below shooting below the belt.

Nobody in life or death will be loved by all people, that goes for Michael as much as for ourselves. There will always be someone who just plain doesn't like your face.

But then there are people who are very willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, to listen to another perspective and who are willing to think through new information they might not have had before- and those are the people that merit the effort.

If I run across a video that is offensive, I just flag it in the appropriate category- hate speech, discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation etc. Granted, "MJ hater with spell check turned off" should be it's own category, but you have to work with what you got there. :smilerolleyes:
 
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bluetopez

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^ I honestly think their people even on YouTube on a mission to keep people in the dark from the truth about those allegations. It's just not normal for anyone to spend so much time trying to convince others about something that never happened!
 

Maria MJ

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Normally I block and report haters without engaging to conversations with them. It's pointless and it gives them just what they're after: attention.
 

MJTKOP-NYTRAM

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A hater, well I don't have time for haters and no matter what you said to them, they are keep going, because clearly they don't have a live.
Now Michael has passed away, they can't feed anymore through the tabloids, and now they are after the fans.
For what, because they have a sick mind.
 

Courtney

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Discussing Michael Jackson with the haters is worse than discussing politics. I don't even bother anymore with it. It is ridiculous to fight with morons. They all have to say the same thing over and over but can't provide any proof to their weak idiotic arguments.

Some people are evil...and some are just damn stupid.
 

Ashtanga

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Discussing Michael Jackson with the haters is worse than discussing politics. I don't even bother anymore with it. It is ridiculous to fight with morons. They all have to say the same thing over and over but can't provide any proof to their weak idiotic arguments.

Some people are evil...and some are just damn stupid.

I completely agree with you. That's exactly what happens... :( *big sigh*
 

HakaVelli

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Can someone give me the appropriate information? I've been trying to look up info throughout this forum, and I remember seeing a thread a while ago - but it appears to have gone..

Any help appreciated!

Funny that you need someone else's help for something that you should have known. Because i take it you believe MJ is not guilty?
 

la_cienega

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I dont bother trying to convince haters anymore as they just dont wanna belive anything we say.

Arguing with haters on public forums actually does help.

People are so uninformed about everything MJ that when you provide facts and not emotion, you can actually see them start rethinking their position.

But this hater on youtube is infamous - their name is "Stonegrooved" and they spam MJ websites/youtube with the same repetative statements about MJ over and over and over again. They have no intention of getting into a real discussion or looking up the facts, in fact everything they say is almost childish in how poorly informed they are, especially considering they seek to speak to MJ fans all the time. They recently said JC testified in court under oath - they have no idea what they're talking about.

Like Bluetopaz said - it was Sneddon who said it was a match, he was the one who wrote that in the court documents in order that the court would allow the use of the photos in the trial in 2005. Keep in mind that Michael stripped in December 1993 and had photos taken and these were put up against Jordan Chandler's description - and Michael was not arrested. Then Chandler's own team said they either wanted to see the photos themselves, have them taken again or BAR the photos from court. There was no reason to take more photos other than for the fact that they did not match originally. That is why they themselves even wished them blocked from being shown to the court in 1994.

But without the Chandler's the photos/description were entered into the 2 juries in 1994. Neither reached an indictement and one juror stated "no damaging evidence" had been shown.

Clearly there was no match.
 
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