Asking ourselves tough questions.

NatureCriminal7896

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The "community" is admiring a man who has had troubles with justice for the last 16 years of his life, and who still has, even after his death. Despite all the efforts that have been made to try to prove that he was manipulated, you can't pretend that everyone in the community believes he was 100% innocent. This would be hightly hypocritical. If you don't accept that the community might now be made of people with very different opinions on the man's life, then I think you can't call it a community anymore.

I agree with your statement. you can be a fan and have different opinions from others. but Michael is innocent that's doesn't really need to be an opinion unless some fans thinks he's not. i'm not one of those fans. i believe he's 100% innocent. i just can't see Michael harming children when he was once him self was abuse. it doesn't make any sense.

Michael is 100% innocent.
 

NatureCriminal7896

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Why don't you just do it ? Why do you want to pretend that there are no questions amongst the community ? Why do you want to avoid the fact that there are some people who were fans and who have to struggle today because they believe they were wrong about their idol ? These people exist and I'm sorry you have to accept it. You are wasting your time and energy.

There some fans that has left the MJfam. but i find that silly. i'm sure half of them will be back when they realize Michael didn't do anything.
 

JCO8

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There some fans that has left the MJfam. but i find that silly. i'm sure half of them will be back when they realize Michael didn't do anything.

Nothing is silly. Some people have their reasons to leave, some have their reasons to stay. Some stay today and will leave tomorrow. Some leave today and will come back. And some will never change, whatever their opinion might be. Everyone does what they feel and it's perfectly fine, as long as they are being honest with themselves and don't judge the opinions of others and their decisions.

Don't forget that you can also feel a strong link with Michael Jackson and not belong to any community. And I believe this is the vast majority of people. At first, all of this is very personal, and nobody has he right to judge the relation you have to an artist.
 
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Mikky Dee

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The rest of your intervention is insulting and doesn't bring anything, but I'm going to answer this one because it's a fair question.

Personally (speaking now without my moderator hat on) I find your sanctimonious ways to be insulting to other members. Your rationalisations and cerebral gymnastics don't really bring anything, yet they are tolerated by others. Maybe you could learn something from that.

I do not understand how someone with your current views regarding MJ can actually still call yourself a fan. In fact, I don't really believe it......I think that is a lie, or some kind of smoke screen, to ensure that you can continue to post your musings here. If I believed him to be guilty, I would no longer be a fan, nor would I be camped on a forum dedicated to the man......I would find other more productive ways to spend my time. You clearly get off on arguing with people, or being contrary.
 

JCO8

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Personally (speaking now without my moderator hat on) I find your sanctimonious ways to be insulting to other members. Your rationalisations and cerebral gymnastics don't really bring anything, yet they are tolerated by others. Maybe you could learn something from that.

I do not understand how someone with your current views regarding MJ can actually still call yourself a fan. In fact, I don't really believe it......I think that is a lie, or some kind of smoke screen, to ensure that you can continue to post your musings here. If I believed him to be guilty, I would no longer be a fan, nor would I be camped on a forum dedicated to the man......I would find other more productive ways to spend my time. You clearly get off on arguing with people, or being contrary.

You already told me this kind of things in private, Mikky. I'm sorry you don't believe me, I can't do anything to convince you, and I don't want to. I thought you would have noticed in my interventions that I've always had a problem with the word "fan", even when I considered myself to be one. And yes, of course I'm not a fan anymore (whatever this word means), in the sense that I can't relate to this artist the way I used to. That's why I said we all have a different history, a different relationship, a different link to this artist. And I still have a link to him, and I know I always will. It's not something you erase like that, even after this documentary that I believe to be telling the truth.

Now I understand you don't get why I'm still here, even if I tried to explain it in several ways. But I know why I'm here. Now if you don't want me here anymore, just tell me clearly and I will go.

Concerning my "sanctimonious ways to be insulting to other members", I understand how you can feel that if you think that I'm faking. Just imagine if I'm sincere, how insulting these few members are to me.
 
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Laurendaccio

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The "community" is admiring a man who has had troubles with justice for the last 16 years of his life, and who still has, even after his death. Despite all the efforts that have been made to try to prove that he was manipulated, you can't pretend that everyone in the community believes he was 100% innocent. This would be hightly hypocritical. If you don't accept that the community might now be made of people with very different opinions on the man's life, then I think you can't call it a community anymore.

There is defintly a community since the vast majority of MJ fans believe a 100% in his innocence , but you are right , it cannot be a community for YOU since you dont share this belief which is a MAJOR difference that prevent you from connecting with our community .That why i said you are not part of our community anymore and that you need to find or create your own community with people who felt betrayed by MJ but still love him as an artist .This place is clearly not for you since the vast majority is hostile to your position so you must go . The only highly hypocrite here is you .
 

Soundmind

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Personally (speaking now without my moderator hat on) I find your sanctimonious ways to be insulting to other members. Your rationalisations and cerebral gymnastics don't really bring anything, yet they are tolerated by others. Maybe you could learn something from that.

I do not understand how someone with your current views regarding MJ can actually still call yourself a fan. In fact, I don't really believe it......I think that is a lie, or some kind of smoke screen, to ensure that you can continue to post your musings here. If I believed him to be guilty, I would no longer be a fan, nor would I be camped on a forum dedicated to the man......I would find other more productive ways to spend my time. You clearly get off on arguing with people, or being contrary.

This attention seeker is here to try and sway other fans into believing he was a monster and that they could still like his music but should believe he was a paedophile. Whenever there is a poster with doubt this poster hurries to lend support and take the opportunity to express its convictions about MJ's guilt. This is not a fan with doubt. This is someone who believes he was guilty and wants others to believe so. Don't buy for a minute this member is not fully active on twitter and other platforms calling MJ and his fans every name under the sun. This claim about not being able to talk outside the community about their doubts is simply a LIE. They are talking and talking very loud but they want other fans to flip also. hardly 100 posts in more than 8 years most of them in this thread. That's not a fan.
 

Laurendaccio

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You already told me this kind of things in private, Mikky. I'm sorry you don't believe me, I can't do anything to convince you, and I don't want to. I thought you would have noticed in my interventions that I've always had a problem with the word "fan", even when I considered myself to be one. And yes, of course I'm not a fan anymore (whatever this word means), in the sense that I can't relate to this artist the way I used to. That's why I said we all have a different history, a different relationship, a different link to this artist. And I still have a link to him, and I know I always will. It's not something you erase like that, even after this documentary that I believe to be telling the truth.

Now I understand you don't get why I'm still here, even if I tried to explain it in several ways. But I know why I'm here. Now if you don't want me here anymore, just tell me clearly and I will go.

Concerning my "sanctimonious ways to be insulting to other members", I understand how you can feel that if you think that I'm faking. Just imagine if I'm sincere, how insulting these few members are to me.


What else can you be here for if not to try anything to convince fans that MJ is a pedophile and that we must let go of him ? You keep saying that everyone has the right of his opinion but the only thing you want is to convince MJJC that MJ si a pedophile for what reason ? Why is it important for you that we share that opinion ? Why dont you let us in our "delusions" and keep going on with your own life letting go of MJ ? Can't you see how utterly hypocritical and delusional you come accross ? .

I am asking you to go you clearly is not welcomed here anymore . This thread needs to be showed openly so that the whole forum see what is going on over here and demand GAZ to intervene and tell his true feelings so that authentic fans can take their responsibility as to whether they still want to stay here or not .
 
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Laurendaccio

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Nothing is silly. Some people have their reasons to leave, some have their reasons to stay. Some stay today and will leave tomorrow. Some leave today and will come back. And some will never change, whatever their opinion might be. Everyone does what they feel and it's perfectly fine, as long as they are being honest with themselves and don't judge the opinions of others and their decisions.

Don't forget that you can also feel a strong link with Michael Jackson and not belong to any community. And I believe this is the vast majority of people. At first, all of this is very personal, and nobody has he right to judge the relation you have to an artist.

Nobody here is judging the relations you have with MJ .But you joined a community and in a community there are tacit rules . You cannot go to a tennis club full of passionate tennis fans and keep bitching about how bad tennis is , how you hate this sport;All you doing is preventing passionate fans to ENJOY their sport freely by spewing negative things on it .How are they going to enjoy it when you try to make them feel guilty of doing this ? . Nobody is trying to prevent you from not liking MJ , or believing that he is a pedophile , you have THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE HE IS A PEDOPHILE nobody can take that away from you , but you can NOT do it in a community dedicated to love , praise and RESPECT the man . Respect here means BELIEVE IN HIS INNOCENCE A 100% .You just CANNOT , this is bulshit !!

Do it in your OWN community , not here
 
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1nn5

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Nobody here is judging the relations you have with MJ .But you joined a community and in a community there are tacit rules . You cannot go to a tennis club full of passionate tennis fans and keep bitching about how bad tennis is , how you hate this sport;All you doing is preventing passionate fans to ENJOY their sport freely by spewing negative things on it .How are they going to enjoy it when you try to make them feel guilty of doing this ? . Nobody is trying to prevent you from not liking MJ , or believing that he is a pedophile , you have THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE HE IS A PEDOPHILE nobody can take that away from you , but you can NOT do it in a community dedicated to love , praise and RESPECT the man . Respect here means BELIEVE IN HIS INNOCENCE A 100% .You just CANNOT , this is bulshit !!

Do it in your OWN community , not here

Don't waste your time trying to explain him.
He knows what's the goal of this community.
I wish Gaz show us his deleted posts, then you will see what the REAL opinion of JC08 about MJ.
 

Laurendaccio

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Don't waste your time trying to explain him.
He knows what's the goal of this community.
I wish Gaz show us his deleted posts, then you will see what the REAL opinion of JC08 about MJ.

Well i know exactly what he thinks , dont worry . I just want moderators and the @Admin to read the posts so that they can understand our position to NOT include people who believe he is a pedophile in a community dedicated to love, praise and respect . Hopefully more fans join this thread to expose this poster and make it clear what it means to be part of a FAN community .
 

WannaScream

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I didn’t read everything fully but I don’t want to get involved in actively pushing others out (I suppose it feels like bullying) and I think it’s up to the moderators if they feel it’s necessary to remove members that don’t fit with the forum ethos. Having said that I can definitely understand the problem that is being brought up. I think this thread is good for fans who want to resolve any uncertainties they have, by asking questions and actually wanting answers or reassurance. Posting a Dan Reed link with none of this being apparent does seem like spreading negativity for the sake of it. I personally joined the forum to get away from that. At least it's only one thread tucked away amongst many though ( although I’m pretty perplexed about the scenario where MJ was put in the list of people to avoid!?!?!). I also want to add I think it’s unfair to be rude to the moderators, they are just keeping the forum running smoothly according to the rules and without them this place would clearly be complete chaos!
 

JCO8

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Soundmind;4258203 said:
This is someone who believes he was guilty and wants others to believe so.

I don't want anybody to believe anything. I want people with doubts regarding their feelings towards MJ to know that it's possible to have been a fan and to believe now that MJ was guilty.

Soundmind;4258203 said:
Don't buy for a minute this member is not fully active on twitter and other platforms calling MJ and his fans every name under the sun.

If you think so, I have no problem with that. I can't prove you a negative anyway.

Soundmind;4258203 said:
This claim about not being able to talk outside the community about their doubts is simply a LIE.

I didn't claim that. You're twisting my words so they can fit your agenda. I said I thought it would be easier to be understood in a place like this. Maybe I was wrong. Well, actually a few people contacted me in private. They don't want to talk on the forum because they're afraid of being eaten alive by people like you.

Soundmind;4258203 said:
hardly 100 posts in more than 8 years most of them in this thread. That's not a fan.

Wow. Impressive conclusion, but I doubt you would make a good detective. First, you don't have to be a member of a community or a forum to be a "fan". Secondly, I'm not sure you care but I've been an active member of the MJFrance forum for more than 15 years with this exact same user name. The forum shut down one year ago or so but I guess you should find some traces of me over there if you feel the need to conduct an in-depth investigation.

WannaScream;4258232 said:
(although I’m pretty perplexed about the scenario where MJ was put in the list of people to avoid!?!?!)

You're right to be perplexed. It's the 2nd time this member brings this out.

What happened is that I tried to make fun of that "list of people you want to avoid" by saying that even MJ himself had been criticising his own self and his own work, so to be logical he also deserved to be on that list. I used "reductio ad absurdum", "raisonnement par l'absurde" as we say in french. Of course, some people didn't get the irony and use that to label me the way they decided. This list is nothing but an expression of hatred. Delation, lists of people, are some of the worst things the human beeing is capable of. History has proven so many times.
 
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Laurendaccio

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WannaScream;4258232 said:
I didn’t read everything fully but I don’t want to get involved in actively pushing others out (I suppose it feels like bullying) and I think it’s up to the moderators if they feel it’s necessary to remove members that don’t fit with the forum ethos. Having said that I can definitely understand the problem that is being brought up. I think this thread is good for fans who want to resolve any uncertainties they have, by asking questions and actually wanting answers or reassurance. Posting a Dan Reed link with none of this being apparent does seem like spreading negativity for the sake of it. I personally joined the forum to get away from that. At least it's only one thread tucked away amongst many though ( although I’m pretty perplexed about the scenario where MJ was put in the list of people to avoid!?!?!). I also want to add I think it’s unfair to be rude to the moderators, they are just keeping the forum running smoothly according to the rules and without them this place would clearly be complete chaos!

If wanting this place to be a place of love , praise and respect for the artist that it is focused on means to be a bully then we dont have the same definition nor vision of this word . For me just the fact of having a thread dedicated to people who believe he is a pedophile is already a huge step towards chaos and i think when posters who are involved in a place see something is leading to the wrong direction then it's perfectly legitimate to protest and ask for anwers , as i already said it's completly delusional to think that a thread like that wouldnt create any strong feelings and hostility towards the posters , it does and it's perfectly logical .
 
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Anyone that has done proper research into all this stuff can really only come to one conclusion. And that's that Wade and James are opportunists, that is crystal clear. Jordan and Arvizo? Only one thing I can say to that....LMAO. He didn't abuse any of the accusers. All of the proof and facts show that, it's very easy to see once proper research has been done.

Now there will always be some people that say "just because he didn't abuse those doesn't mean he never harmed a child." and there's only one answer for that.... I pity those people.

It's really not that hard.
 

NatureCriminal7896

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Poor MJJC.
Even Moderators are hater apologists.

I don't think moderators are agreeing with anyone. i just think they want everything run smoothly. i believe the moderators also agree Michael is innocent as well.
 

Gaz

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Re: Asking ourselves tough questions. [Staff Reminder: Be Respectful!]

[/B]

That's what i am starting to believe , because there is no way an authentic fan with a forum dedicated to praise , love and respect could allow that shit . In this case GAZ should tell us his true feelings so that we fans can take our reponsibility if we still consider this place as a MJforum or not and decide to leave or not for another forum ruled by someone who still completly believe in his innocence . The administrator opinion is what set the general tone and primordial for our choice .

Ok, firstly a warning you might be offended by what I'm about to say and tbh with that kind of comment I really could not give two shits if you are...anyway, what an absolutely idiotic thing to say, first I don't read the forum much these days so had no clue this was being suggested or said by a member, second how f*cking dare you question my loyalty to Mike...I have stood by and created this fan club and forum from the ground up for almost two decades, designing developing and 'PAYING' for it to be online, my actions are what speaks to what I think about all this recent bollocks not what one of its members does and say's, surely you have enough brain power to work that one out for yourself. :doh:

Note: This comment is also directed at Annie Are You Ok and 1nn5...
 

Laurendaccio

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Re: Asking ourselves tough questions. [Staff Reminder: Be Respectful!]

Ok, firstly a warning you might be offended by what I'm about to say and tbh with that kind of comment I really could not give two shits if you are...anyway, what an absolutely idiotic thing to say, first I don't read the forum much these days so had no clue this was being suggested or said by a member, second how f*cking dare you question my loyalty to Mike...I have stood by this fan club and forum for almost two decades, designing developing and 'PAYING' for it to be online, my actions are what speaks to what I think about all this recent bollocks not what one of its members does and say's, surely you have enough brain power to work that one out for yourself. :doh:

Note: This comment is also directed at Annie Are You Ok...


Thennnn ..Why are the moderators acting like this thread was created beyond their power from someone above ? If you didnt know about this thread then ok , sorry to have doubted your loyalty , but do you understand our feelings and why most of us think it's not OK to have a thread like that in a place dedicated to LOVE ,PRAISE AND RESPECT for this man ? I think believing in his total innocence should be a BASIC tacit rule . I am not saying people can't have doubts and express them to try to get clarifications from other fans , i am saying when even explanations and clarifications dont convince anymore of his innocence and that in your path to find the truth ( your truth ) you now totally believe he is guilty , then there is no way this place can still fit you anymore EVEN if you still love him as an ARTIST . Loving and respecting the MAN should be required too ( At least in the field of the allegations , not that you must love everything about his personality , that's not what i mean ) .
 

WannaScream

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If wanting this place to be a place of love , praise and respect for the artist that it is focused on means to be a bully then we dont have the same definition nor vision of this word . For me just the fact of having a thread dedicated to people who believe he is a pedophile is already a huge step towards chaos and i think when posters who are involved in a place see something is leading to the wrong direction then it's perfectly legitimate to protest and ask for anwers , as i already said it's completly delusional to think that a thread like that wouldnt create any strong feelings and hostility towards the posters , it does and it's perfectly logical .

I do see where you are coming from. However, this isn't a thread dedicated to people believing he is a paedophile and there only seems to be one member saying that out of many posting here. Yet just the other night we had someone saying completely vile things towards another member who clearly stated they weren't saying MJ was guilty. To me that isn't a protest, that's bullying. It's always possible to speak to the site owner to complain because otherwise this thread just gets even more uncomfortable than it already is.
 

1nn5

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I do see where you are coming from. However, this isn't a thread dedicated to people believing he is a paedophile and there only seems to be one member saying that out of many posting here. Yet just the other night we had someone saying completely vile things towards another member who clearly stated they weren't saying MJ was guilty. To me that isn't a protest, that's bullying. It's always possible to speak to the site owner to complain because otherwise this thread just gets even more uncomfortable than it already is.

Have you read the posts of this thread two month ago ?
Have you seen posts before moderators deleted them ?
It's OK in this community to share links of an article shared by Dan Reed and admire the content of this article ?
Have you seen the posts that were deleted of this member ?
5 years in this community I haven't attacked any member, of course haters are an exception.
 
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maral

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I have read most of the post here and I can’t keep quite anymore. I have been in a fan community for 20 years (not MJ:s though). I have been a MJ fan since 2009…. So I’m mature enough to know nothing is black and white. For me it’s unfair to say that just because you’re a fan of an artist you have to believe them 100%... this is absorbed. I can say I believe MJ is innocent but at the end of the day I can’t be sure. Fans should be allowed to say “I don’t know”. There are somethings about MJ that is odd and can’t be excused no matter how much we may love him…
Same goes the other way. Just because someone makes an accusation doesn’t mean we can’t question them.
Some fans may also believe he’s guilty and see it as an illness. Not all pedophiles do it out of evilness. Don’t get me wrong.. I’m not saying the act itself isn’t disgusting, just that the person who does it might simply have a deaper more complex mental problem….. Fans who appreciate his art should be allowed to talk and debate about these things. The what ifs….

But if you truly believe MJ systematically planed it by luring children and there families. If you believe he was this monster who KNEW exactly WHAT he was doing, then we’re beyond doubt. Then I don’t se why one would want come to an MJ forum..
 
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