Changing Skin Colour

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

I agree that people have been respectful.
However the reason we never discussed this, was because it was Michael's request. If memory serves correctly there were (are?) forum rules pertaining to what we can and cannot discuss and I believe Michael's medical history was off limits. I don't see how that is different now that he is no longer alive. He still deserves for us to respect his wishes and frankly, "he suffered from vitiligo" is all anyone needs to know.

You're right, of course.

These days, it seems, 'anything goes' on here.

I also don't see how 'fans' blaming Michael for the tabloid attitude to his skin changing is "respectful".

To try out this theory, take some of the statements on here and imagine people saying them to Michael's face, or to his children's face. Would they find them "respectful"? Not a chance in hell.

People ask why Thriller 3D tickets weren't offered to this site. Perhaps The Estate looked at some of the, downright insulting, topics on here and were horrified at who might turn up?

Respect for MJ? It's in very short supply on here of late. Sadder still, is the fact its accepted so readily.

Why am I still here? There are a few absolute gems on here in terms of posters and topics, and I support those, valiantly trying not to drown in a sea of filth.

All for the L.O.V.E., of course.

 

[Tess66]

Re: Changing skin colour

^^^ While I respect your feelings, overall I think this thread has been pretty respectful (yes, there were a few comments that made me cringe a bit).

Nobody is questioning that Michael had Vitiligo, the tone seems to be whether or not coming forward about it sooner in his career would have helped to quelch the nasty "skin bleaching/MJ wants to be white" tabloid junk.

I think it's something a lot of fans are curious about. I'll be quite frank, if I could face Michael and ask him why, I would. I'm not ashamed of wanting to know his thinking on the subject. I'm not trying to invade his privacy, as his Vitiligo was publicly announced by Michael himself. I'd be certain to tell him that his fans wouldn't care if he were pink with purple polka dots as well, we'd love him no matter!

Again, I completely respect where you're coming from but as far as disrespectful, there are way more cringe worthy comments in other threads than this one. Overall, I really think people have been very tame here considering the touchy subject.

Should it even be a matter for discussion? I don't know, but there is also a whole thread dedicated to Michael's manhood, (people actually drawing on pictures to highlight the subject, come on!!!), which I find more disrespectful than this thread.

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter as to the why's, and it was Michael's personal business, but it's definitely something many fans will always wonder about.

JMHO

 

[StaceyMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

You're right, of course.

These days, it seems, 'anything goes' on here.

I also don't see how 'fans' blaming Michael for the tabloid attitude to his skin changing is "respectful".

To try out this theory, take some of the statements on here and imagine people saying them to Michael's face, or to his children's face. Would they find them "respectful"? Not a chance in hell.

People ask why Thriller 3D tickets weren't offered to this site. Perhaps The Estate looked at some of the, downright insulting, topics on here and were horrified at who might turn up?

Respect for MJ? It's in very short supply on here of late. Sadder still, is the fact its accepted so readily.

Why am I still here? There are a few absolute gems on here in terms of posters and topics, and I support those, valiantly trying not to drown in a sea of filth.

All for the L.O.V.E., of course.

Hi. Reading your post made me feel a pang of sadness! I agree with a lot of what you said.

I'm moving this thread to the trials and tribulations part of the forum so it sits with the more 'contraversial' MJ topics. I don't feel it has a place in the MJ News and Discussion forum.

I'd like to just point out that in being part of the running of this forum there's not a moment that respect for Michael isn't at the forefront of my mind. However, in terms of moderation a lot of that falls on myself only and when Gaz is here lot of his time is taken up with technical things, so not everything gets seen I'm afraid. The report button is always there so if you feel something is inappropriate then I would ask you just flag it, the reports are the first place I go when I log in and will take action accordingly. Thanks, and I hope you stick around!

 

[PoP]

Re: Changing skin colour

Don't forget about Winnie Harlow, she too have vitiligo which I found you've mention a few years prior, she was made fun of too, but I believe she knows what Michael has gone thru and knowing she's not the only one suffering vitiligo. But I don't understand why she's loved when she has it, but Michael gets the butt rap about his condition? Those who suffers vitiligo knew how Michael felt and yet I believe they're inspired by him.

 

[Dutchie]

Re: Changing skin colour

You're right, of course.

These days, it seems, 'anything goes' on here.

I also don't see how 'fans' blaming Michael for the tabloid attitude to his skin changing is "respectful".

To try out this theory, take some of the statements on here and imagine people saying them to Michael's face, or to his children's face. Would they find them "respectful"? Not a chance in hell.

People ask why Thriller 3D tickets weren't offered to this site. Perhaps The Estate looked at some of the, downright insulting, topics on here and were horrified at who might turn up?

Respect for MJ? It's in very short supply on here of late. Sadder still, is the fact its accepted so readily.

Why am I still here? There are a few absolute gems on here in terms of posters and topics, and I support those, valiantly trying not to drown in a sea of filth.

All for the L.O.V.E., of course.

I understand what you're saying but I think we have to agree to disagree. I believe all comments made here were done with good intentions and I do believe people have don't intend to be disrespectful towards Michael or towards others. In the end we are all here because we love Michael and perhaps some are simply too young to understand the impact of some of the things Michael went through including his struggle with Vitiligo.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Changing skin colour

I will have to admit that I did not read every post in this thread but I personally did not see anything that was (what I would consider) disrespectful.. I get that we all have a soft spot for the trials Michael dealt with and can be touchy subjects. BUT if there is anywhere we should be able to feel comfortable to have an open conversation about contraversal subjects it should be in a Michael Jackson forum. One like MJJC that has great respect for the man.

Until we can have these conversations openly in public without hearing "You know he did it.." / "Dude, he wanted to be white".. etc. There has to be a place to speak about things openly. It' not like there is anything horribly bad to say..

We have threads asking IF Michael had any faults.. are we really needing to sugar coat things to the point thats a question? OH and how about honestly answering that question without shading a 'fault' with a positive spin.. We talk about Michael like we're in a job inteview. "What are your greatest weaknesses?".... "I work too hard"...

Michael was a man that anguished a lot in his life, but we are too often afraid to look at the wounds and discuss why they excist..

We are here for the LOVE of the man,believe me that I mean that.. I speak here more than to most of my family. I genuinly love Michael, I simply think we can have the maturity level to have conversations that everyone else does.. AT LEAST we (while maybe not on the same page) are reading off the same book out of love.

 

[Tess66]

Re: Changing skin colour

^^^. Very well said!
With The L.O.V.E.!!

 

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

If you guys think it's OK to talk about the size of his manhood, his vitiligo - and how it's his fault the media hounded him for it (YES there are many posts intimating this), list his faults with glee, then go ahead if that's what makes you happy.

But, don't pretend you would do this to in front of Michael or his children.

'Fans' -"Hey Michael. Come join us. We're just discussing your many faults and mistakes. You have loads, don't you?"

Michael - "But what about my good traits, and the way I've tried to live my life for good?"

'Fans' - "That's old hat. This is much more fun."


Or, "Hey Paris. We're just discussing your Father's vitiligo, and how it's his fault that the media attacked him for it. Why didn't he strip off for them live on TV, years ago, to prove he had a skin condition? It would have made my life, as a 'fan', so much easier."

Paris - "WTF!!"


Let's be clear here. I don't sit around with groups of people listing and discussing the failures and faults of the people I love. I concentrate on the positives they bring to my life, and to the lives of others.

If we all did that, instead of the opposite, the world would be a better place.

I'm not stopping people from getting their kicks discussing the negatives in other people, I'm not in a position to, but I object to it being described as something 'positive' or 'healthy'. It isn't.

 

[Tess66]

Re: Changing skin colour

If you guys this it's OK to talk about the size of his manhood, his vitiligo - and how it's his fault the media hounded him for it (YES there are many posts intimating this), list his faults with glee, then go ahead if that's what makes you happy.

But, don't pretend you would do this to in front of Michael or his children.

'Fans' -"Hey Michael. Come join us. We're just discussing your many faults and mistakes. You have loads, don't you?"

Michael - "But what about my good traits, and the way I've tried to live my life for good?"

'Fans' - "That's old hat. This is much more fun."


Or, "Hey Paris. We're just discussing your Father's vitiligo, and how it's his fault that the media attacked him for it. Why didn't he strip off for them live on TV, years ago, to prove he had a skin condition? It would have made my life, as a 'fan', so much easier."

Paris - "WTF!!"


Let's be clear here. I don't sit around with groups of people listing and discussing the failures and faults of the people I love. I concentrate on the positives they bring to my life, and to the lives of others.

If we all did that, instead of the opposite, the world would be a better place.

I'm not stopping people from getting their kicks discussing the negatives in other people, I'm not in a position to, but I object to it being described as something 'positive' or 'healthy'. It isn't.

Okay, now you got me, and I absolutely see your point. (Slinking off to a corner, bad MJ fan, bad).

 

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

I'm honestly not trying to make anyone feel bad.

I'm trying to say we sometimes need this check ourselves, and how we criticise others. Michael's not here, but his family and children are. It must hurt them to read a lot of nonsense printed about Michael. Do we really want to add to that?

Have we run out of positive things to say about an artist or achieved so much, gave so much, and left us so much? I don't think we have. But, for those that have, perhaps the saying; "if you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything." could be apt. It certainly beats listing someone's faults.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Changing skin colour

Smooth MJ, for me personally most of what I would say here I would say to Michael.. I would be more cognitive of HOW I say it because I know I would have to earn trust while expressing what I think/feel.

It would not be "Hey Paris. We're just discussing your Father's vitiligo, and how it's his fault that the media attacked him for it. Why didn't he strip off for them live on TV, years ago, to prove he had a skin condition? It would have made my life, as a 'fan', so much easier."

It would be more like "Paris, would you happen to know why your dad decided not to talk bout Vitiligo? was it that simply that it was nobodies business?" ..... "What if he did explain it at the time, do you think it could have ___Fill in the blank___."

That said, I could never be a kiss @$$ to Michael because I care for him in a way that I'd rather have him upset at me than see me as a fake.. Same fakes that the way I see it aided in his death.



I would tell Michael things I think would help, IF I were in the position to actually speak to him and he would LISTEN.. truly hear me out, hell yes I would say what I say here.

 

[Dutchie]

Re: Changing skin colour

If you guys think it's OK to talk about the size of his manhood, his vitiligo - and how it's his fault the media hounded him for it (YES there are many posts intimating this), list his faults with glee, then go ahead if that's what makes you happy.

But, don't pretend you would do this to in front of Michael or his children.

'Fans' -"Hey Michael. Come join us. We're just discussing your many faults and mistakes. You have loads, don't you?"

Michael - "But what about my good traits, and the way I've tried to live my life for good?"

'Fans' - "That's old hat. This is much more fun."


Or, "Hey Paris. We're just discussing your Father's vitiligo, and how it's his fault that the media attacked him for it. Why didn't he strip off for them live on TV, years ago, to prove he had a skin condition? It would have made my life, as a 'fan', so much easier."

Paris - "WTF!!"


Let's be clear here. I don't sit around with groups of people listing and discussing the failures and faults of the people I love. I concentrate on the positives they bring to my life, and to the lives of others.

If we all did that, instead of the opposite, the world would be a better place.

I'm not stopping people from getting their kicks discussing the negatives in other people, I'm not in a position to, but I object to it being described as something 'positive' or 'healthy'. It isn't.

I'm not sure if your post was directed at me per say?
Let me just clarify that I agree with your standpoint, but we simply don't agree on the way some of the posts in this thread are intended.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

Smooth MJ, for me personally most of what I would say here I would say to Michael.. I would be more cognitive of HOW I say it because I know I would have to earn trust while expressing what I think/feel.

It would not be "Hey Paris. We're just discussing your Father's vitiligo, and how it's his fault that the media attacked him for it. Why didn't he strip off for them live on TV, years ago, to prove he had a skin condition? It would have made my life, as a 'fan', so much easier."

It would be more like "Paris, would you happen to know why your dad decided not to talk bout Vitiligo? was it that simply that it was nobodies business?" ..... "What if he did explain it at the time, do you think it could have ___Fill in the blank___."

That said, I could never be a kiss @$$ to Michael because I care for him in a way that I'd rather have him upset at me than see me as a fake.. Same fakes that the way I see it aided in his death.



I would tell Michael things I think would help, IF I were in the position to actually speak to him and he would LISTEN.. truly hear me out, hell yes I would say what I say here.

You seem this be mixing up 'having respect' with 'kissing ass'.

Maybe you think it's your 'right' to know every detail about someone else's private life, and your 'right' to discuss their faults and failings. I prefer to concentrate on the positive aspects of people I care about.

It takes all kinds, to make the world go round, I suppose.

 

[SmoothMJ]

Re: Changing skin colour

I'm not sure if your post was directed at me per say?
Let me just clarify that I agree with your standpoint, but we simply don't agree on the way some of the posts in this thread are intended.

I hope that makes sense.

It wasn't directed at you, no.

And, yes, your comments do make sense.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Changing skin colour

You seem this be mixing up 'having respect' with 'kissing ass'.

Maybe you think it's your 'right' to know every detail about someone else's private life, and your 'right' to discuss their faults and failings. I prefer to concentrate on the positive aspects of people I care about.

It takes all kinds, to make the world go round, I suppose.

SmoothMJ - It seems you may have taken offense to the "kiss @$$" comment, I want to make it clear in no way was I making that statement saying that is what you are.

I am not here to say how much we are supposed to know or not know about Michael. To be honest I think many members here are past the point of knowledge of what many outside an MJ forum would find 'normal' or 'appropriate'. We read court transcripts, a thread dedicated to Michaels 'manhood', can spit out various facts about his life that he would prefer us not to have ever known..

I honestly think some of that is more 'disrespectful' to Michael than talking about a disease he publicly stated he had, and our thoughts on ways he could have approached it in the public differently.. How is that an invasive conversation? Mind you Michael has also stated if he thought of what woman were thinking of him (sexually) while on stage - he could not do it. (speaking about women looking paying attention to his crotch).. reminder *We have a thread JUST for that!

in the end of the day smooth, don't think I'm calling you a kiss ass, there is simply a lot of that that goes down in general.

 

[Dutchie]

Re: Changing skin colour

I honestly think some of that is more 'disrespectful' to Michael than talking about a disease he publicly stated he had

Let's clarify: he publicly stated it NOT because he wanted to but because he felt he had no choice but to address it.

Here is the transcript of the Oprah interview where he talks about his skin disorder and let's her know he doesn't understand why people want to know these things:

Oprah : Okay, then let's go to the thing that is most discussed about you, that is the color of your skin is most obviously different than when you were younger, and so I think it has caused a great deal of speculation and controversy as to what you have done or are doing, are you bleaching your skin and is your skin lighter because you don't like being black?

Michael : Number one, as I know of, there is no such thing as skin bleaching, I have never seen it, I don't know what it is.

Oprah : Well they used to have those products, I remember growing up always hearing always use bleach and glow, but you have to have about 300,000 gallons.

Michael : Okay, but number one, this is the situation. I have a skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin, it's something that I cannot help. Okay. But when people make up stories that I don't want to be who I am it hurts me.

Oprah : So it is...

Michael : It's a problem for me that I can't control, but what about all the millions of people who sits out in the sun, to become darker, to become other than what they are, no one says nothing about that.

Oprah : So when did this start, when did your ... when did the color of your skin start to change?

Michael : Oh boy, I don't ... sometime after Thriller, around Off the Wall, Thriller, around sometime then.

Oprah : But what did you think?

Michael : It's in my family, my father said it's on his side. I can't control it, I don't understand, I mean, it makes me very sad. I don't want to go into my medical history because that is private, but that's the situation here.

Oprah : So okay, I just want to get this straight, you are not taking anything to change the color of your skin ...

Michael : Oh, God no, we tried to control it and using make-up evens it out because it makes blotches on my skin, I have to even out my skin. But you know what's funny, why is that so important? That's not important to me. I'm a great fan of art, I love Michelangelo, if I had the chance to talk to him or read about him I would want to know what inspired him to become who he is, the anatomy of his craftsmanship, not about who he went out with last night ... what' wrong with ... I mean that's what is important to me.

There you go. This should be enough for fans to realize Michael did not want us to speculate about these things.

Why can't we focus on his amazing legacy that he left behind for us all to enjoy? Let's stop pretending it's okay to discuss Michael's private medical issues.

I would understand if a young fan would ask 'Why did his skin color change' and someone would explain that he has Vitiligo but that's where it should stop, IMO.

 

[terrell]

Re: Changing skin colour

Let's clarify: he publicly stated it NOT because he wanted to but because he felt he had no choice but to address it.

Here is the transcript of the Oprah interview where he talks about his skin disorder and let's her know he doesn't understand why people want to know these things:



There you go. This should be enough for fans to realize Michael did not want us to speculate about these things.

Why can't we focus on his amazing legacy that he left behind for us all to enjoy? Let's stop pretending it's okay to discuss Michael's private medical issues.

I would understand if a young fan would ask 'Why did his skin color change' and someone would explain that he has Vitiligo but that's where it should stop, IMO.

I agree
MJ' death report confirms his skin condition.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Changing skin colour

Dutchie - no one is arguing if he wanted/did not want to discuss Vitiligo. We are simply discussing if it would have mattered when he discussed it, and some (including myself) believe that it would have had benefits making it public before hand.

Why some other fans think this is an off limit conversation to have I find interesting considering the other topics (which I've mentioned) that are OK to talk about.

If I or other fans have an opinion that it would have benefited Michael in ways to have brought it to the public before 1993 it is a perfectly normal conversation to have. I do believe that Michael stating he had vitiligo in 1993 - same year the allegations went out only made things beyond difficult to handle for one person.

We think these things out of caring, not out of disrespect.. People were wondering and some were hating on Michael because of his skin changing - and discussing it years after people were wondering what was going on and only months before the allegations became public could not help..

No one needs to explain why he did not discuss it, or how hard it would be, or the simple fact it would be difficult.. We get that, and not disagreeing! We are simply stating that IF he would have discussed it earlier, he may have been perceived different and people could have been more understanding.. and more understanding with other things outside of the 'skin' conversation. Transparency sometimes helps - people don't have to come up with there own conclusions.. and with Michael people naturally would assume something over the top.



The fact people are offended by this makes me wonder what would they not be offended when discussing decisions Michael made and IF he made a different decision? Would I get yelled at for saying he should have rescheduled the '95 HBO special ? OR how about performing in the US for the History tour? or.. IDK anything!

I feel sometimes whatever is said will get preached about.. Yes we get while he did not perform in the US, yes we get why discussing vitiligo is not a conversation that is enjoyable to have.. But to discuss if he made different decisions how it would have effected things are normal conversations.

 

[Tess66]

Re: Changing skin colour

I would just like to say it's nice to see discussion/debate about a sensitive topic between members staying civil and respectful. Agreeing to disagree, voicing opinions on various lines of thought, without anyone getting rude or "butt hurt" is wonderful.

 

[Dutchie]

Re: Changing skin colour

I would just like to say it's nice to see discussion/debate about a sensitive topic between members staying civil and respectful. Agreeing to disagree, voicing opinions on various lines of thought, without anyone getting rude or "butt hurt" is wonderful.

I agree!
We are all adults and Michael taught us above all else to unite. We all love him and want the best for him/his legacy but we simply can't agree on everything as we are all different. Different standpoints, Different cultures and different opinions. But it's all good as long as we can be respectful and accept when we simply can't see eye to eye.