Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

elusive moonwalker

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I've read the last few pages here especially Lightbringers comments. From what I gather here. It is possible that those two are actually speaking the truth... We have zero ammunition to fire back so it could be true.
I've said this before but if others come forward now, there is no going back. The key is in what other guys who spend weeks and months with MJ do now. If something happened there is no more reason to stay silent. So if they stay silent...nothing happened... I think.

Have you even read the court documents and depositions or actually have a clue about this case. Because i suggest you educate yourself on the facts first. There are dozens of facts to fire back as amunition.

Sorry but its the same posters spreading their negativity. I suggest there should be a seperate thread. Seen this before.
 

La74

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Blondie;4245159 said:
Gonna have to take a break from comments and social media etc for a bit but has anyone noticed this same old contradiction:

Michael: " was a master groomer, he had too much power and was very masterful at what he did. Incredible lengths and procedures to keep abuse quiet"

Also Michael: " Admits openly to having children sleep in his room on tv, makes himself an obvious target, invites his alleged rape victims to the witness stand to defend him"

:troll2:
Exactly. I have been thinking that he could have had some kind of high functioning autism and he just didn’t understand what it looked like.
 

Andymachine

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I am not sure but I just remember this sort of narrative being used by Jordan and his father or step father or whatever it is, apparently they "knew" MJ and Jordan were having an "affair" and that it did happen but tried to make money out of it regardless.
 

ILoveHIStory

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On this thread there was a picture showing that the books of nude boys are part of the Library of the Congress, can anybody re-post that pic, or twitter link???
 

Lightbringer

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I am not sure but I just remember this sort of narrative being used by Jordan and his father or step father or whatever it is, apparently they "knew" MJ and Jordan were having an "affair" and that it did happen but tried to make money out of it regardless.

Jordan claiming MJ abused him, is not the same thing as they were having a full blow "loving relationship" as Wade & Safechuck claims. The problem is the grand jury 1994 procedings never leaked, did they?
 

terrell

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La74;4245158 said:
People want more indept is really good because then maybe they start investigate the whole story from the beginning. Like I said before Josephine Zohny who knew Jordan from university is ready to come forward if a legal counsel or the family contact her. Brett Barnes is threathening to sue and maybe others will as well. We wil have to wait and see what happens. There will ofcourse be people who goes ”he was accused” and then are just not interested in the circumstances but let us not focus on them. As for Jordan I can kind of image the situation and all the publicity it would bring.Brett Barnes has been haressed for weeks.
Life is funny and Jordan can be tired of this as well. U can believe he is getting calls from people. I look at the comment the guy gave who tried to talk to Jordan but he dismissed him. Now, that tells me something. I wont be surprise if Jordan finally cracks to clear up this lie. It has happen in other situation. This trash has to stop.
 

elusive moonwalker

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Exactly. However I do not believe this did happen with MJ but it is exactly what was "meant to have gone on with Jordan Chandler" . The Arvizo thing was totally bogus. You can instantly discount that. It's made to look like a love story and people of all ages can fall in love however the adult has to act like a human being and be responsible. Which hopefully in most cases people are.

Its copies from guiterrez book thats why. Explain to me how an adult does not know what sexual abuse is. Unless hes mentally disabled. So hes in love with mj upto 2011 until he doesnt get the job but says hes not gay. But doesnt realise what child abuse is even though he was grilled by zonen on the stand. so how many times has he raped his own son seeing as he thought it was a normal loving thing to do. He hasnt been living under a rock all his life. .this is pathetic. ? why am i even arguing the point. Only in amerikkk.

Where are the days of phatfan, plexi, bnsilly, obichena ivy and all the numerous others. We were that good even sneddon tried to get the board shut down. Now it looks like wades fanclub.
 

La74

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Exactly. However I do not believe this did happen with MJ but it is exactly what was "meant to have gone on with Jordan Chandler" . The Arvizo thing was totally bogus. You can instantly discount that. It's made to look like a love story and people of all ages can fall in love however the adult has to act like a human being and be responsible. Which hopefully in most cases people are.
Again with Jordan I just imagine his situation. His own father working together with Victor for a book like that. He has friends who are clearly MJ positive like his ex girlfriend Sonnet Simmons best friend Laurie somethingwrote a positive article just the day after he died. His sitter like a video with MJ on youtube. Josephine Zohny sure is on our side. He emasipated his parents, refused to testify for the procecution etc lots of signs he does not stand behind this himself but is afraid to speak up.

https://turningthetableonthechandlerallegations.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/chandler-timeline/
 
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terrell

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Also, I am at work today so I can not talk to certain sites but if anyone can facebook
https://www.facebook.com/rickandsasha
they want to know if any money will be given to these guys to do this. They love MJ and they want more info.
 

La74

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Life is funny and Jordan can be tired of this as well. U can believe he is getting calls from people. I look at the comment the guy gave who tried to talk to Jordan but he dismissed him. Now, that tells me something. I wont be surprise if Jordan finally cracks to clear up this lie. It has happen in other situation. This trash has to stop.

Who was that guy who tried to talk to him?
 

L.T.D

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Never thought my first time seeing the Stevie Wonder footage from Bad Tour Brisbane would be like this, what a waste.
 

~*WhiteChocolate*~

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OMG someone’s f**king said it! I was on MJJC & MJJForum before and during ‘03-‘05 and it was a safe haven for me. People were logical and we all discussed the facts and supported each other, etc. I remember telling my mother that I had ZERO doubt that he’d be found not guilty and low and behold he was, it was because of how resourceful this site was. And yes I remember the media visiting the board, and even that a**hole sneddon on tried shutting us down.

I’ve tried coming back this board over the last couple of years and every time I’ve had to walk away, because the amount of negative BS that is being spewed here and now all these “doomsday” posts that have me rolling my eyes...This is NOT the same place I once loved. There seem to be a lot of fairwheather fans too.

Anyone with half a functioning brain cell can see what this so-called documentary is, and for those who can’t well they’re just morons.

I’m glad to see an “old face” with your posts Elusive.
 

Kingofpop4ever3000

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I knew this was going to be the absolute worst from the very first day that this film was announced. I tried to tell myself everything would be alright and when this was over there would be just minimal damage because people would somehow see this trash for the steaming pile of crap it is. But in my heart, I knew better than to think that. Now look at this mess. And those who care for Michael are being attacked and laughed at.


There needs to be a giant avalanche of evidence proving Michael’s innocence once and for all. That’s the only way to save his legacy at this point. After everything Michael and his supporters went through during his life and his supporters now after his death, it can’t end like this.
 
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wednesday

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Its not perceived as ABUSE for the child, if its consensual sex. If you are being violent or doing stuff they get discomfort/disgust from then they would obviously not enjoy it. But thats not what the story is in this case.

Well, you do not seem to understand that is possible for a 10-14 year old to enjoy sexual acts with an adult. Why would it not be possible? Its consensual sexual acts either way. If lets say 12 year old boy is in love with an adult and they get a blowjob, they are getting the same sexual sensations as if they were to get a blowjob from a 12 year old girl. The sexual aspects of it is very easy to understand. MJ were not physically harming them according to their stories, they made love to each other.

Whats maybe a bit harder to sell is that the kid would be in love with adult, but as the child sex expert is going to say, its not unseen of or insanely rare. Its not like they are claiming something that have never been heard of before.

I am not saying Michael did any of this, since Safechuck is copying Gutierrez lies and I know all the facts - but the public does not know that. I just want to be realistic about what the claims are and how the general person will think of it. And I am basing this from arguments I have had with people who have seen the film and are convinced MJ had REAL love affairs with the boys

:wtf2: FYI: There is no consensual sex between adults and children. I don't give a shit about their logic.

I don't understand this post at all. I am aware of what they are trying to do. Thank you for trying to enlighten me! However, it is absolutely irrelevant whether a 7 or 10 year old is "enjoying" the alleged physical acts!!! It is a fuc*ing CRIME to have sex with children. PERIOD. I am not a psychologist, so I was not trying to analyse the mental state of little Wade or little Jimmy.

I was talking about the agenda of the film. What is achieved by this narrative of 7 year olds enjoying giving a blo* job to a grown man?????!!!!!

Robson and Safechuck were given a national and international platform to discuss child sexual abuse and this is what they have to share with the world?!!
 

ILoveHIStory

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Michael Jackson Fans Are Tenacious. ‘Leaving Neverland’ Has Them Poised for Battle.
A new documentary detailing allegations of sexual abuse has the pop star’s most activist supporters ready to jump on Twitter and YouTube to defend his name.


<a href="https://ibb.co/gDKw6Pq"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/WcJFsP8/NYT1.png" alt="NYT1" border="0"></a>
In the age of the 21st century fan community, perhaps no group is more emphatic, organized and passionate than Michael Jackson&#8217;s supporters.CreditCreditIllustration by Javier Jaén; photograph by Yvonne Hemsey/Getty Images

By Joe Coscarelli
March 4, 2019

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/arts/music/michael-jackson-leaving-neverland-fans.html

Beyoncé has the BeyHive and Nicki Minaj the Barbz, fan groups who swarm online against anyone who disparages their idols. The Deadheads may have provided a blueprint, though these days they are more likely to bicker among themselves.

But in the age of the 21st-century superfan, perhaps no group is more emphatic, organized and passionate online than the devotees of Michael Jackson, the King of Pop whose legacy includes decades of innuendo and court cases regarding what he did or did not do with young boys.

Across blogs, message boards, podcasts, YouTube videos and especially social media feeds, where a Jackson avatar broadcasts one&#8217;s allegiance, they circulate exhaustive evidence that they view as exonerating for the singer, while shouting down news outlets they consider inaccurate and biased.

Brewing for weeks, their fight kicked into a new gear on Sunday, with the airing of the first half of &#8220;Leaving Neverland,&#8221; an HBO documentary about two men who say Jackson repeatedly sexually abused them as children.

Ads for MJInnocent.com on buses in London and digital billboards in the United States are proclaiming: &#8220;Facts Don&#8217;t Lie. People Do.&#8221; Under the Twitter hashtag #MJFam, dozens of fan accounts have encouraged counterprogramming to the film, instructing followers to stream Jackson&#8217;s music instead of watching. And on Sunday night, fans deluged the #LeavingNeverland hashtag with thousands of tweets, dominating discussion of what they called a &#8220;mockumentary&#8221; and attacking the two men at its center.

Dan Reed, the director of &#8220;Leaving Neverland,&#8221; which concludes on Monday, said that his company had received &#8220;dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens&#8221; of emails from Jackson fans &#8212; &#8220;a deluge of hatred&#8221; beginning within 20 minutes of the film&#8217;s announcement in January. He and the two men in the film, Wade Robson and James Safechuck, said that some fans had taken it even further, with threats of violence.

&#8220;One can only compare them to religious fanatics, really,&#8221; Reed said. &#8220;They&#8217;re the Islamic State of fandom.&#8221;

Jackson&#8217;s supporters don&#8217;t see it that way. Since accusations in 1993 by a boy and his family ended with a $23 million settlement, the fandom&#8217;s party line has been that any allegations amounted to extortion plots by hangers-on hellbent on tarnishing Jackson and exploiting his naïveté.

A specific strain of the Jackson faithful has pored over the granular details of his life and cases, including the 2005 trial in which he was acquitted of charges he molested another boy, in hopes of proving his innocence. Those fans &#8212; including the young and old, from Queensland, Australia to Moscow to Huntsville, Ala. &#8212; view &#8220;Leaving Neverland&#8221; as a manipulative, one-sided hit piece that rehashes old allegations from inconsistent sources.

The film has also turned what was for years a niche obsession for many Jackson fans into a mainstream battle.

&#8220;If you&#8217;ve been a fan for a long time, you&#8217;ve seen this over and over again,&#8221; said Casey Rain, 30, a musician and YouTuber living in Birmingham, England. He called &#8220;Leaving Neverland&#8221; a &#8220;sick attempt at hijacking the Me-Too moment.&#8221;

Many Jackson fans resort to indiscriminate, anonymous hate mail targeting journalists and Jackson&#8217;s accusers. Others like Rain show their devotion in deeper ways, painstakingly constructing videos and epic polemics that weave together court papers and obscure interviews, then sharing and resharing their work across multiple platforms.

&#8220;There&#8217;s nothing about Michael that the fan community doesn&#8217;t know,&#8221; said Rain, whose blog post about &#8220;Leaving Neverland&#8221; became a go-to text even before the documentary aired. &#8220;I really don&#8217;t think that we lack objectivity on him.&#8221; (Rain and others who had not yet seen the film said their information came from a few Jackson fans who attended the Sundance premiere and took &#8220;very, very detailed notes.&#8221;)

Susanne Baur and Elena Ovchinnikova, who co-author the blog Vindicating Michael, said they prefer not to be called Jackson fans at all because fan &#8220;has a too negative connotation of adoration and worship,&#8221; Baur, 60, wrote in an email from southern Germany.

ts case. In a post about &#8220;Leaving Neverland&#8221; that totaled more than 10,000 words, Ovchinnikova, who is 65 and based in Moscow, parsed the changing stories of the two men in the film and concluded that they are liars.

&#8220;The reaction of the M.J. community is absolutely adequate,&#8221; Ovchinnikova said via email. &#8220;It is the reaction of knowledgeable people who have to talk to ignoramuses.&#8221;

Linda-Raven Woods, a 56-year-old from Huntsville, called herself a former &#8220;die-hard metalhead&#8221; whose lingering questions about Jackson&#8217;s guilt after his death had led her to fansites.

Wowed by the depth of their research, Woods realized, &#8220;This is why they defend him so passionately,&#8221; she said. She is now an administrator of @MJJLegion, a Twitter account with more than 80,000 followers that has been busy coaching fans on how to counteract the documentary.

Some of these supporters acknowledge that the elaborate lengths of their writing and reasoning invites comparisons to conspiracy theorists, or as Damien Shields put it, a &#8220;ranting mob.&#8221;

But Shields, the author of a book on Jackson&#8217;s music and a fan for more than two decades, said it is all a matter of perspective: &#8220;We also view the media as a ranting mob in some circumstances.&#8221;

He said that the fans&#8217; support comes from a place of love and passion, comparing those on social media to the Britney Spears fan Chris Crocker, who cried &#8220;Leave Britney alone!&#8221; in an infamous viral video.

&#8220;That&#8217;s Michael Jackson fans on Twitter times a million,&#8221; Shields said.

In the cases of Robson and Safechuck, fans note that both had previously testified that Jackson never abused them, and that they later unsuccessfully sued the singer&#8217;s estate. (Their claims are now under appeal.)

Both men said that it took them years to accept that they were abused and that they had felt pressured to testify on Jackson&#8217;s behalf. Reed, the director, said the film was, by design, &#8220;about how Wade changed his mind and confronted the truth about what happened to him&#8221; &#8212; a &#8220;radical reassessment of what it all meant.&#8221;

In an interview, Robson said that he understood the way many still cling to Jackson&#8217;s &#8220;very particular angelic persona.&#8221; He added, &#8220;That was so palatable for so many people, including myself.&#8221;

Robson and Safechuck said they, too, had faced an onslaught since coming forward, with Robson describing &#8220;thousands of extremely volatile and nasty emails or social media comments.&#8221; They cited the intensity of Jackson&#8217;s defenders a possible reason more people don&#8217;t come forward. &#8220;It&#8217;s an extremely terrifying thing to do,&#8221; Robson said.

As the film&#8217;s television premiere approached, some fans struggled with keeping up the fight for Jackson&#8217;s reputation as they also girded themselves for the increased scrutiny.

While some said they would boycott the film because it does not include outside context or interviews with defenders, others said they would stomach it for the good of the community.

&#8220;I need to know what we&#8217;re up against,&#8221; said Woods of @MJJLegion.

Shields said he couldn&#8217;t help but feel a sense of dread about the coming months: &#8220;This literally could be the end of Michael Jackson if &#8212; big if &#8212; someone in a position of repute doesn&#8217;t decide to tell the other side of the story,&#8221; he said.

In the meantime, it was &#8220;almost like therapy&#8221; for fans to do their part to push back on the claims. &#8220;Even if their part doesn&#8217;t actually make any impact,&#8221; he said, &#8220;at least they tried their best.&#8221;


... oh and the comments... yummy...
 

Lightbringer

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terrell;4245172 said:
Also, I am at work today so I can not talk to certain sites but if anyone can facebook
<cite>https://www.facebook.com/rickandsasha</cite>
they want to know if any money will be given to these guys to do this. They love MJ and they want more info.

I sent them the following message, lets hope they want to do something.



Hello from sweden :)

I just wanted to chip in some info about The Michael Jackson allegations.


Would be great if you could do what no one else has done. Research the accusers motives instead of just taking the accusations as truth:



Things the media and the the makers of Leaving Neverland do not want you to know.

Wade Robson and Safechuck have a multi million dollar civil lawsuit pending against The Michael Jackson estate. (its on appeal after being thrown out)

Wade Robson tried to shop a book deal about the allegations which no one would publish since they did not find him credible. (A person working for one of these companies have said Robson asked for a large amount money for his book)

Add the fact that Wade Robson started his allegations after The MJ estate denied him the directors job for the Michael Jackson cirque du soleil show in Las Vegas. A job court records show Robson was begging for.

Coincidently Robsons career was tanking in 2011 and in court records family members admits Robson was afraid he would not be able to provide for his family.

It was ONLY then he suddenly realized he had been abused by Michael Jackson after praising him in interviews and doing tributes for him 2009 to 2012.

Furthermore Robson has started a not for profit foundation and is soliciting donations. There can be no transparency, as he&#8217;s parked his 501 c3 very cleverly under something called the Hawaii Community Foundation. That way, Robson doesn&#8217;t have to file a form 990. We&#8217;ll never know if the makers of &#8220;Leaving Neverland&#8221; have donated money to it or will share a % of the profit from the film for example. Its hidden. This was done on purpose. Leonardo DiCaprio does the same thing with his Foundation. https://www.hawaiicommunityfoundation.org/robsonfamilyfund

https://www.showbiz411.com/2019/03/...ofit-designed-to-cash-in-on-leaving-neverland

No media has reported on any of this. I find it absurd that Dan Reed say these 2 men have "no financial interest" at all in whats going on when they have millions of dollars at stake in their lawsuit against the MJ estate, and everybody takes his word for it.

At last, Robson has been caught lying multiple times during his litigation against the MJ estate, he hid the fact that he had been shopping a book deal EVEN from his own lawyers. In fact they judge called him out one time and said nobody could believe what he was telling was the truth. He also failed to produce documents when ordered by the court citing lawyer-client privilege. The problem? The documents were communications betweens his mother and him, so the communications were not protected. In the end he had to produce all the documents, which contained several hundreds of emails mostly between Robson and mis mom where he tried to piece together details and information to produce his abuse story. Wade Robson had said earlier in court he had not spoken or communicated with anyone of his allegations, thats why he tried to hide the emails he exchanged with his mother.

As for Safechuck:
In his lawsuit, Safechuck described Michael Jacksons record company MJJ Productions as "a school" and therefore MJJ Productions would be responsible for all "the children within it". This was so laughable that the judge called Safechuck out for it!
But it raises a more alarming factor. If MJJ Productions were indeed a school, they would not only be civically responsible for the ALLEGED molestation, but also CRIMINALLY responsible!
So why did Safechuck not file a CRIMINAL case then? I am sure it had nothing to do with the fact that a criminal case would not get him ANY MONEY!
---
And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If someone cared to dig a little deeper they would see these accusers who are admitted perjurers also have a long list of credibility problems and contradicting their own stories during the years 2013 to 2019.

Its all there in writing, if you look into their civil cases against MJ estate from 2013 to 2017.

But no one seem to be interested in doing even a little research, instead just taking these serial liers claims as truth. When I ask if they have read the court transcripts, they reply "Watch the film, its powerful" the say.

Its incredible sad.

MJs lawyer Tom Mesereaus words: "Just becaue its graphic, does not mean its true"

Do not hesitate to contact me again if you have any questions or want more info.

Thank you!

Detailed info:

https://themichaeljacksonallegations.com/the-wade-robson-allegations/
 

WildStyle

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If this is not thoroughly and unequivocally rebuked, this will be the final word on MJ's relationships with children.
 

MJJ2theMAX

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aqwsz;4245152 said:
I've said this before but if others come forward now, there is no going back. The key is in what other guys who spend weeks and months with MJ do now. If something happened there is no more reason to stay silent. So if they stay silent...nothing happened... I think.

Looking online, the general public is far more intelligent than I gave them credit for

Loads of people are sceptical and seeing this as a potential money grab even despite two weeks of intensive press telling us all that there is no longer any doubt as to MJs guilt. People aren’t buying it

I personally wouldn’t be surprised if more children came forward now. It’s irrelevant to me really. The tabloids will pay thousands for a story- all you need to do is say you were abused and no defamation risk as Mj dead. Unless someone highly credible came forward now (with evidence), I think cash grabbers will be discredited
 

Lightbringer

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:wtf2: FYI: There is no consensual sex between adults and children. I don't give a shit about their logic.

I don't understand this post at all. I am aware of what they are trying to do. Thank you for trying to enlighten me! However, it is absolutely irrelevant whether a 7 or 10 year old is "enjoying" the alleged physical acts!!! It is a fuc*ing CRIME to have sex with children. PERIOD. I am not a psychologist, so I was not trying to analyse the mental state of little Wade or little Jimmy.

I was talking about the agenda of the film. What is achieved by this narrative of 7 year olds enjoying giving a blo* job to a grown man?????!!!!!

Robson and Safechuck were given a national and international platform to discuss child sexual abuse and this is what they have to share with the world?!!

In short, they can get away with all the lying under oath, because they claim they protected Michael by lying. And they did so because they were in love with Michael, had a great sex life wih him and were crazy about him and did not realize that there was anything wrong with the relationship. They then did everything to protect him because they loved him so much. They were traumatized when MJ moven on to Culkin and Jordan Chandler, heartbroken. But they still LOVED Michael and thats why they went on to lie about it all these years. Thats what they are arguing and thats what the media is buying and writing about.

This makes the public accept them as credible because they have explained why they lied under oath and lied about everything during all these years. Thats the key here!
---
By saying the enjoyed the sex, they can sell the story that the love Michael and protected him because of that. If thee sex was a disaster and violent, they would not be credible in saying they were protecting him all these years.

See where I am coming from?
 
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elusive moonwalker

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There needs to be a giant avalanche of evidence proving Michael’s innocence once and for all. That’s the only way to save his legacy at this point. After everything Michael and his supporters went through during his life and his supporters now after his death, it can’t end like this.
---------------

There is a giant avalanche of evidence its just the media refuse to report on it as per say their agenda against mj
 

Carmour260

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Flood the New York Times with actual facts. The comments are anti-MJ, and I’m sick
 

Soundmind

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Jordan claiming MJ abused him, is not the same thing as they were having a full blow "loving relationship" as Wade & Safechuck claims. The problem is the grand jury 1994 procedings never leaked, did they?
That was in the book Michael Jackson was my Lover which was supposedly about mj and jordan
 

Lightbringer

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That was in the book Michael Jackson was my Lover which was supposedly about mj and jordan

Yes, I know that. And we KNOW THAT WAS FALSE because the source for that book was Jordan Chandlers diary, WHICH NEVER EXISTED, since Jordan never kept a diary.

What I was wondering was what the story was when Jordan accused MJ after being drugged, was the story that MJ like took advantage of him in a sinister way? Or was the story that they were "mutual lovers?"

The Gutierrez book came out long after that, did documents leak about Jordan accusations before the settlement?
 
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