Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

terrell

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elusive moonwalker;4319820 said:
Dunno i turned it over as soon as i saw it. Probably just trying to keep promoting it for evèr and ever until the new LN 2 is ready. They are obsessed with him
Megan and Harry has expose them how they treated M/H so they are going back to the old "punching bag' to try to make $$$ but it wont work. UK media are viewed worst than the USA media and more racist.
 

Carmour260

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The "Tina" documentary was on HBO this past weekend, but I'm still boycotting the network because of that nonsense. However from what I'm hearing, I didn't miss much of it... All they talk about was her ex-husband Ike Turner... I want to know more about the music, but bad news always sells (sadly)... I heard only over a million people watched it...
 

rolerprod

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idk where to ask this but do we know anything about gavin arvizo since 05? did he ever say anything about what happened?

EDIT:
soooo when i googled gavin this artical(http://www.dianedimond.com/gavin-arvizos-happy-ending-jackson-abuse-accuser-gets-married-at-24/) poped up i didnt read all of it but this section jumped out at me :

"Gavin is adamant that the passage of time will best tell his story. He says he knows the truth and believes it will be revealed to the doubters of the world when the time is right."

thats the weirdest phrasing ever
 
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elusive moonwalker

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Hes to busy lieing in court protecting his brother when he attacked his girlfriend. And having mjs music played at his wedding?

Its diane dimwit what do you expect.
 

Arckangel

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I'm still reading a sequel to Leaving Neverland is in the works (Dan Reed did confirm it months ago). Heaven forbid! Any way to stop that?
 

Arckangel

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Robbsaber01;4319218 said:
Good to hear. Defamation of the dead should be illegal. That law needs to be changed IMO. I really dont see the point of LN2 if they both lose in court. Just to get more sympathy? Outright ridiculous.

You know much of the mainstream media would give it much acclaim and fanfare like they did Leaving Neverland! They'd never do that for any rebuttal documentary, no matter how well done and professional (maybe only if Jordan or Gavin would testify in Michael's favour or millions were paid). It's been obvious for decades they don't care much for the truth. They may report some truth—even Diane Dimond did when reporting on the teenage Toronto accuser—but they care much more about making salacious tales look true.
 

Glanni

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after LN this video appeared on youtube and was deleted just days later. does anyone know the name of the woman talking here??

 

AdamBa17

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I spent a whole minute listening to her bragging about her credentials then gave up.
 
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Oprah is a horrible snake and I have zero respect for her. Last week I read about John of God, something the media didn't make a big deal of but it should have. It's crystal clear to me why it wasn't a scandal. Oprah made a deal with the MSM to make a hit piece about LN to remove MJ from history once and for all and they would not talk about her involvement with John of God.

Anyone that doesn't know what this is, look it up.
 

mjprince1976

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The garbage was on Youtube, watched bits of it again, its even more garbagy now than then, a lot of panned out shots and desparate Wade and his mother Joy talking s#@t about Michael.

I saw it, for what it was, a desparate cash grab.

Let us all hope and pray this shit is buried once and for all forever. No more rehashed tabloid stories about Art Books, dodgy maids, new boys or any other assclown looking for some $$$$
 

Elton-Cetera

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Wade Robson is not upset because he was molested by Michael Jackson (which he wasn't). He's upset because he didn't become the next Michael Jackson, after all that time he spent imitating him.
 

mjprince1976

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Exactly there is only one Michael Jackson and we were lucky enough to be alive the same time he was.

The fact he could not be the next Michael Jackson was a reason enough for him to make up some bullshit - yet the fact his behaviour did not allay that of a victim of a paedophile nor did MJ practice any of the usual behaviours of paedophiles sealed his fate.

Even the gutter press and Orca's endorsements along with other ass clowns could make shit into sugar.
 

PoP

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Wade Robson is not upset because he was molested by Michael Jackson (which he wasn't). He's upset because he didn't become the next Michael Jackson, after all that time he spent imitating him.

All those crap Robson put up was all just revenge against the Estate for not having him lead the MJ the One Cirque du Soleil show which absolutely inexcusable. PA-Thetic.
 

zinniabooklover

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The garbage was on Youtube, watched bits of it again, its even more garbagy now than then, a lot of panned out shots and desparate Wade and his mother Joy talking s#@t about Michael.

I saw it, for what it was, a desparate cash grab.

Let us all hope and pray this shit is buried once and for all forever. No more rehashed tabloid stories about Art Books, dodgy maids, new boys or any other assclown looking for some $$$$
Amen to that.
 

filmandmusic

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Today I sadly witnessed the fake doc is still lingering in people's minds. As I was watching a tv program where the host presents each year of the 80s to kids (so naturally there is a lot of Michael) he couldn't help but making slight digs at Michael. They showed images of the Pepsi ad with MJ and how Michael got burned to the kids and young teenagers. He concluded the scene with the words that it wouldn't be the last time Michael burned himself followed by an awkward silence. The kids didn't understand what he meant as I could see from their puzzled faces but the tv watching audience know what was implied here...

It's just sad that these things keep happening. He had his trial, he won very convincingly and now a 100% reversal of earlier comments by Robson and Safeschuck has completely flipped the page again. It really is about time the Estate starts working on cleaning up Michael's image again but who will broadcast Michael is innocent documentaries?!? Making the doc is one thing but making sure it gets broadcasted all over the world on big media outlets is a whole other matter. That is the big challenge ahead.
 

Amaya

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Today I sadly witnessed the fake doc is still lingering in people's minds. As I was watching a tv program where the host presents each year of the 80s to kids (so naturally there is a lot of Michael) he couldn't help but making slight digs at Michael. They showed images of the Pepsi ad with MJ and how Michael got burned to the kids and young teenagers. He concluded the scene with the words that it wouldn't be the last time Michael burned himself followed by an awkward silence. The kids didn't understand what he meant as I could see from their puzzled faces but the tv watching audience know what was implied here...

It's just sad that these things keep happening. He had his trial, he won very convincingly and now a 100% reversal of earlier comments by Robson and Safeschuck has completely flipped the page again. It really is about time the Estate starts working on cleaning up Michael's image again but who will broadcast Michael is innocent documentaries?!? Making the doc is one thing but making sure it gets broadcasted all over the world on big media outlets is a whole other matter. That is the big challenge ahead.
I feel so sad for the kids in that show you're describing. They're already being influenced to hate him without questioning anything. This fight is going to go on until the human race dies out.
 

filmandmusic

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I feel so sad for the kids in that show you're describing. They're already being influenced to hate him without questioning anything. This fight is going to go on until the human race dies out.
True, i’m sure off camera they told them he was a child molestor. Some of these kids don’t even know MJ and now they get learned that he was a child molestor, not even alleged but a true child molestor. Sick stuff. They even try to make it a laughing matter, it is 2022 ffs.

I will never forget how the USA laughed with MJ during the 2005 trial, absolutely vile and disgusting acts. The fake lifetime achievement award, Jack Black, the coverage of jail footage where MJ would be taken to if proven guilty, the jokes during interviews, the bets tv presenters had of how many years he was gonna get. etc etc

This was bullying at a level that is truly disturbing. Just imagine being in MJ’s shoes for one day during that time, makes me loose all hope in humanity. I cannot find the words to describe how angry and sad this made me.
Michael always bounced back, so remarkable, so strong. If only I had an ounce of his believe and positivity!
 

zinniabooklover

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True, i’m sure off camera they told them he was a child molestor. Some of these kids don’t even know MJ and now they get learned that he was a child molestor, not even alleged but a true child molestor. Sick stuff. They even try to make it a laughing matter, it is 2022 ffs.

I will never forget how the USA laughed with MJ during the 2005 trial, absolutely vile and disgusting acts. The fake lifetime achievement award, Jack Black, the coverage of jail footage where MJ would be taken to if proven guilty, the jokes during interviews, the bets tv presenters had of how many years he was gonna get. etc etc

This was bullying at a level that is truly disturbing. Just imagine being in MJ’s shoes for one day during that time, makes me loose all hope in humanity. I cannot find the words to describe how angry and sad this made me.
Michael always bounced back, so remarkable, so strong. If only I had an ounce of his believe and positivity!
Agree 100%. Personally, I think Michael was already being bullied by MSM in the 1980's and then it went up massively in the '90's and then exploded in the 2000's and even now everyone just 'merrily' carries on as if it's perfectly normal to behave like this. And when I say 'bullied' I mean ridiculed which I think counts. I mean stuff like the use of the 'J' word (not even talking about 'W J', that's a whole other thing) in a so-called serious album review in a so-called prestigious music publication. I saw a lot of ridicule and contempt directed at Michael in the UK press in the 1980's which always sat so weirdly alongside his massive success and the size of his fanbase. I know for the pop papers it was partly because he was regarded as being hugely uncool but, beyond that, I could never understand it. Don't misunderstand me, I don't mean it was OK for the pop papers to be so dismissive and nasty to Michael, I just mean I could understand what they were doing because they were so full of themselves. Michael did sometimes get good reviews. A 5 star review for Bad from Q magazine, for example (IIRC). But it was the tone. And the vocabulary used. And the frankly childish sniggering directed towards him. Endlessly.

The ridicule, contempt and racism that was dumped on Michael, I will never, never understand it. Yes, yes, I know, African American guy, successful, powerful, blah blah. I know the 'reasons' but I don't understand. It was disgusting, it was cruel and some of it was so bad it borders on being plain evil.

Sorry to come across as feeble but every word of this comment from f&m just makes me want to cry and, I agree, it does make me fear for humanity. Is that hyperbole? I don't think so. It's like Christians being thrown to the lions or bear-baiting. There is a cruel streak in humans that never really seems to go away and Michael ended up on the receiving end of that. I don't know why. He was being globally bullied on a scale I don't think I've ever seen, before or since.

As for this tv programme, not only are they behaving disgracefully towards Michael but they are displaying disgusting behaviour towards those kids and all for cheap 'laughs'. The concept of the rule of law and of justice, that's being thrown under the bus right there. And to socialise kids to accept that kind of thinking is also disgusting. It doesn't matter if the kids don't quite understand what's being said or what's going on, it's the subliminal messages that will lodge in their heads, that's what worries me. If I was the parent of one of those kids I would be furious because now I have to try to dig out those nasty little seeds that this stupid man just planted in my kid's head. What a disgusting little toerag.

And why show the kids the part where Michael gets burned? That is a hugely traumatising image to show to kids. In which alternative universe does that image qualify as being part of 'entertainment'? I'm really struggling to stick to Gaz's language rules right now.

Yesterday I was in a charity shop flipping through a book listing loads of albums from various decades. Not really my kind of thing but was killing time. Three of Michael's albums in there and at least two of the reviews had little digs at him. Small stuff, you could say, but they had no place in any publication but especially not in any mainstream item.

I hate the way this stuff has just got so embedded into everyday culture, at least in the West.

I love Michael more than I will ever be able to explain but, in a way, that's sort of irrelevant. Even if I had zero interest in Michael I would still despise the way he's treated in the media and in the wider culture. It's just every kind of wrong.

Western civilisation? Yeah, right.
 

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Another day another episode on the radio. The DJ played smooth criminal after the song finished he said Michael was a criminal but this was a damn good song. Sigh.

A few months back a DJ got a call from a listener who was disgusted that the radio still played MJ songs. The DJ didn’t have an answer to that angry call. Maybe it is my imagination but ever since that incident it feels like his airplay dropped a bit.

Before 2019 I felt like the not guilty/guilty percentage was about 70/30 and even those 30% who found him guilty thought he had a tough life and that he didn’t really mean bad, hence the (disrespectful) jokes, you could laugh with serious stuff like that because MJ had the “mind of a child”.

Since 2019 I have not once heard a joke because now people actually think he really did it. You cannot joke about a guy who sexually abused children. There is ALWAYS a reference to what he supposedly did in the past when his name gets dropped on tv or radio.
It is as if people are being pulled from both sides. One side can’t forget about Michael’s astonishing music and the other side tells you you cannot like his music anymore. So they have to make a comment every single time to clear their conscience because they enjoyed and played an MJ song. I think the not guilty/guilty ratio changed the other way around to 30/70.

That is a very very bad trend, this shows clearly that a trial doesn’t mean a thing but a by the media widely backed fake documentary does. I think when the die hard fans like us get old and die I think Michael’s music and humanitarian efforts will die with us. The history books of the future will teach the children of tomorrow that MJ was a child molestor first and then a singer…
Michael’s name should be cleared but nothing is happening, where is the defence? Why are the fans not heard? Can millions of people be deluded? Are we crazy? Where are the hundreds of people who’se life changed after Michael donated millions of dollars for their cause. Is the media blocking their good news stories?

Where exactly is Taj’s documentary? Is it dying a slow death? Maybe it is finished but no media outlet is willing to buy and air it? I don’t want his name to go down in history as a criminal, his name should go down as one of the wrongfully accused victims of racism and mass hysteria so that people in the future can learn from past mistakes. Michael is being treated like the Frankenstein monster and that was not a monster but a gentle misunderstood giant.

I’m sick of it.
 

staywild23

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Another day another episode on the radio. The DJ played smooth criminal after the song finished he said Michael was a criminal but this was a damn good song. Sigh.

A few months back a DJ got a call from a listener who was disgusted that the radio still played MJ songs. The DJ didn’t have an answer to that angry call. Maybe it is my imagination but ever since that incident it feels like his airplay dropped a bit.

Before 2019 I felt like the not guilty/guilty percentage was about 70/30 and even those 30% who found him guilty thought he had a tough life and that he didn’t really mean bad, hence the (disrespectful) jokes, you could laugh with serious stuff like that because MJ had the “mind of a child”.

Since 2019 I have not once heard a joke because now people actually think he really did it. You cannot joke about a guy who sexually abused children. There is ALWAYS a reference to what he supposedly did in the past when his name gets dropped on tv or radio.
It is as if people are being pulled from both sides. One side can’t forget about Michael’s astonishing music and the other side tells you you cannot like his music anymore. So they have to make a comment every single time to clear their conscience because they enjoyed and played an MJ song. I think the not guilty/guilty ratio changed the other way around to 30/70.

That is a very very bad trend, this shows clearly that a trial doesn’t mean a thing but a by the media widely backed fake documentary does. I think when the die hard fans like us get old and die I think Michael’s music and humanitarian efforts will die with us. The history books of the future will teach the children of tomorrow that MJ was a child molestor first and then a singer…
Michael’s name should be cleared but nothing is happening, where is the defence? Why are the fans not heard? Can millions of people be deluded? Are we crazy? Where are the hundreds of people who’se life changed after Michael donated millions of dollars for their cause. Is the media blocking their good news stories?

Where exactly is Taj’s documentary? Is it dying a slow death? Maybe it is finished but no media outlet is willing to buy and air it? I don’t want his name to go down in history as a criminal, his name should go down as one of the wrongfully accused victims of racism and mass hysteria so that people in the future can learn from past mistakes. Michael is being treated like the Frankenstein monster and that was not a monster but a gentle misunderstood giant.

I’m sick of it.
Well first I want to say that I’m a newer fan and have no idea how hard it’s been to be a fan through all the hardest times of Michael’s career, or even 2019. I became obsessed in January of this year. So take my opinion on this as you will. I know I don’t know the half of what it’s been like for long time fans.

However, I genuinely do feel hopeful about Michael’s legacy. I’m 33 and I teach college, primarily first year students from ages 17-19. They have brought up Michael so many times this semester and only in very positive ways. He’s huge on TikTok, they tell me (and I’ve confirmed lol). One of my students wrote a paper about his mistreatment by the media and his vitiligo. Another wrote about how he’s her favorite musician. A few days ago they were asked to give examples of powerful art and analyze it and a few chose They Dont Care About Us. In a class discussion about media slandering dead celebrities he came up, with the consistent view being that his legacy should be protected and he doesn’t deserve hate. When we had a pop culture unit discussion differentiating between fads, trends, and icons, he’s the *only* person who came up in every class I taught as a clear icon. This is just a small sample of 45 students across 3 classes, but I think it says something.

Beyond that, I really do believe MJ’s legacy will be restored. The 3 teaser trailers for the documentary series “Trial by Media” look incredible and extremely professional. I’m not sure when it’s coming out but the director Jin Chohan gave an update on Twitter a month or so ago that it’s about 45% completed. Taj hasn’t given a percentage like that but he talked about his process during a live stream in January on YouTube, which helped me understand why it’s taking so long.

I really hope that with a couple positive documentaries, with at least one (hopefully) getting a mainstream release through a streaming service, paired with a biopic, Michael’s popularity will continue to grow and his image will be restored. From what I understand, streaming has massively jumped since 2019. Most of what I see on social media about Michael is very positive, and when it’s not, there’s ton of people defending him. As a new fan, I can’t tell you how much it helped me when I saw so many passionate defenders in the comments. I became a fan unsure of his innocence and struggled with it a lot initially as an SA survivor. But I felt compelled to do my own research because of the extreme positivity among fans.

Idk if any of this means anything lol. Just last night I was crying about Michael and feeling so sorry and sad for him and all his suffering. The unfairness is so palpable. But today o feel hopeful and I can’t explain why. Anyway I hope any part of this helps lift your spirits a bit, if nothing else .
 

filmandmusic

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@staywild23

Also a new moment that irked me today when reading the newspaper. There was an interview with a famous football player being asked random questions. One of the questions was. "Is it still ok to listen to Michael Jacksons after all the things he did to kids". You see what I mean, it is another moment where the events aren't even questioned. He is guilty in people's eyes full stop and that is how things have gone since 2019. This is an incredible damage and I cannot accept this. If this questions was asked before 2019 it would have gone like this. "Do you think Michael is guilty of pedophilia yes or no. That is a huge difference....

Anyway for those who care the football star answered the question and said he doesn't care about that and that he still enjoys his music but he stopped listening to R Kelly he said. He added that was very strange but defended his decision with saying R Kelly was a popstar with a few good tracks, Michael was an icon.

This does not make any sense to me, this means he agrees with the statement that Michael is guilty but because he is an icon he shouldn't be as harshly punished as R Kelly. Very hypocritical. Or he doesn't really believe Michael was guilty because of lack of proof and therefore can still listen to his music. If the latter is the truth then I think he should have defended Michael but he didn't.

To this day I defend MJ, I'm not fighting over it (I'm a lover not a fighter ;) ) but I do make it clear that I don't believe the allegations because they don't make a lot of sense.

Anyway that was today's rant I feel perfectly sane and fine though , don't worry :p
 

zinniabooklover

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@filmandmusic

I think you're making good points. I loved staywild's response and the upbeat optimism of it. That's brilliant. But I understand why you feel disheartened by this sort of stuff. I already said upthread, it's the way it has seeped into the wider culture. Hate it. It's the insidious drip drip of this type of stuff. There will be times when you think, 'when does it ever end, WILL it ever end?'

It's right there in that question to the footballer. Assuming that is an exact quote, there is an assumption in the wording of the question that, of course Michael Jackson *did* things, he just got away with it cos he's a celebrity, yadda yadda. As you say, it's all in the wording. It's sending subliminal messages, like what that tv programme you mentioned was doing to those kids. People *are* influenced by this stuff.

But staywild gave some great examples there so that must count for something. I certainly hope so.
 

staywild23

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@staywild23

Also a new moment that irked me today when reading the newspaper. There was an interview with a famous football player being asked random questions. One of the questions was. "Is it still ok to listen to Michael Jacksons after all the things he did to kids". You see what I mean, it is another moment where the events aren't even questioned. He is guilty in people's eyes full stop and that is how things have gone since 2019. This is an incredible damage and I cannot accept this. If this questions was asked before 2019 it would have gone like this. "Do you think Michael is guilty of pedophilia yes or no. That is a huge difference....

Anyway for those who care the football star answered the question and said he doesn't care about that and that he still enjoys his music but he stopped listening to R Kelly he said. He added that was very strange but defended his decision with saying R Kelly was a popstar with a few good tracks, Michael was an icon.

This does not make any sense to me, this means he agrees with the statement that Michael is guilty but because he is an icon he shouldn't be as harshly punished as R Kelly. Very hypocritical. Or he doesn't really believe Michael was guilty because of lack of proof and therefore can still listen to his music. If the latter is the truth then I think he should have defended Michael but he didn't.

To this day I defend MJ, I'm not fighting over it (I'm a lover not a fighter ;) ) but I do make it clear that I don't believe the allegations because they don't make a lot of sense.

Anyway that was today's rant I feel perfectly sane and fine though , don't worry :p

Well, first, glad you are perfectly sane and fine...always happy to hear it hahah :)

Regarding this whole conversation though, I *completely* understand your frustration. I absolutely hate everything about this. First, why was he even asked to discuss MJ? What is the relevance? Second, why was it asked in this specific way and to whose benefit? Why is Michael brought up so much in this particular context so many years after his death and years after the documentary itself? I agree with you completely. The erasure of doubt in the hivemind of the media at large genuinely infuriates me. There is a huge difference between asking if he's guilty (though, again, relevance?) than asking if it's ok to love his music in spite of his "undeniable" guilt.

Also, can I add how much I *despise* comparisons of MJ to R Kelly? I don't want to get into my feelings about R Kelly, or argue with anyone over that, but safe to say I don't think they are remotely comparable. And not just because of status as popstar vs. icon. But that's another discussion...

What I would personally take away from that discussion is that this athlete probably doesn't think Michael is guilty, but maybe he's not willing to stick his neck out there and say that loudly and proudly. I will also say that prior to becoming an MJ fan this year, I had never even heard of Leaving Neverland. I worked on a doctoral dissertation* studying sexual violence for four years from 2017-2021 and I still never heard of it (granted, I don't study CSA, but still). So I'm not saying it wasn't a hugely seen doc, but I also question if the football player even knew the more recent developments. Part of his logic may have been stemming from MJ's past exoneration. Either way, I think it's positive that he called him an icon and thinks his music is still worthy of discussion, even if he's hypocritical on some level in the process of saying that.

On a related note, not to bring in another (potentially) controversial figure, but the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard case (which I admittedly know next to nothing about) is blowing up the news and trending on every social media platform, at least in the US. From what I can tell, Depp has overwhelming support in his lawsuit to prove that Heard defamed his character with false allegations. Like I said, I don't know enough about this case to even say what I think on either side. But given the massive support Depp is receiving, I can imagine this might ignite additional conversation about other people, such as Michael Jackson, whose careers were pummeled by accusations. I saw a thread on Twitter yesterday about why for the uber wealthy and famous, settling cases should not be seen as admission of guilt. It was in relation to Depp, but some comments brought MJ into the fold. I also saw a TMZ headline comparing how Depp waving out the window to his fans was just like MJ doing the same thing during the 2005 trial. Just...an interesting comparison given the support Depp has right now. Anyway, my point in mentioning this at all is that, for better or worse, I believe American culture at least might be moving away from the impulse to "cancel" without evidence of wrongdoing. And the fact that I see such *consistent* support for MJ online, with so many people speaking out in support of him, makes me believe that in the cultural consciousness he is not going anywhere, even if the media continue to tear him down.

*looks like I just wrote another dissertation just now! :)
 
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