Did MJ lie about the amount of surgery he had?

Michaels Lover

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And the "thinning hair" is a style choice. Black women do that a lot. They call them edges or baby hair. That's not Lupus.
I'm not talking about that...it was because of the lupus. you do get hair thinning from lupus. also the eyebrows, eyelashes and body hair you can lose them completely
 

KOPV

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what thinning hair are we talking about? Michael wore wigs... and never have I noticed his hair looking "thin"
 

prettyyoungthaang

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what thinning hair are we talking about? Michael wore wigs... and never have I noticed his hair looking "thin"

On that note, does anyone know how bald Michael actually was? Was it just the spot that was burned during the commercial or did it get worse?
 

KOPV

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^ At the end he had a receding hairline and was almost bald in 2009.. he never was able to grow hair back where he was burnt... He tattooed his scalp line to hide any showing of balding...
 

Tony R

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Let's not kid ourselves, plastic surgery was the one reason why Michael became a subject of ridicule, why he is less respected than his peers is some circles and why the terrible rumours that followed were easier to be believed.

I believe he did have body dysmorphia, only that would explain his choices for so many changes before he was even 40, and I think he explains that in Moonwalk when he talks about hoe Joe would talk about his nose.

I'm sure many of you will disagree, and for me the man made Dangerous, he could have transformed himself into a snail and I wouldn't care (although not sure how that would affect the moonwalk) but I believe it is the reason he became why many things went wrong.
 

prettyyoungthaang

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Let's not kid ourselves, plastic surgery was the one reason why Michael became a subject of ridicule, why he is less respected than his peers is some circles and why the terrible rumours that followed were easier to be believed.

I believe he did have body dysmorphia, only that would explain his choices for so many changes before he was even 40, and I think he explains that in Moonwalk when he talks about hoe Joe would talk about his nose.

I'm sure many of you will disagree, and for me the man made Dangerous, he could have transformed himself into a snail and I wouldn't care (although not sure how that would affect the moonwalk) but I believe it is the reason he became why many things went wrong.

I agree with what you are saying - if Michaels appearance hadn't changed so drastically, and honestly in the 00's turned 'eccentric', I don't think he would've been seen as so strange by the media - it's sad but people judge by appearance so poor Michael was judged so harshly. This is not to say it was Michaels fault, far from it, he was a victim of money-driven, selfish and ignorant people.
 
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KOPV

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I find it started Michael was always different, he was soft and easily pushed into things... thus finds himself in situations that could make him look out of place.. You take that, with unique clothing style, mysteriousness.. that creates intrigue! a good thing that with what built later turned on him.. Than intentionally speaking softer, bringing wild animals in public.t that finalized a mystique. In mid 80's the first time he goes out in public with a surgical mask.. you know that get’speople thinking “ok what’s going on here?”, later fallows up with more appearancechanges (intentional and non-intentional) Surgeries and vitiligo.. Than various PR stunts to add into thismystery MJ…
Once everyone is wondering what the hell is this guy? Who is he? What is he like? Why is he sodifferent?.... You get 1993 allegationsand BOOM it becomes the “ah-ha” moment for people and THAT’s why it stuck…

“That’s why he is so weird”, “That’s why he’s always aroundkids”, “Why he’s a recluse and mysterious.. he has something to hide”

That I hard to break... So yes while I agree his changing appearance has to do with how he's viewed as strange.. but there are def. a lot of contributions..
 

Ms. BlueGangsta

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Let's not kid ourselves, plastic surgery was the one reason why Michael became a subject of ridicule, why he is less respected than his peers is some circles and why the terrible rumours that followed were easier to be believed.

People are extremely shallow, so I do believe this is about 50 percent true, but not entirely true because all of MJ's physical changes were NOT due to plastic surgery.
Not to mention that some people don't respect MJ as an artist just because HE IS MJ and they want to be edgy.

I believe he did have body dysmorphia

Good thing that opinion isn't the same as fact, and the fact is that none of us know if he had a mental problem of any kind (although I personally don't believe he did).
 
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prettyyoungthaang

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Good thing that opinion isn't the same as fact, and the fact is that none of us know if he had a mental problem of any kind (although I personally don't believe he did).

It's true that we don't know any of it as fact, but I think the speculation does make sense. People who suffer from BDD often fixate on a flaw of theirs - MJ has expressed how his father made him feel extremely self conscious about his nose, and the various surgeries he's had on it could reflect that insecurity. MJ has even been quoted many times to say he didn't like to look in the mirror and was often seen wearing surgical masks. I'm sure most of the women on these forums will agree that he was a very attractive man yet he had however much surgery to change his appearance. I think his dissatisfaction was made very obvious yet, he was one of the 80's sexiest icons - it would make sense to say that MJ did not view himself the way in which the world did.
 
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marialovesmjj

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To answer the questions in the original post the short version is I don't know and I don't care. *shrug emoji*
 

KOPV

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we're not trying to deny that Michael more plastic surgery than he admitted are we? ... Just trying to see how much we're willing to lie to ourselves!
 

HIStoric

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Let's not kid ourselves, plastic surgery was the one reason why Michael became a subject of ridicule, why he is less respected than his peers is some circles and why the terrible rumours that followed were easier to be believed.

Unfortunately it got to the point where people began to focus more on the "eccentricities" rather than his music, and such things overshadowed his art.
 
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Tony R

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People are extremely shallow, so I do believe this is about 50 percent true, but not entirely true because all of MJ's physical changes were NOT due to plastic surgery.
Not to mention that some people don't respect MJ as an artist just because HE IS MJ and they want to be edgy.



Good thing that opinion isn't the same as fact, and the fact is that none of us know if he had a mental problem of any kind (although I personally don't believe he did).

I think these sort of responses really stigmatise mental health issues. You have no problem with surmising what physical issues he may have had and use these as reasons for certain choices (lip syncing, appearance changes etc.), but when it comes to mental health like body dysmorphia you can't even entertain it.

Why not? Why is it terrible to consider this? Why can a man have vitiligo but not a mental issue? Are they so bad?

Like I say, attitudes like that really stigmatise mental health and make it difficult for people to open up and talk about them.
 

LindavG

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I think these sort of responses really stigmatise mental health issues. You have no problem with surmising what physical issues he may have had and use these as reasons for certain choices (lip syncing, appearance changes etc.), but when it comes to mental health like body dysmorphia you can't even entertain it.

Why not? Why is it terrible to consider this? Why can a man have vitiligo but not a mental issue? Are they so bad?

Like I say, attitudes like that really stigmatise mental health and make it difficult for people to open up and talk about them.

The difference is that we know for a fact that Michael had vitiligo and lupus whereas any discussion about his mental health remains speculation. I think it's a bit unfair to Michael to diagnose him with mental illness when he never spoke out about this himself. It's possible that he had BDD but it's also possible that he was just insecure about his appearance (as many of us are) and combined with his perfectionism and artistic vision it made him want to change himself. The fact that he was comfortable posing for photographs and had paintings of himself in his house suggests that he did not loathe his appearance entirely. I have no doubt though that the constant media (and public) mocking of his appearance exacerbated his insecurities greatly.
 

bluemoon7

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Tony R;4156618 said:
I think these sort of responses really stigmatise mental health issues. You have no problem with surmising what physical issues he may have had and use these as reasons for certain choices (lip syncing, appearance changes etc.), but when it comes to mental health like body dysmorphia you can't even entertain it.

Why not? Why is it terrible to consider this? Why can a man have vitiligo but not a mental issue? Are they so bad?

Like I say, attitudes like that really stigmatise mental health and make it difficult for people to open up and talk about them.

I am not an expert on this but: I think the difference between having (serious) problems with your own appearance and therefore changing things and a diagnosed /clinical mental illness like body dysmorphic disorder is: The suffering and complexity of this mental illness is much more severe.

In general: I´d be very very sad to learn that Michael had a mental illness, for the mere fact that the suffering is so destructive and intense.

To give my statement more "credibility": I have been diagnosed with chronic major depression. It is sooo different from "just" being sad, tired and lethargic ...

But the issue of stigma ... that is a whole different story, true ...
 

Tony R

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The difference is that we know for a fact that Michael had vitiligo and lupus whereas any discussion about his mental health remains speculation. I think it's a bit unfair to Michael to diagnose him with mental illness when he never spoke out about this himself. It's possible that he had BDD but it's also possible that he was just insecure about his appearance (as many of us are) and combined with his perfectionism and artistic vision it made him want to change himself. The fact that he was comfortable posing for photographs and had paintings of himself in his house suggests that he did not loathe his appearance entirely. I have no doubt though that the constant media (and public) mocking of his appearance exacerbated his insecurities greatly.

Thanks. I haven't diagnosed him though, I just gave my opinion as per the OP.

Good point about the paintings. Although I still think that only someone with major insecurities / condition would look at themselves in the TWYMMF video for example and think they need to change it so much.
 

Ms. BlueGangsta

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I think these sort of responses really stigmatise mental health issues. You have no problem with surmising what physical issues he may have had and use these as reasons for certain choices (lip syncing, appearance changes etc.), but when it comes to mental health like body dysmorphia you can't even entertain it.

Why not? Why is it terrible to consider this? Why can a man have vitiligo but not a mental issue? Are they so bad?

Like I say, attitudes like that really stigmatise mental health and make it difficult for people to open up and talk about them.

All I said was that I personally don't believe he had a mental issue, and as far as we know was NEVER diagnosed with anything, so you know no more then I do.
But If you have a problem with my opinion, so be it.

And for the record, if MJ was ACTUALLY DIAGNOSED with a mental issue I wouldn't care, and it would just be part of who he was.
I'd still love him as much as I do now, and all I could do was hope that he got help.

If you want to try and diagnose a man you didn't even know personally with a mental issue of some kind then go ahead, but don't be mad when other people don't agree.

I swear, everyone's a psychologist when it comes to MJ, and if you think I have a "stigmatizing attitude" be aware that it's just as dangerous and foolhardy to say that someone had a problem they themselves never said they had or (as far as we know) were diagnosed with.
 
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Tony R

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All I said was that I personally don't believe he had a mental issue, and as far as we know was NEVER diagnosed with anything, so you know no more then I do.
But If you have a problem with my opinion, so be it.

And for the record, if MJ was ACTUALLY DIAGNOSED with a mental issue I wouldn't care, and it would just be part of who he was.
I'd still love him as much as I do now, and all I could do was hope that he got help.

If you want to try and diagnose a man you didn't even know personally with a mental issue of some kind then go ahead, but don't be mad when other people don't agree.

I swear, everyone's a psychologist when it comes to MJ, and if you think I have a "stigmatizing attitude" be aware that it's just as dangerous and foolhardy to say that someone had a problem they themselves never said they had or (as far as we know) were diagnosed with.

You can read as much into it as you like, but a question was asked for our opinions and I answered.
 

Ms. BlueGangsta

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You can read as much into it as you like, but a question was asked for our opinions and I answered.

But the main and original question was whether or not we thought MJ lied about the amount of plastic surgeries he had, not whether or not he had body dysmorphia (or any other mental issue). :/
Granted, it was a secondary question, but I don't think such a thing should be taken lightly (and applied to MJ on a whim), nor do I think diagnosing MJ with body dysmorphia should become a theme in this thread. :/

I just really hate when people say things like that about MJ when he's already labeled as SO many things we know he wasn't. :\

TLDR: Why say MJ had a serious mental health issue none of us know whether or not he actually had when he's already been labeled as everything under the sun.
 
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prettyyoungthaang

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I swear, everyone's a psychologist when it comes to MJ

I don't think anyone is trying to coldly analyse him, personally I offer my input as an attempt to try and understand Michael a bit more - no-ones saying he does have this, doesn't have that etc. - it's just a theory. It's very true that he may have just been insecure and that's as far as it went, but I try and understand Michael as much as I can and that's merely it.
 

LindavG

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Thanks. I haven't diagnosed him though, I just gave my opinion as per the OP.

Good point about the paintings. Although I still think that only someone with major insecurities / condition would look at themselves in the TWYMMF video for example and think they need to change it so much.

I do think Michael had major insecurities about his appearance but that doesn't necessarily mean he had a disorder. Michael was always handsome to me but I can't say that his insecurities were irrational (as BDD is). He was a teen idol with severe acne on his face. He had a growth spurt when he went through puberty although the public were still expecting cute little Michael. Remember that story Michael told of a woman who approached him and his brothers and asked "where's little Michael?" and Michael said "I'm Michael" and the woman just said "Eww!"? That kind of experience would affect anyone's self-confidence. Then you had his father and his cousins teasing him about his nose and given how ubiquitous cosmetic surgery is in Hollywood, it's not surprising that he had it changed when he could. You could say he took it too far but perhaps Michael liked it that way? His nose always reminded me of that of Disney characters, with the tip pointed slightly upwards. Then he was diagnosed with lupus and vitiligo, which are both disfiguring conditions that cause depigmentation, rashes, hair loss, lesions, scarring, etc. He suffered third degree burns on his scalp which left a bald spot. The medication he had to take for his auto-immune diseases caused bloating ('moon face') and nail discoloration. All the while, the media and the public relentlessly mocked his appearance, plastering his most unflattering pictures all of the news, magnifying every perceived flaw, even going so far as to suggest his changing appearance meant he hated his race.

Yet despite all of this, Michael took great pride in how he presented himself. He dressed like royalty, especially in public. He comissioned paintings and photoshoots of himself for artistic purposes and hung them in the most public places of his house. His three best-selling albums Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad have a cover that only features him. He had a freaking statue of himself in many major cities around the world as promotion for HIStory.

So to compare the genuine insecurities he had about his appearance to a serious psychological disorder like body dismorphia does not seem accurate to me. His insecurities never prevented him from having a fulfilling (and very public) career.
 

Tony R

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^ the album covers is a good point. No album since 1987 had his face on in any real manner. That says something to me. Although admittedly that could be Sony's idea.
 

LindavG

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^ the album covers is a good point. No album since 1987 had his face on in any real manner. That says something to me. Although admittedly that could be Sony's idea.

Michael wanted the Dangerous cover to show just his eyes because "the eyes are the window to the soul" and he felt the Dangerous album was his most personal thus far. He talks about this on the Glenda tapes. The HIStory album cover matched the theme of the album's promotion. I don't really know what he was thinking with Invincible, lol.
 

prettyyoungthaang

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I do think Michael had major insecurities about his appearance but that doesn't necessarily mean he had a disorder. Michael was always handsome to me but I can't say that his insecurities were irrational (as BDD is). He was a teen idol with severe acne on his face. He had a growth spurt when he went through puberty although the public were still expecting cute little Michael. Remember that story Michael told of a woman who approached him and his brothers and asked "where's little Michael?" and Michael said "I'm Michael" and the woman just said "Eww!"? That kind of experience would affect anyone's self-confidence. Then you had his father and his cousins teasing him about his nose and given how ubiquitous cosmetic surgery is in Hollywood, it's not surprising that he had it changed when he could. You could say he took it too far but perhaps Michael liked it that way? His nose always reminded me of that of Disney characters, with the tip pointed slightly upwards. Then he was diagnosed with lupus and vitiligo, which are both disfiguring conditions that cause depigmentation, rashes, hair loss, lesions, scarring, etc. He suffered third degree burns on his scalp which left a bald spot. The medication he had to take for his auto-immune diseases caused bloating ('moon face') and nail discoloration. All the while, the media and the public relentlessly mocked his appearance, plastering his most unflattering pictures all of the news, magnifying every perceived flaw, even going so far as to suggest his changing appearance meant he hated his race.

Yet despite all of this, Michael took great pride in how he presented himself. He dressed like royalty, especially in public. He comissioned paintings and photoshoots of himself for artistic purposes and hung them in the most public places of his house. His three best-selling albums Off The Wall, Thriller and Bad have a cover that only features him. He had a freaking statue of himself in many major cities around the world as promotion for HIStory.

So to compare the genuine insecurities he had about his appearance to a serious psychological disorder like body dismorphia does not seem accurate to me. His insecurities never prevented him from having a fulfilling (and very public) career.

This is a good response, I see your points. It is hard to say, because I remember in the Glenda tapes, he does at one point say 'yeah, I'm happy with my face and stuff', so his self confidence probably wavered here and there like any other person's does and may not have been related to a mental disorder at all.
 

Michaels Lover

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Michael wanted the Dangerous cover to show just his eyes because "the eyes are the window to the soul" and he felt the Dangerous album was his most personal thus far. He talks about this on the Glenda tapes. The HIStory album cover matched the theme of the album's promotion. I don't really know what he was thinking with Invincible, lol.

the Invincible cover was inspired by the painting "golden boy"
nbww9z.jpg
 

Invincible777

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I don't think there were so much of plastic surgery. Like he said, two nosejobs and the cleft in his chin. I remember a video where a plastic surgeon said that after a nosejob the nose changes a bit after years. Maybe there was those reconstructive things and something, but here are some pics. And yeah, the media sucks.
michael4.png

nosurgery4.png

nosurgery6.png

nosurgery7.png

nosurgery12.png
 

17mosorio

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Some people have suggested that MJ may have had Body Dysmorphia - could this be true?

I believe that Michael did suffer from body dysmorphia--and I haven't seen much discussion about it besides how it relates to his nose/face.

From what I've gathered, it's pretty likely Michael had an eating disorder (see the Glenda Tapes; "And then I deal with this anorexia thing... I feel fat..."). Katherine also talked about Michael's worrying eating habits in her book.

Based on Michael's personality traits, how his upbringing was, the stress and constant scrutinization he had to deal with on a daily basis, it makes sense. Of course I'm not a professional, I wasn't Michael's doctor or psychiatrist, but just from what I've seen read from fairly reliable sources (including Michael's own words) it seems that he was struggling with this. I've dealt with eating disorders for many years, so I'm at least a little knowledgable on the subject. At least I think I am.. Lol

I brought the eating disorder up because BDD and EDs go hand in hand.

And I think maybe it's possible, but I don't think we could really know for sure. Had he been lying, I think what you said would be as reasonable as any other explanation for why he did.
 

LindavG

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I believe that Michael did suffer from body dysmorphia--and I haven't seen much discussion about it besides how it relates to his nose/face.

From what I've gathered, it's pretty likely Michael had an eating disorder (see the Glenda Tapes; "And then I deal with this anorexia thing... I feel fat..."). Katherine also talked about Michael's worrying eating habits in her book.

Based on Michael's personality traits, how his upbringing was, the stress and constant scrutinization he had to deal with on a daily basis, it makes sense. Of course I'm not a professional, I wasn't Michael's doctor or psychiatrist, but just from what I've seen read from fairly reliable sources (including Michael's own words) it seems that he was struggling with this. I've dealt with eating disorders for many years, so I'm at least a little knowledgable on the subject. At least I think I am.. Lol

I brought the eating disorder up because BDD and EDs go hand in hand.

And I think maybe it's possible, but I don't think we could really know for sure. Had he been lying, I think what you said would be as reasonable as any other explanation for why he did.

It's interesting that you brought up the eating disorder. I also think he had some kind of disorder related to eating, though not necessarily anorexia (refraining from eating in order to lose weight). There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Michael did not have a natural appetite for food - he ate because he had to or liked it but not because he was hungry. He fasted every Sunday (at least during the Thriller days) and when he was under a lot of stress (like during the Bad tour) he simply forgot to eat. When he was going through a hard time he lost any desire to eat. Elizabeth had to feed him during the 1993 allegations. I also remember someone asked him why he didn't eat or drink anything during the 2005 trial, and Michael said he was afraid he would have to regurgitate or use the bathroom with the guards watching over him :)cry:).

Then again, he was also known to love candy, KFC and Mexican food (esp. enchiladas with lots of cheese). He organised huge "family dinners" when he was working on his albums. He had his own private chef to prepare meals for him. When he went to the Cascios, he requested a big dinner with mashed potatoes and gravy, peach cobbler, stuffing, etc. He spoke about his love for Southern "soul food" which is known to be very greasy. His tea contained more sugar than water, lol. He liked to make French toast (bread dipped in egg with sugar and cinnamon) for breakfast. So I think that if Michael liked the taste of something, he had no problem eating it no matter how many calories it contained. But if he wasn't in the mood for eating, he could go days without it.
 
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