Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Which means that the songs were recorded after Michael passed away. What a tragic. He was definitely "stabbed in the back, as a matter of fact"
 

BUMPER SNIPPET

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

The Estate claimed they hired the best and the second best audiologists in the country to carry out the analyses. Um, ok, who are they? We've never gotten that answer.

Now, I am curious, based purely on the pronunciation, which serious professional linguist on Earth would claim that the singer on the 3 infamous songs has the same characteristics of speech as Michael Jackson? For sure, neither the best nor the second best audiologist/linguist would ever claim that. Those who believe the Estate/Sony Music that they hired the best and the second best audiologists/linguists believe either a huge lie or those audiologists/linguists had been bribed to deny clear facts, or they simply are not the best or the second best ones in the country.

Back in the day, I carried out the analyses of the speech and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Papcun (whom I don't know personally), so if there are other linguists around here, go ahead, carry out the analysis and come back with your conclusions.

I'm giving you an assignment, to all MJ fans who believe that MJ sings on those three infamous songs:

Find me a single song in the whole MJ's catalogue, name any song in which MJ does not pronounce the letter "t" in the middle of the words such as "better", "waiting/waitin' ", "starting/startin' ", "etc. Go ahead, hunt, then come back and share what you have found out.
 
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dam2040

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

If the Estate admit the songs are fake, would there be any ramifications? Could they simply say 'We were tricked, so the Michael album has been updated and we apologise for it'
 

SoCav

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

If it's not conclusive, it cannot be strong, right? Because it simply is logical that you could have an audiologist conclude the other way since it is within the realm of possibilities. This report simply served its purpose but you should expect its shortcomings to be demonstrated.
Of course a piece of evidence can be strong while not conclusive on its own.

And yes, in theory audiologists can disagree and reach different conclusions. But we have not actually seen anyone do that. The Estate claimed the experts they hired did, but there is no way for us to evaluate that evidence, so it may as well not exist.

You haven't seen theirs but yet you claim Papcun's would be more detailed. I wouldn't call a different approach - due to lack of source material - to be "much more detailed", that's raising expectations that it simply won't live up to.
I say Papcun's analysis is more detailed based on Howard Weitzman's description of the Sony and Estate analyses. He says the experts they hired performed waveform analysis, while Papcun's was more comprehensive and consisted of a variety of approaches (he also states that his approach is more detailed and accurate in the report).

This is known since it was made. Yet Damien is again writing sensational ficitional stories about it being hard "evidence" for just that. This is just wrong and highly misleading as usual.
The headline to his article is "EXCLUSIVE: Forensic report concludes posthumous Michael Jackson album DID include FAKE songs, sung by an impostor!" There's nothing inaccurate about that, is there? The article itself relies on direct quotes from Dr. Papcun's report. How is this writing sensational fictional stories?
 

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SoCav;4230024 said:
There's nothing inaccurate about that, is there? The article itself relies on direct quotes from Dr. Papcun's report. How is this writing sensational fictional stories?

I was referring to his public tweets, always talking about malachi and the fact he‘s been writing sensational nonsense regarding the appeal court‘s ruling.
 

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

The Estate claimed they hired the best and the second best audiologists in the country to carry out the analyses. Um, ok, who are they? We've never gotten that answer.

Now, I am curious, based purely on the pronunciation, which serious professional linguist on Earth would claim that the singer on the 3 infamous songs has the same characteristics of speech as Michael Jackson? For sure, neither the best nor the second best audiologist/linguist would ever claim that. Those who believe the Estate/Sony Music that they hired the best and the second best audiologists/linguists believe either a huge lie or those audiologists/linguists had been bribed to deny clear facts, or they simply are not the best or the second best ones in the country.

Back in the day, I carried out the analyses of the speech and came to the same conclusions as Dr. Papcun (whom I don't know personally), so if there are other linguists around here, go ahead, carry out the analysis and come back with your conclusions.

I'm giving you an assignment, to all MJ fans who believe that MJ sings on those three infamous songs:

Find me a single song in the whole MJ's catalogue, name any song in which MJ does not pronounce the letter "t" in the middle of the words such as "better", "waiting/waitin' ", "starting/startin' ", "etc. Go ahead, hunt, then come back and share what you have found out.
I find it staggering that there are still people who don't accept the fact that it's not Michael Jackson singing on those songs. I knew it the first time I had heard them, before I had ever heard anything about any controversy. It's just obvious.
 

SmoothGangsta

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

If the Estate admit the songs are fake, would there be any ramifications? Could they simply say 'We were tricked, so the Michael album has been updated and we apologise for it'

They could probably use the free speech thing to continue selling the songs anyway.
 

stephenvalek

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

So can I ask,all this is about the authenticity of the LEAD VOCAL,and the tests carried out on the lead,of those three songs?
What about backing vocals? Because a lot claim they hear Michael,but the confusion lies in what capacity is Michael singing in those songs ..

So are we claiming non whatsoever? Or a very small percentage ?
 

BUMPER SNIPPET

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Well, imho, the whole issue is about the lead vocals. TBH, does it really matter who sings the backing vocals?

But in this very case, I personally don't hear MJ in the backing vocals, except here and there some copy pastes from the previously (un)released tracks. Anyway, I, personally do not have access to the isolated voices in the background so didn't bother to analyse them.
 

stephenvalek

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Well, imho, the whole issue is about the lead vocals. TBH, does it really matter who sings the backing vocals?

But in this very case, I personally don't hear MJ in the backing vocals, except here and there some copy pastes from the previously (un)released tracks. Anyway, I, personally do not have access to the isolated voices in the background so didn't bother to analyse them.

Ok..thanks..I just wanted to clear it up,and appreciate the feedback in this thread,and the time and effort you guys are putting into this
 

dam2040

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I personally believe and always have that Michael Jackson never heard these songs, or had any idea they existed.
 

Korgnex

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

They could probably use the free speech thing to continue selling the songs anyway.

No, they could not. This is what is being misunderstood and written about from folks who do not understand what the appeal court's ruling was actually about.

They ONLY said that the examples Serova's lawyers had given would not constitute "commercial speech", thus they are not relevant as examples of how consumers could have been deceived because these were opinions and not statements that you could attribute to them.
Think about many documentaries by companies that have a disclaimer that says that the persons' statements are their own and do not represent the company's stance on things. There's a reason why this is often stated (it doesn't have to be) which is to make it easier for throwing off lawsuits from the beginning.

Serova's lawyers' did not explain how else Sony/Estate should be sued for fraud since they did not include a fraud claim against them which was not a good idea since taking them to court for constructive fraud - which US Californian law has included as a felony in its Civil Code - would force them to enter trial to prove this was not the case.

The moment there would be a court verdict that states the songs are fake, their distribution would be against the law because they would knowingly misrepresent a material fact to consumers and thus commit first degree fraud called "intentional fraud" by US Californian Civil Code.
 
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SmoothGangsta

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

No, they could not. This is what is being misunderstood and written about from folks who do not understand what the appeal court's ruling was actually about.

They ONLY said that the examples Serova's lawyers had given would not constitute "commercial speech", thus they are not relevant as examples of how consumers could have been deceived because these were opinions and not statements that you could attribute to them.
Think about many documentaries by companies that have a disclaimer that says that the persons' statements are their own and do not represent the company's stance on things. There's a reason why this is often stated (it doesn't have to be) which is to make it easier for throwing off lawsuits from the beginning.

Serova's lawyers' did not explain how else Sony/Estate should be sued for fraud since they did not include a fraud claim against them which was not a good idea since taking them to court for constructive fraud - which US Californian law has included as a felony in its Civil Code - would force them to enter trial to prove this was not the case.

The moment there would be a court verdict that states the songs are fake, their distribution would be against the law because they would knowingly misrepresent a material fact to consumers and thus commit first degree fraud called "intentional fraud" by US Californian Civil Code.

Thanks for the info.
 

kreen

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Those collections copyrighted in June of 2009 contain songs with James Porte's vocals. Not MJ's, and not Cascio tracks vocalist's.

How do you know this?
 

Slave To The Rhythm

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Well I have to say that I really appreciate comments like those by Korgnex and also SoCav. They are exchanging opinions that are backed with knowledge and informations. They have a different opinion but explain them and that‘s how it should be. Other people here are just stating their opinion without any explanations...
 

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I personally think the analysis by Dr. Papcun is really interesting and the first real analysis we got!

He concludes the songs are not sung by Michael. I conclude the same after reading his analysis and I had that feeling before...

Of course he can‘t say that it is for sure not Michael because Michael could have changed his dialect or could have pronounced some words different in these recordings but how likely is it??? Very unlikely. I‘m not studying Linguistics but I‘m studying English and Linguistics is a part of it. While I‘m not an expert I would still say that his analysis makes a lot of sense.

That‘s why I really wonder how an expert could come to the conclusion that the lead vocals are definitely Michael. You have to do a Linguistic analysis to say that and like I said before the analysis by Dr. Papcun has some good points. Combined with the fact that Sony also lied when they told us that all
all producers and people who worked with Mike said that the vocals are his when in fact some people who were in that room claimed afterwards they had doubts and expressed their opinion clearly.

I think Sony should finally release the analysis they claim to have. If it really exists what is their problem? Are the afraid that the analysis might not be strong enough?
 
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BUMPER SNIPPET

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.
 

morinen

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

How do you know this?

These recordings are publicly available for inspection at the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. Anyone can make an appointment, come and hear them. We did.

Inspection of Copyright Office Records
You can inspect (a) completed records and indexes related to a registration or a recorded document and (b) copies or identifying
material deposited in connection with a completed registration or rejection in the Records Research and Certification Section. Some of these materials are stored outside the Copyright Office; contact section staff to determine how long it will take to retrieve the requested materials. Inspection hours are Monday through Friday, 8:30 am to 5:00 pm, eastern time, except federal holidays and are prearranged.
https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ06.pdf
 
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kai

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Michael is not even in the backing-vocals there...
And who ever think it's not important that MJ sing the backingvocals:
Go listen to songs like "She Drives Me Wild", "Billie Jean" etc. imagine those songs MJ only on lead.. hell no..
A reason why MJs songs were so GREAT and BIG were that you could hear him singing like 10 harmonies at once!
 

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.

I very much doubt they got anyone to look at the songs. And even if they did I wouldn't put much faith in an analysis that was done overnight.
 

SoCav

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.
Totally agree with your description of Michael vs Jason and it doesn't negate your point, but that TWYMMF performance was largely lip-synced to the (pitched down) album vocal.
 

kreen

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

These recordings are publicly available for inspection at the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. Anyone can make an appointment, come and hear them. We did.


https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ06.pdf

Give us more detail: how many songs were there? Was it just the songs themselves or also outtakes, work tapes, things like that?

Also, did you take the opportunity to listen to some of MJ's other, almost mythical unreleased songs that are listed in the Copyrights Office? Like Men in Black is in there, Chicago 1945, isn't the Will.I.am stuff also listed?
 

Been Told

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I'm really starting to think that Korgnex may actually be Eddie Cascio. Why would anyone else try to defend those fake songs so much?? And that would explain a lot of things how he has all the unreleased material that he has.

Korgnex is 100% definitely not Eddie Cascio lol. I've known him for many years and even though we disagree on this completely (the Cascio tracks), he is not Eddie. He's German, by the way.
 

OnirMJ

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

^Hey Vera, about that CD recording with Porte vocals that were submitted few days after Michael passed.. were there all 12 songs? Or just some of them. And then they registered more afterwards?

How does the Porte demos sound? Is instrumental exactly the same on those registered tracks as on leaked Cascio tracks?
 

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

If it's not conclusive, it cannot be strong, right? Because it simply is logical that you could have an audiologist conclude the other way since it is within the realm of possibilities. This report simply served its purpose but you should expect its shortcomings to be demonstrated.

You haven't seen theirs but yet you claim Papcun's would be more detailed. I wouldn't call a different approach - due to lack of source material - to be "much more detailed", that's raising expectations that it simply won't live up to.

This is known since it was made. Yet Damien is again writing sensational ficitional stories about it being hard "evidence" for just that. This is just wrong and highly misleading as usual.

Damien shields irritates me.....he always has.
 

SoCav

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

^Why?
 

kai

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

have fun :D

 

barbee0715

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Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I have only casually followed this since I was not interested in the Michael album, but there were some heavy hitters in the list that said Michael sang on the Cascio songs. (Bruce, Greg, etc)
Who came out later and disputed that?
 
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