Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

dam2040

Proud Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Messages
5,555
Points
83
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I personally believe and always have that Michael Jackson never heard these songs, or had any idea they existed.
 

Korgnex

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
2,401
Points
83
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

They could probably use the free speech thing to continue selling the songs anyway.

No, they could not. This is what is being misunderstood and written about from folks who do not understand what the appeal court's ruling was actually about.

They ONLY said that the examples Serova's lawyers had given would not constitute "commercial speech", thus they are not relevant as examples of how consumers could have been deceived because these were opinions and not statements that you could attribute to them.
Think about many documentaries by companies that have a disclaimer that says that the persons' statements are their own and do not represent the company's stance on things. There's a reason why this is often stated (it doesn't have to be) which is to make it easier for throwing off lawsuits from the beginning.

Serova's lawyers' did not explain how else Sony/Estate should be sued for fraud since they did not include a fraud claim against them which was not a good idea since taking them to court for constructive fraud - which US Californian law has included as a felony in its Civil Code - would force them to enter trial to prove this was not the case.

The moment there would be a court verdict that states the songs are fake, their distribution would be against the law because they would knowingly misrepresent a material fact to consumers and thus commit first degree fraud called "intentional fraud" by US Californian Civil Code.
 
Last edited:

SmoothGangsta

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
2,589
Points
63
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

No, they could not. This is what is being misunderstood and written about from folks who do not understand what the appeal court's ruling was actually about.

They ONLY said that the examples Serova's lawyers had given would not constitute "commercial speech", thus they are not relevant as examples of how consumers could have been deceived because these were opinions and not statements that you could attribute to them.
Think about many documentaries by companies that have a disclaimer that says that the persons' statements are their own and do not represent the company's stance on things. There's a reason why this is often stated (it doesn't have to be) which is to make it easier for throwing off lawsuits from the beginning.

Serova's lawyers' did not explain how else Sony/Estate should be sued for fraud since they did not include a fraud claim against them which was not a good idea since taking them to court for constructive fraud - which US Californian law has included as a felony in its Civil Code - would force them to enter trial to prove this was not the case.

The moment there would be a court verdict that states the songs are fake, their distribution would be against the law because they would knowingly misrepresent a material fact to consumers and thus commit first degree fraud called "intentional fraud" by US Californian Civil Code.

Thanks for the info.
 

kreen

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
902
Points
18
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Those collections copyrighted in June of 2009 contain songs with James Porte's vocals. Not MJ's, and not Cascio tracks vocalist's.

How do you know this?
 

Slave To The Rhythm

Proud Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
417
Points
18
Location
Bavaria, Germany
Well I have to say that I really appreciate comments like those by Korgnex and also SoCav. They are exchanging opinions that are backed with knowledge and informations. They have a different opinion but explain them and that‘s how it should be. Other people here are just stating their opinion without any explanations...
 

Slave To The Rhythm

Proud Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
417
Points
18
Location
Bavaria, Germany
I personally think the analysis by Dr. Papcun is really interesting and the first real analysis we got!

He concludes the songs are not sung by Michael. I conclude the same after reading his analysis and I had that feeling before...

Of course he can‘t say that it is for sure not Michael because Michael could have changed his dialect or could have pronounced some words different in these recordings but how likely is it??? Very unlikely. I‘m not studying Linguistics but I‘m studying English and Linguistics is a part of it. While I‘m not an expert I would still say that his analysis makes a lot of sense.

That‘s why I really wonder how an expert could come to the conclusion that the lead vocals are definitely Michael. You have to do a Linguistic analysis to say that and like I said before the analysis by Dr. Papcun has some good points. Combined with the fact that Sony also lied when they told us that all
all producers and people who worked with Mike said that the vocals are his when in fact some people who were in that room claimed afterwards they had doubts and expressed their opinion clearly.

I think Sony should finally release the analysis they claim to have. If it really exists what is their problem? Are the afraid that the analysis might not be strong enough?
 
Last edited:

BUMPER SNIPPET

Proud Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2003
Messages
2,357
Points
36
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.
 

morinen

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
1,074
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

How do you know this?

These recordings are publicly available for inspection at the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. Anyone can make an appointment, come and hear them. We did.

Inspection of Copyright Office Records
You can inspect (a) completed records and indexes related to a registration or a recorded document and (b) copies or identifying
material deposited in connection with a completed registration or rejection in the Records Research and Certification Section. Some of these materials are stored outside the Copyright Office; contact section staff to determine how long it will take to retrieve the requested materials. Inspection hours are Monday through Friday, 8:30 am to 5:00 pm, eastern time, except federal holidays and are prearranged.
https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ06.pdf
 
Last edited:

kai

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
3,171
Points
83
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Michael is not even in the backing-vocals there...
And who ever think it's not important that MJ sing the backingvocals:
Go listen to songs like "She Drives Me Wild", "Billie Jean" etc. imagine those songs MJ only on lead.. hell no..
A reason why MJs songs were so GREAT and BIG were that you could hear him singing like 10 harmonies at once!
 

SmoothGangsta

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
2,589
Points
63
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.

I very much doubt they got anyone to look at the songs. And even if they did I wouldn't put much faith in an analysis that was done overnight.
 

SoCav

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
1,906
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

We've been asking for their alleged analyses since 2010. All we got was their blabla without any single piece of evidence. On top of that they said the original takes were destroyed or erased it whatever their excuse was.

MJ never used the same characteristics of speech as the singer on the Cascio tracks.

As far as the voice is concerned I invite fans to listen to MJ's TWYMMF live with Britney Spears and to pay attention how powerful MJ's voice is when he sings. You can hear clearly that he's a professional singer using his lungs. Then listen to Monster or Breaking News and you'll hear a powerless and choked voice which indicates clear lack of skills and suggests that the singer overwhelms his throat. Awful.
Totally agree with your description of Michael vs Jason and it doesn't negate your point, but that TWYMMF performance was largely lip-synced to the (pitched down) album vocal.
 

kreen

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
902
Points
18
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

These recordings are publicly available for inspection at the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. Anyone can make an appointment, come and hear them. We did.


https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ06.pdf

Give us more detail: how many songs were there? Was it just the songs themselves or also outtakes, work tapes, things like that?

Also, did you take the opportunity to listen to some of MJ's other, almost mythical unreleased songs that are listed in the Copyrights Office? Like Men in Black is in there, Chicago 1945, isn't the Will.I.am stuff also listed?
 

Been Told

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
41
Points
0
Location
Germany
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I'm really starting to think that Korgnex may actually be Eddie Cascio. Why would anyone else try to defend those fake songs so much?? And that would explain a lot of things how he has all the unreleased material that he has.

Korgnex is 100% definitely not Eddie Cascio lol. I've known him for many years and even though we disagree on this completely (the Cascio tracks), he is not Eddie. He's German, by the way.
 

OnirMJ

Proud Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
6,324
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

^Hey Vera, about that CD recording with Porte vocals that were submitted few days after Michael passed.. were there all 12 songs? Or just some of them. And then they registered more afterwards?

How does the Porte demos sound? Is instrumental exactly the same on those registered tracks as on leaked Cascio tracks?
 

Mikky Dee

Sunset Driver, Midnight Rider
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Messages
2,993
Points
63
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

If it's not conclusive, it cannot be strong, right? Because it simply is logical that you could have an audiologist conclude the other way since it is within the realm of possibilities. This report simply served its purpose but you should expect its shortcomings to be demonstrated.

You haven't seen theirs but yet you claim Papcun's would be more detailed. I wouldn't call a different approach - due to lack of source material - to be "much more detailed", that's raising expectations that it simply won't live up to.

This is known since it was made. Yet Damien is again writing sensational ficitional stories about it being hard "evidence" for just that. This is just wrong and highly misleading as usual.

Damien shields irritates me.....he always has.
 

SoCav

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
1,906
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

^Why?
 

kai

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
3,171
Points
83
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

have fun :D

 

barbee0715

Proud Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
6,940
Points
63
Location
Texas, USA
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I have only casually followed this since I was not interested in the Michael album, but there were some heavy hitters in the list that said Michael sang on the Cascio songs. (Bruce, Greg, etc)
Who came out later and disputed that?
 

SoCav

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
1,906
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

I have only casually followed this since I was not interested in the Michael album, but there were some heavy hitters in the list that said Michael sang on the Cascio songs. (Bruce, Greg, etc)
Who came out later and disputed that?
You can hear Bruce Swedien himself say "it sounds like him but there's no guarantee" at 1.21 in the Faking Michael trailer. That's very different from what Weitzman said in his statement ("They (the producers they invited to the listening session) all confirmed that the vocal was definitely Michael"). And that's just Bruce. The statement also listed Michael Prince as one of the producers and he says in the trailer that he told them at the time that there were too many audio dead ends for Cascio/Porte to be telling the truth. And of course we already knew Cory Rooney and Taryll said the vocals were fake too. Taryll says Teddy Riley told him the same thing.

And this is just based on the limited information we have. I'm sure when Damien releases his podcast we'll learn more. But it's clear they blatantly lied about that infamous listening session.
 

SmoothGangsta

Proud Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
2,589
Points
63
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

You can hear Bruce Swedien himself say "it sounds like him but there's no guarantee" at 1.21 in the Faking Michael trailer. That's very different from what Weitzman said in his statement ("They (the producers they invited to the listening session) all confirmed that the vocal was definitely Michael"). And that's just Bruce. The statement also listed Michael Prince as one of the producers and he says in the trailer that he told them at the time that there were too many audio dead ends for Cascio/Porte to be telling the truth. And of course we already knew Cory Rooney and Taryll said the vocals were fake too. Taryll says Teddy Riley told him the same thing.

And this is just based on the limited information we have. I'm sure when Damien releases his podcast we'll learn more. But it's clear they blatantly lied about that infamous listening session.

I'm not trying to be a downer but I don't see anything groundbreaking coming from the podcast. Interesting info sure, but nothing that could be used legally.
 

morinen

Proud Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
1,074
Points
48
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

^Hey Vera, about that CD recording with Porte vocals that were submitted few days after Michael passed.. were there all 12 songs? Or just some of them. And then they registered more afterwards?

How does the Porte demos sound? Is instrumental exactly the same on those registered tracks as on leaked Cascio tracks?

I'll leave it to Damien to share the details. It's his story to tell - my place is to see justice in court .

I'm not trying to be a downer but I don't see anything groundbreaking coming from the podcast. Interesting info sure, but nothing that could be used legally.

The complaint is based on his findings, and they were cited in subsequent court papers as well. This case probably wouldn't have happened if not for his research.
 

Been Told

Proud Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
41
Points
0
Location
Germany
Re: Estate, Cascio and Porte Sued Over Three Songs on the "Michael" Album - Vera Senova Class Action

Damien shields irritates me.....he always has.
He's one of the nicest people I have ever dealt with in the MJ fan community. Why does he irritate you?
 
Top