I Am a Fan, But... (What Makes You Heretic Among Other Fans?)

AG5050

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I never cared for YANA...

Same, its my least favourite of his 'hits/well known songs'. To me it's always been a generic bland R&B ballad. Michaels amazing vocal performance does lift it a bit beyond that but I still don't massively care for it, the main reason I listen to it is for the ad libs at the end which are killer.
 

fraroc04

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I'm probably going to get flak for saying this. But, I would not end a friendship with someone solely because they believe all the stuff in Leaving Neverland or that they think Michael Jackson was guilty. I would not end a friendship on that basis alone, but however I WILL end it when I see them either attacking other people or attacking me for disagreeing with them.
 

83magic

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I don't feel it's my duty to explain and defend the actions of someone that I've never met or spoken to (I've made that mistake in the past). Michael is my favourite artist, but his personal life has nothing to do with me.
 

ksat9

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I wish he moved out of America like Tina Turner and never came back.
As an American I can say our country has done such a disgraceful, despicable, pathetic, and down right horrible job towards him and his family.
We did not deserve for him to be from our country with the way they’ve treated him.
I’m watching clips from the 2005 trial from the media’s perspective and I am just disgusted at how they treated him.
I understand having an open mind of possible guilt, but they never gave him a chance or even thought to see the other side.
Their reporting is why the ones who feel he is guilty before researching refuse to see 2005 case.

I wish he worked more with Randy on music.
Triumph and Destiny has some of his best writing to me.
I’m still holding out for the Triumph tour
 

ksat9

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AG5050;4247470 said:
Same, its my least favourite of his 'hits/well known songs'. To me it's always been a generic bland R&B ballad. Michaels amazing vocal performance does lift it a bit beyond that but I still don't massively care for it, the main reason I listen to it is for the ad libs at the end which are killer.
I’ve never liked that song and it had nothing to do with R.Kelly.
 

Frankyboy5

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1. I believe there were points where MJ was rude/obnoxious towards his peers, so it was rather hypocritical for him to say "great artists don't do that" (regarding Eminem). Sure, he meant to keep these entitled opinions to himself or people he trusted but it is inevitable someone would spill the beans. The following are circumstantial tabloid stories, but don't seem far-fetched in my mind. For example how will.i.am said he felt insulted by Prince playing the guitar in his face or the story that he basically trashed on Purple Rain. Another is Paul Anka claiming he would trash Donny Osmond behind his back, even though Donny has spoke of him so well on many occasions. I know Anka got a lot of flak for claiming that MJ "stole" his I Never Heard/This Is It tapes (MJ just re-recorded them), but it still seems like a poor move on MJ's part. If Anka wanted to scrap the project, MJ shouldn't have secretly recorded the song against his wishes.

2. Jarvis Cocker - I don't agree with his actions but I can see why people hated the Earth Song performance.

3. A lot of fans hate Barbara Walters for being seemingly condescending toward MJ during her interview, but I found her questions realistic and reasonably. MJ just played the victim card too much.

4. Billie Jean MSG First night was far more innovative than the second one, which was comparably lazy/weak as Johannesburg.

5. Whatzupwitu has among the best ad-libs ever.
 
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Cinnamon234

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MJ's vocals on "Whatzupwitu" is everything!

I'm a big fan of Michael but I have to say that I do feel upset at times that he made so many poor decisions and now his fans and family are left constantly having to defend him.

I wish he had never had these sleepovers with kids or had such a fascination with children and recreating his chidhood.

He had tons of nieces and nephews. There was no need to constantly befriend outside children and their families.

I mean, I understand why in some ways he did the things he did because children didn't care that he was famous and they didn't use him like most adults. They just liked him for him.

I just wish he had gotten help. I wish he had sought therapy.
 

analogue

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I wish some fans would stop calling him ''An angel'' - It's even worse when fans call him that while defended him against the false molestation allegations. It doesn't make the fans look good, and it's why fans are called crazy and deluded
 

StageGlitter

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1. I don't agree or disagree with (some of) the allegations
2. I like the album Bad more than Thriller
 

StageGlitter

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^^^
MJ's vocals on "Whatzupwitu" is everything!

I'm a big fan of Michael but I have to say that I do feel upset at times that he made so many poor decisions and now his fans and family are left constantly having to defend him.

I wish he had never had these sleepovers with kids or had such a fascination with children and recreating his chidhood.

He had tons of nieces and nephews. There was no need to constantly befriend outside children and their families.

I mean, I understand why in some ways he did the things he did because children didn't care that he was famous and they didn't use him like most adults. They just liked him for him.

I just wish he had gotten help. I wish he had sought therapy.

Great response. Michael definitely, definetely needed therapy for that. That is burdensome for his family and aliases to have to constantly defend him for his poor choices. (He did have plenty of nieces and nephews to spend time with, so I have no idea why he was so attached with others' children...)
 

StageGlitter

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I don't feel it's my duty to explain and defend the actions of someone that I've never met or spoken to (I've made that mistake in the past). Michael is my favourite artist, but his personal life has nothing to do with me.

Very true. I have also stepped back at this point. His life was his life and I'm not God, so my "opinion" from my outside perspective will never be valid.
 

somewhereinthedark

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StageGlitter;4265503 said:
Very true. I have also stepped back at this point. His life was his life and I'm not God, so my "opinion" from my outside perspective will never be valid.

My opinion is just as valid and even more VALID than any hater, because fans have proof that these fake accusers are liars. I am not going to subscribe to the idea that my opinion is not valid because I’m on the “outside”. I would never allow myself to do that. FTR, haters are also on the “outside”, and they give their opinions without an ounce of evidence to support their opinions. Btw, if a fan doesn’t want to support Michael’s innocence against liars, false accusations, etc. then that is your/their prerogative, just don’t try to get others to follow your actions, by saying you are not God. None of us are God; however, that doesn’t mean you sit idly by and accept liars’ false accusations. The bottomline is either support against the liars or step back and don’t.
 

83magic

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somewhereinthedark;4265534 said:
My opinion is just as valid and even more VALID than any hater, because fans have proof that these fake accusers are liars. I am not going to subscribe to the idea that my opinion is not valid because I’m on the “outside”. I would never allow myself to do that. FTR, haters are also on the “outside”, and they give their opinions without an ounce of evidence to support their opinions. Btw, if a fan doesn’t want to support Michael’s innocence against liars, false accusations, etc. then that is your/their prerogative, just don’t try to get others to follow your actions, by saying you are not God. None of us are God; however, that doesn’t mean you sit idly by and accept liars’ false accusations. The bottomline is either support against the liars or step back and don’t.

if people like myself choose not to get involved in this mess at all, that is our right. this isn't an 'either or' situation. we are free to think, feel, and act as we see fit. as long as we're not breaking any of the rules on this board. we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or as 'lesser fans' for not wanting to be consumed with fighting enemies. there's so much more to Michael than that. some of us have been enjoying Michael's art for decades, and would like to continue doing that in peace. i'm so glad that the documentary has been given its own section away from everything else on this board.
 

83magic

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I wish some fans would stop calling him ''An angel'' - It's even worse when fans call him that while defended him against the false molestation allegations. It doesn't make the fans look good, and it's why fans are called crazy and deluded

I would also add 'king' to the list. It sounds like grovelling and worshipping to me. it's possible to enjoy something/someone without being a slave.
 

83magic

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Very true. I have also stepped back at this point. His life was his life and I'm not God, so my "opinion" from my outside perspective will never be valid.

I feel so much lighter as a result of letting go of that side of things, that i'm able to enjoy his art even more :)
 

Anna

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I would also add 'king' to the list. It sounds like grovelling and worshipping to me. it's possible to enjoy something/someone without being a slave.
He's called the King Of Pop, of course people are going to call him 'king'.
 

83magic

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it's not just 'king', it's 'our king'. I heard some fans straight up refer to him as god. even though they claim to be atheists.. he was human. a very talent human, but still human
 

somewhereinthedark

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83magic;4265565 said:
it's not just 'king', it's 'our king'. I heard some fans straight up refer to him as god. even though they claim to be atheists.. he was human. a very talent human, but still human

IMO, you are over reacting. You are also taking words out of context. Calling a person a “god” is not the same as calling them God. Calling a person “our king” is another way of saying he is our “King of Pop”. It’s annoying how some of you have a sinister reaction to things that are just simple.🤔
 

somewhereinthedark

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analogue;4265482 said:
I wish some fans would stop calling him ''An angel'' - It's even worse when fans call him that while defended him against the false molestation allegations. It doesn't make the fans look good, and it's why fans are called crazy and deluded

Calling Michael an “angel” is not saying that in a Biblical sense. Fans, and other people, use the word “angel” to represent, goodness, kindness, humility, etc. Michael was a good, kind and humble person, thus the “angel” moniker. I have called many people “angels”, and I didn’t mean the ones from the Bible. Btw, I have heard people who knew or met Michael say he was too good and kind for this earth and have called him an “angel”. FTR, these people weren’t really fans, they just knew him or worked around him.

Finally, I never ever worry about what people say about me when I defend Michael. Maybe it’s because anyone who considers it crazy and deluded to defend an Innocent man, is crazy and deluded THEMSELVES.
 

83magic

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nobody is 100% anything. i'm sure Michael had many sides to him like most people. these titles place him on a pedestal above everybody else. an unrealistic standard that nobody can live up to.

it's not surprising that fans do this, as he encouraged it himself, with certain paintings he commissioned of himself (portraying jesus at the last supper), photoshoots, videos ('history teaser'), and performances, etc..

strangely enough, none of this was happening in '83 - which was his most innovative and successful year. sure, he was known for being 'special' and 'different', but that fascination was based on something genuine. slowly but surely after that year, a larger than life image was manufactured and his art (which he was known for in the first place) was pushed to the background.

Michael was warned about the implications of certain behaviours. he didn't listen. it cost him his reputation, and led him down a downward spiral. I don't think the conversation is as simple as 'innocent' and 'guilty'. I believe there is a middle ground; it's one thing to care about children and enjoy spending time with them. it's another to be obsessed to the point where you state that you want to be buried next to them, and you would kill yourself if they ceased to exist. now did that obsession shift into something sinister? I hope not, and I've yet to see any real convincing evidence of that. it's not hard to see why some would doubt him though. there was no reason for children to be in his bed at all (he admitted to being in bed with the culkins, and brett barnes admitted that he slept in bed with Michael). especially after the first allegations where he settled out of court. I blame the parents and everybody around him as much as I blame him. as some others have stated, he should have sought help. yet fans just want to make excuses and point the finger at everybody else. why is he immune from taking responsibility for his own actions? how can you claim he's a genius in one breath then claim he was oblivious to the obvious in the next?

for what it's worth, I think it's extremely unfair that this documentary was allowed to be made since he's not here to defend himself. he was cleared during his lifetime, and the current accusers changed their stories. I certainly don't think he should be cancelled and I certainly will never do that. still, all of that could have been avoided from the beginning..

this thread was supposed to be a safe space for people with unpopular opinions to express themselves (in a respectful way of course). yet we're still being sucked into group-think and told that we're annoying. i'm only here because I was quoted. haven't been here in ages.. one can just check my post history to see that I mainly keep it focused on the music.
 

somewhereinthedark

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nobody is 100% anything. i'm sure Michael had many sides to him like most people. these titles place him on a pedestal above everybody else. an unrealistic standard that nobody can live up to.

it's not surprising that fans do this, as he encouraged it himself, with certain paintings he commissioned of himself (portraying jesus at the last supper), photoshoots, videos ('history teaser'), and performances, etc..

strangely enough, none of this was happening in '83 - which was his most innovative and successful year. sure, he was known for being 'special' and 'different', but that fascination was based on something genuine. slowly but surely after that year, a larger than life image was manufactured and his art (which he was known for in the first place) was pushed to the background.

Michael was warned about the implications of certain behaviours. he didn't listen. it cost him his reputation, and led him down a downward spiral. I don't think the conversation is as simple as 'innocent' and 'guilty'. I believe there is a middle ground; it's one thing to care about children and enjoy spending time with them. it's another to be obsessed to the point where you state that you want to be buried next to them, and you would kill yourself if they ceased to exist. now did that obsession shift into something sinister? I hope not, and I've yet to see any real convincing evidence of that. it's not hard to see why some would doubt him though. there was no reason for children to be in his bed at all (he admitted to being in bed with the culkins, and brett barnes admitted that he slept in bed with Michael). especially after the first allegations where he settled out of court. I blame the parents and everybody around him as much as I blame him. as some others have stated, he should have sought help. yet fans just want to make excuses and point the finger at everybody else. why is he immune from taking responsibility for his own actions? how can you claim he's a genius in one breath then claim he was oblivious to the obvious in the next?

for what it's worth, I think it's extremely unfair that this documentary was allowed to be made since he's not here to defend himself. he was cleared during his lifetime, and the current accusers changed their stories. I certainly don't think he should be cancelled and I certainly will never do that. still, all of that could have been avoided from the beginning..

this thread was supposed to be a safe space for people with unpopular opinions to express themselves (in a respectful way of course). yet we're still being sucked into group-think and told that we're annoying. i'm only here because I was quoted. haven't been here in ages.. one can just check my post history to see that I mainly keep it focused on the music.

This is a safe place for people with unpopular opionions. However, it is also a safe place for people to DISAGREE with those unpopular opinions. Hopefully, all of us are mature enough to know that not everyone is going to AGREE with your opinion, just as you are not going to agree with my opionion of your statements.
 

SmoothGangsta

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if people like myself choose not to get involved in this mess at all, that is our right. this isn't an 'either or' situation. we are free to think, feel, and act as we see fit. as long as we're not breaking any of the rules on this board. we shouldn't be made to feel guilty or as 'lesser fans' for not wanting to be consumed with fighting enemies. there's so much more to Michael than that. some of us have been enjoying Michael's art for decades, and would like to continue doing that in peace. i'm so glad that the documentary has been given its own section away from everything else on this board.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this "I don't think he's guilty or not guilty" stance at all. Anyone that has ever said that on this site ends up coming out with the fact that they indeed think he's guilty. You are allowed to have an opinion but please don't make it a "I'm not getting involved" situation as I know for a fact that you feel one way or the other.
 

83magic

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I'm sorry but I don't understand this "I don't think he's guilty or not guilty" stance at all. Anyone that has ever said that on this site ends up coming out with the fact that they indeed think he's guilty. You are allowed to have an opinion but please don't make it a "I'm not getting involved" situation as I know for a fact that you feel one way or the other.

so you're prejudging me based on the actions of others in the past? you know for a fact how I feel?? you're 'allowing' me to have an opinion??!!:rollin:
 

SmoothGangsta

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so you're prejudging me based on the actions of others in the past? you know for a fact how I feel?? you're 'allowing' me to have an opinion??!!:rollin:

I didn't say I was allowing you to have an opinion? I said you can have an opinion but to say you don't when you obviously do is a cop out imo. Yes I do think that you either think he is guilty or not guilty, to me saying "I don't think either" is just a way to stay out of a discussion in which people may disagree with you. Anyway I think I've said how I feel and will not be continuing this discussion any further.
 

83magic

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This is a safe place for people with unpopular opionions. However, it is also a safe place for people to DISAGREE with those unpopular opinions. Hopefully, all of us are mature enough to know that not everyone is going to AGREE with your opinion, just as you are not going to agree with my opionion of your statements.

this is a false illusion of freedom and blackmail. i'm free to 'voice my unpopular opinion' (in the 'unpopular opinions thread mind you) as long as i'm willing to suffer the endless anger and isolation that comes with it? as long as said opinions fall in line with everybody else's? why bother? how is this a safe space? like I said, I only responded to a quote after being away from this section for ages. I won't be back.
 

Frankyboy5

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Since the controversy I haven't wavered my opinion, but I am truly disappointed by the "stans" in the community who live up to the "toxic" label (as stated by a certain person who shall not be named). They're only feeding the trolls and bolstering those on the borderline to push to the other side. I think there's only so far you can go with pointing out loopholes or contradictions when they have already got the bases covered.

I haven't stopped listening to MJ but I find now is a good time to appreciate other genres of music as well.
 
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