I think we're at the stage where we may be doing more harm than good.

AG5050

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I suspect posting this may result in my being labelled a hater and calls for me to be banned. A simple review of my post history will show I am a long term fan and believe in Michaels innocence.

However I am becoming increasingly concerned by fans behaviour online and I fear although we are trying to help we may be doing more harm than good. If you look on places like Twitter, Reddit, Facebook etc, MJ fans come across as some crazed cult. I see so much miss-interrupted or blatantly false/incorrect information being thrown around trying to prove Michaels innocence. Spreading false information makes us no better than those we are trying to discredit and only works towards hurting our cause.

I also feel like by attacking every post/opinion/tiny little thing relating to LN we are just adding fuel to a fire that is already burning out.

No matter what we do or say the stigma of these allegations is always going to be attached to Michaels name, some will believe it, some won't. There is nothing we can do to change that, I just think we need to make peace with that and continue to celebrate his work and his music.

I would love to see fans take a step back from social media and allow the estate and Michaels close friends/family to continue to do what they are doing.

This is going to be an incredibly unpopular opinion but I don't think any of us can say with 100% certainty that these allegations are completely false, I believe them to be, but I cannot know for sure. I therefore do not think its right for us to be vehemently attacking those involved to the extent that we are.

I just wish everyone would chill out slightly and let this thing blow over, which it WILL do. Michael has not been 'cancelled' and he never will be. We cannot convince every living person that he is innocent.

Sorry if this upsets anyone but I wanted to say this.
 

magic

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I think we need to be smart, not hateful, emotional or hysterical if somebody calls us zombies or other names. Just stay on the point, on the facts. Not reply every bad comment, it may look crazy. For foreign fans translate the facts and stay on the point. Bam, fact, the pic as evidence, bam, another fact, the pic. Not to use "mockumentary" "those idiots" etc although that is how you feel. That all will seem you are a crazy fanatic for general pubic. When I wrote my article it was first meant for TV channel that showed the movie. I never call Michael as Jackson. Never. Always Michael or maybe in writing MJ for shortening. But in that article I said only Jackson cause for general public as calling him Michael is strange, and they would think that I am a crazy fan who doesn't know what she says cause Michael will always be innocent for those fanatics. But I don't think we need to back off. A fan from Finland wrote to me that situation in Finland is bad. Media is bad, the comments are bad. I don't think fans need to stop but spread it alone.

But I do agree that we need to consider what we think the fact is. We need to make sure that our facts can be proven by court documents, pictures, interviews, tweets from ppl from inner circle.
 

L.T.D

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I agree on the part about spreading false information. I saw someone on Twitter earlier trying to make out that Leaving Neverland says that the train station story happened in November 1987, because it says November 1987 in the film so everything said after that happened then.

The two dates are November 87 and January 1990, they are the bookends and everything mentioned between that is spread out over that time frame. I let this person know it wasnt the case but they ran with it anyway and people started retweeting it. The fact it labels it happening before Jan 1990 is already good enough.

People are still posting the Euro Disney thing as well. I strongly disagree about taking a step back though, if we had done that then nobody would of discovered something like the train station thing in the first place.
 
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Everyone should do what he/she feels is the right thing to do.
(This is something what Michael would say).
You should not try to tell anyone what is the right thing for him/ her to do in this situation.
Do what you wanna do and let the other people do what they wanna do!
When you want to stop fighting for MJ or read this forum for a while cause you feel this is the right thing for you to do noone will stop you.
But don't try to convince anyone that this will be also the right thing for him/ her to do.
I will continue to fight for justice, the truth and the one I deeply love and belive in his Innocence!
I don't like your post and can't understand your destination behind it!


I agree that it is not good when peole to spread false information.
We maybe need a homepage with a short summerys every fan should read or watch to have best knowlage.
 
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AG5050

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L.T.D;4253768 said:
I agree on the part about spreading false information. I saw someone on Twitter earlier trying to make out that Leaving Neverland says that the train station story happened in November 1987, because it says November 1987 in the film so everything said after that happened then.

The two dates are November 87 and January 1990, they are the bookends and everything mentioned between that is spread out over that time frame. I let this person know it wasnt the case but they ran with it anyway and people started retweeting it. The fact it labels it happening before Jan 1990 is already good enough.

People are still posting the Euro Disney thing as well. I strongly disagree about taking a step back though, if we had done that then nobody would of discovered something like the train station thing in the first place.
The examples you’ve given are the sort of things I see all the time and where my frustration has come from.

Maybe you are right about stepping back not being the right thing to do. I guess I am just at the stage where I am just exhausted with it all and maybe I should just take a step back myself but shouldn’t be telling others to do the same.
 

AG5050

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ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona;4253769 said:
Everyone should do what he/she feels is the right thing to do.
(This is something what Michel would say).
You should not try to tell anyone what is the right thing for him/ her to do in this situation.
Do what you wanna do and let the other people do what they wanna do!
When you want to stop fighting for MJ or read this forum for a while cause you feel this is the right thing for you to do noone will stop you.
But don't try to convince anyone that this will be also the right thing for him/ her to do.
I will continue to fight for justice, the truth and the one I deeply love and belive in his Innocence!
I don't like your post and can't understand your destination behind it!


I agree that it is not good when peole to spread false information.
We maybe need a homepage with a short summerys every fan should read or watch to have best knowlage.
That’s a fair point to make and I admit that maybe it’s not my place to be telling other fans what to do.
However my post comes from a concern that a lot of fans are making things worse and if I have that worry/opinion I have the right to express it.
 

Mashlie

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I suspect posting this may result in my being labelled a hater and calls for me to be banned. A simple review of my post history will show I am a long term fan and believe in Michaels innocence.

However I am becoming increasingly concerned by fans behaviour online and I fear although we are trying to help we may be doing more harm than good. If you look on places like Twitter, Reddit, Facebook etc, MJ fans come across as some crazed cult. I see so much miss-interrupted or blatantly false/incorrect information being thrown around trying to prove Michaels innocence. Spreading false information makes us no better than those we are trying to discredit and only works towards hurting our cause.

I also feel like by attacking every post/opinion/tiny little thing relating to LN we are just adding fuel to a fire that is already burning out.

No matter what we do or say the stigma of these allegations is always going to be attached to Michaels name, some will believe it, some won't. There is nothing we can do to change that, I just think we need to make peace with that and continue to celebrate his work and his music.

I would love to see fans take a step back from social media and allow the estate and Michaels close friends/family to continue to do what they are doing.

This is going to be an incredibly unpopular opinion but I don't think any of us can say with 100% certainty that these allegations are completely false, I believe them to be, but I cannot know for sure. I therefore do not think its right for us to be vehemently attacking those involved to the extent that we are.

I just wish everyone would chill out slightly and let this thing blow over, which it WILL do. Michael has not been 'cancelled' and he never will be. We cannot convince every living person that he is innocent.

Sorry if this upsets anyone but I wanted to say this.


I'm logging in today purely to support this. I'm a fan and collector of 30+ years and I have a slightly (maybe mature) different opinion on how this is all going down.

The crazy fan thing is in overdrive and given the current climate of MeToo and social media in general, it's very easy to be labeled as a crazy fan for just having an opinion. Let's just think about the posts/comments that we see about religion or politics...right now some of us are looking the same way.

There's so much I want to say on the subject because I feel the same but I won't sit here and rant, I've already deleted my reply twice.

This is a sensitive time on social media and whilst it's a great tool to spread a message etc, it can also turn on us very quickly. Right now, I feel that we the 'fan community' are keeping this crap alive. It means something to us and that's why we defend every little thing that comes up but for everyone else, this is getting to be old news. Think about it this way...how many of us are still religiously talking about Bill Cosby, R.Kelly or even Jussie Smollett? We move on once it's out of the headlines.

For those that are still 'hating' and posting comments online, I view this purely as bait. They want interaction, they want the back and forth arguments. The reality is, the proof they need is a few clicks away, so it's a joke to them. I saw some awful conversations last night on IG and think this argumentative phase my be generational...I don't know!

The fan community has done an absolutely awesome job in getting that message out and discrediting the film, I think our work is done to some extent and it's time to get back to just loving Mike the way we did. So what if a radio station wants to cancel him, so what if a clothing store removes his shirts from their racks, in the grand scheme of things, Mike is still Mike to US and I think we need to get that focus back.

By ramming MJ down people's throats, we look like the crazy ones. Personally speaking, I'm worried that the upcoming documentary is going to do more harm than good, the stuff that's been put out by fans recently doesn't get any clearer...but that's another story for another day.

Damn it...I've ranted again. I can't delete for a third time.
 

AG5050

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Mashlie;4253776 said:
I'm logging in today purely to support this. I'm a fan and collector of 30+ years and I have a slightly (maybe mature) different opinion on how this is all going down.

The crazy fan thing is in overdrive and given the current climate of MeToo and social media in general, it's very easy to be labeled as a crazy fan for just having an opinion. Let's just think about the posts/comments that we see about religion or politics...right now some of us are looking the same way.

There's so much I want to say on the subject because I feel the same but I won't sit here and rant, I've already deleted my reply twice.

This is a sensitive time on social media and whilst it's a great tool to spread a message etc, it can also turn on us very quickly. Right now, I feel that we the 'fan community' are keeping this crap alive. It means something to us and that's why we defend every little thing that comes up but for everyone else, this is getting to be old news. Think about it this way...how many of us are still religiously talking about Bill Cosby, R.Kelly or even Jussie Smollett? We move on once it's out of the headlines.

For those that are still 'hating' and posting comments online, I view this purely as bait. They want interaction, they want the back and forth arguments. The reality is, the proof they need is a few clicks away, so it's a joke to them. I saw some awful conversations last night on IG and think this argumentative phase my be generational...I don't know!

The fan community has done an absolutely awesome job in getting that message out and discrediting the film, I think our work is done to some extent and it's time to get back to just loving Mike the way we did. So what if a radio station wants to cancel him, so what if a clothing store removes his shirts from their racks, in the grand scheme of things, Mike is still Mike to US and I think we need to get that focus back.

By ramming MJ down people's throats, we look like the crazy ones. Personally speaking, I'm worried that the upcoming documentary is going to do more harm than good, the stuff that's been put out by fans recently doesn't get any clearer...but that's another story for another day.

Damn it...I've ranted again. I can't delete for a third time.

Thank you for this. I was genuinely a bit afraid of posting this here so it’s re-assuring to know there are like minded fans out there that feel the same way.
 

Anna

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I think some fans just need a bit more self-control and detachment. I mean there's no need to seek out and attack people who disagree with you on social media, just put the evidence out there where it's needed and then calmly answer questions if necessary. The more this mess is picked apart and the lies exposed in the media, the less likely it is that more scumbags will try something similar down the line. We have to make sure everything is analysed and counter what we can with provable truth, so that as many people as possible right now and in the future have a clear view of all the facts and why these allegations are BS.
We can't stop the damage, but we can help to influence how much is done. And I think that is extremely important and our duty as Michael's fans. This isn't just about us, in the present. It's about the perception of Michael and his legacy in the future and that is being shaped right now. This will blow over naturally soon, I would imagine.
 

AG5050

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Anna;4253779 said:
I think some fans just need a bit more self-control and detachment. I mean there's no need to seek out and attack people who disagree with you on social media, just put the evidence out there where it's needed and then calmly answer questions if necessary. The more this mess is picked apart and the lies exposed in the media, the less likely it is that more scumbags will try something similar down the line. We have to make sure everything is analysed and counter what we can with provable truth, so that as many people as possible right now and in the future have a clear view of all the facts and why these allegations are BS.
We can't stop the damage, but we can help to influence how much is done. And I think that is extremely important and our duty as Michael's fans. This isn't just about us, in the present. It's about the perception of Michael and his legacy in the future and that is being shaped right now. This will blow over naturally soon, I would imagine.

Agreed. I feel like it’s already blowing over. In fact I don’t think it’s even as big of a thing as we were worried it would be from the get go.
A lot of people I come across day to day haven’t even heard of the doc or seen it. I’m surprised by this but pleasantly so. I think as Michael fans it’s such a massive thing in our lives at the moment but to a lot of people they aren’t even aware of it or just simply don’t care enough to even take note.
I was really worried that I wouldn’t be able to publically listen to Michael of ‘openly’ be a fan anymore but it hasn’t been like that at all where I live (UK).
I don’t think the very vocal online minorities are a true representation of the public’s perception of Michael.
 

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AG5050;4253781 said:
Agreed. I feel like it’s already blowing over. In fact I don’t think it’s even as big of a thing as we were worried it would be from the get go.
A lot of people I come across day to day haven’t even heard of the doc or seen it. I’m surprised by this but pleasantly so. I think as Michael fans it’s such a massive thing in our lives at the moment but to a lot of people they aren’t even aware of it or just simply don’t care enough to even take note.
I was really worried that I wouldn’t be able to publically listen to Michael of ‘openly’ be a fan anymore but it hasn’t been like that at all where I live (UK).
I don’t think the very vocal online minorities are a true representation of the public’s perception of Michael.
Yeah, it always seems worse when you're in the middle of it. Ignorant and hateful people are often louder than the positive or neutral on social media, so it's hard to gauge the true wider public perception sometimes. I think we've weathered the storm well. We've got the facts out there and even got some of the media to report on it.

Maybe one day Jordan will come out and admit nothing happened and we can finally rest. That would be so nice.
 

83magic

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No matter what we do or say the stigma of these allegations is always going to be attached to Michaels name, some will believe it, some won't. There is nothing we can do to change that, I just think we need to make peace with that and continue to celebrate his work and his music.

this!

it's such a shame that topics about Michael's art are buried, whilst this ordeal is being dragged out day by day. I just want to celebrate Michael's expression. I don't want to get caught up in this cycle of misery:( all of the name calling and profanity is so unpleasant!

it *does* feel like a religion, where Michael is our flawless 'king', whose words and actions must be defended and explained at every cost. even though most of us have never met or spoken to him ( I know I haven't). there seems to be a mission to convert everyone, and blacklist those who oppose him as enemies. where is the joy? even before the documentary people were looking for a reason to be mad, by constantly bringing up other old controversies of his personal life. some just love to fight, and this current situation has given them that extra ammunition to do that. it's not healthy to have this level of attachment to a celebrity.

I've been enjoying michael's music and dance for decades, but i'm not married to him, and i'm not his lawyer. letting go of that side of things has made me feel so much lighter. in fact, i'll say it's helped me to enjoy his music even more! :) I know i'll never stop.
 

Arckangel

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AG5050 and magic, I agree that it's important to fact-check information we post and rectify errors. That said, from what I've seen, fans and supporters have mostly been posting factual information. Jermaine & Taj Jackson both conceded that Michael Jackson's fanbase is very well-versed in the sense that we do our research, we consult court documents, we know the details of each case, etc. A few mistakes on our part pale in comparison to the avalanche of half-truths and blatant lies printed in the media since even before the Chandler case.

Crazy cult? I don't think we need to worry about looking "crazy". You wanna see crazy? PM me and I'll link you to a Madonna fan forum where anybody that offers MJ the least support is called a pedophile apologist, not only by the members but by the mods as well! The thread is entitled 'Michael Jackson - Paedophile (Continued)' and reeks of craziness.

I was very respectful to all members, stated facts and provided sources. I was immediately cussed out of the forum (F*** O** PEDO APOLOGIST) and then suspended for one day, restricted from posting for four days, and I received a permanent warning point when I was not impolite nor disruptive in any way. The member that cussed at me was not punished at all, and a mod proceeded to call me an MJ pedophile apologist and wrote that all of us MJ supporters come across as unhinged lunatics. PM me, and I'll give you the link so you see the conversation for yourself!

Now, that's crazy! That's scary! lol I was like... "What a freak!" And then: "The mod is a freak too?!" They were calling Michael all sorts of names, saying he is evil to the core, wishing he rots in Hell (Heaven forbid!), describing the alleged abuse as described by ROBson & SafeCHECK (Michael anally raping them, masturbating to them, having them on all fours, etc.)... No discernment, just blindly believing all those allegations and all the tabloid junk they've read.


And such comments may be found elsewhere online, all sorts of disgusting and depraved comments. Now, I did refer to the Leaving Neverland stars as ROBson, SafeCHECK & Dan GREED, and I had a right to, just like they'd allow themselves to call MJ all sorts of insulting names. The same thing happened at another Madonna forum in year 2001. There was a thread entitled 'How Weird Is Michael Jackson'. They were all bashing him (and that was even before the Arvizo case). I politely joined the discussion and defended Michael only to be labelled a pedophile, a wack-job and to be told I needed to get shot in the head... Now, that's crazy! Especially since Madonna loves MJ and has always spoken nicely of him.

So no, I would not worry about us looking crazy. We have a right to be angry just like they feel their anger towards Michael and his defenders justified. If you want a text to look formal, you may refer to Michael Jackson as Jackson but referring to him as MJ or Michael will in no way make you look crazy!

Look... On some occasions, I'd defend MJ in a polite manner stating facts, and I'd be called a mega-fan or else when I was only a casual fan. Those types fail to do their research, their only research being them tabloids, but somehow, they feel more grounded in reality than those who actually did do their research and fully know those cases. Doesn't make much sense, does it?

They repeat the same lies (Michael settled the criminal case, it screams guilty, Jordan correctly described his private parts, child porn was found in his home, etc.), but call us crazy, obsessed or whatever when we present them with facts, court documents, and truthful articles. I would not take ANYTHING those types say personally. They may say anything they want, I don't care, nor should you. They are the crazy and the obsessed ones, obsessed with making of MJ a paedophile even though each case against him was thoroughly debunked and he was never found guilty in a court of law! MJ called them tabloid junkies for a reason.


Now, we're doing this work to salvage MJ's honour, help redeem his image and correct lies and half-truths that keep circulating, and that's commendable. Some of us may get angry, and that's totally commendable as well.

Follow SmoothEmJay #JusticeForMJ on Twitter. On some occasions, he'll "lose his patience" and tell it like is, and he's damn right to do so. Here's an example: https://twitter.com/roboemjay/status/1113574434433114115. He was damn right to put that tabloid in their place. People have shat all over MJ for decades, said the most vicious things about him, and if some fans choose to use the same language, then so be it.


I don't care about people thinking ill of us 'cause everything they say about us, we can say about them! No matter how polite and civilized we are, some haters will think ill of us anyway 'cause they've been brainwashed for 25 years to see MJ as a monstrous freak and child molester. One of those Madonna fans was like: "I pity them."—well, I pity them haters for they are pathetic!

If Madonna ever taught them one thing, it's to have the ability to think for themselves, and that's an ability they clearly lack. What's the point of joining a forum if all members must agree at 100% on everything? I'm not just referring to those fans but all them MJ haters online. And those celebrities that have recently bashed MJ are even more stupid in the sense they know better than anyone how the media (esp. the tabloid media) work, and they might be next! By giving false accusers so much credence, they are setting up their own downfall, and I applaud all those celebrities that stood up for Michael.


And I see no problem whatsoever with using the terms "mockumentary", "fraudumentary" or "those idiots" because that's the plain truth! It is NOT a documentary. A proper documentary is based on the truth, not lies and false allegations of child sex abuse, one of the most vicious crimes there is. People (incl. journalists) call MJ all sorts of names (incl. Sicko *****, etc.) so we should feel free to call them ROBson, SafeCHECK or whatever (depending on what's appropriate).

I feel no sympathy for them at all, and yes, we can be 100% sure Michael did NOT EVER commit child sex abuse just like all those tabloid junkies are 100% certain Michael did and keep fooling people into believing such calumny. Each single case against Michael was fully disproven, so we can be 100% sure he did not play w/ little boys' or teenagers' pee-pees or poop-holes as one hater put it. There is no logical reason to believe otherwise. And in the United States, according to the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments, one is innocent until proven guilty.

And since Michael passed away 10 years ago already, there will never ever be any evidence against him. The only evidence would be photos or videos, and photos and videos can be doctored (now more than ever before), and if such evidence existed, the FBI would have found it. Brace yourselves! Michael Jacobshagen said he has such videos in his possession, but he's lying, and if he has anything, it was faked!
 
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wednesday

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The problem is simply this: journalists and media at large are NOT doing their fuc*ing jobs! If they did, the fans didn't have to fight this battle to begin with.
 

Zireaelle

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I post a lot on a French music forum. And some people think Michael is a pedophile, and sometimes they're virulent. Thankfully many other members defend him.

But I feel like the haters make me bitter and angry all the time, I feel like it's an endless battle in which I have to convince everyone. I know that I should stop answering them or stop going on this forum for a while. Even though it's the minority. I'm starting to be what I don't want to be : virulent and clumsy.

I was "making fun" of James who was on the set of HIStory teaser after being raped in every single room of Neverland and after saying Michael got rid of him when he was around 14. And someone pretty much neutral I think, told me I should not speak like that if they're actual victims because Weinstein's victims were also taken in photo with him after the abuses. He said we need to chill on both sides but he only quoted my message.

I just thought it was unfair too because there are many "Michael Jackson the pedophile" jokes since the 90s and there were some jokes about that on the forum I'm talking about too. And I think it's bad too. It's unfair, even though I maybe shouldn't have said that.

God can't wait for it to be over.
I just hope we're right.
And I hope that these two people will admit everything so I don't have to argue anymore with haters.

I don't want to look like a dumb crazy fan.
 

AndrewNezha

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I have to say that I must agree. We all love MJ, and we love his music. But throwing that love into every Twitter or IG post related to these issues does distract from the real topics, and casts a shadow on MJ fans as devoted crazies in the eyes of a typical reader. By all means, enter all discussions related to MJ and especially relating to these allegations, but post constructive material to highlight the facts of the matters relating to the allegations... and keep the 'I 'heart' MJ stuff for the forum.
 

AndrewNezha

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Soooo true that its simply baffling. I have never ever soon such a situation in my life where the evidence is out there by the flood-load, but the media is ignoring much of it and sticking to a certain narrative. It's every shade of wrong.
 

Arckangel

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Once again... It's a pot-kettle situation, really! I agree that we need to fact-check and rectify errors, but I do not agree so much w/ the rest. As I've explained, no matter how polite, civilized, cool, calm, researched and sensical we are, we will always be "MJ pedophile apologists" to some (PM me, and I'll show you so you see for yourselves!).

According to some MJ haters I've recently encountered, ANY person that positively speaks of MJ and defends him against such false allegations is an "MJ pedophile apologist" and an "unhinged lunatic", no matter how polite, respectful and researched. That's rich coming from people who blindly believe anything they read in tabloids, will not fact-check, will not do any research, who blindly believe any alleged victim (even after their allegations were disproven) and put emotions above facts, logic and reason.

They say we're crazy? We got they're crazy! Paul McCartney, Barbra Streisand, John Legend, Jamie Lee Curtis, Oprah and so on all sound idiotic to me (I've decided to believe anything negative I read about them since they blindly believe calumnious lies about MJ). But Aaron Carter, Lara Fabian, Charlotte Gainsbourg, Mo'nique and so on do not! Unlike the former, you can tell they do their research and can think for themselves.


Aaron Carter: "If you talk bad to me about Michael Jackson I’ll literally punch you in your face. I’m just letting wade and this other kid talk I do have something to say though..." https://twitter.com/aaroncarter/status/1103757065737170948

Aaron Carter Says He Wants to Punch Wade Robson Over Michael Jackson Claims | TMZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8M-sORA6Dc

Did Aaron Carter worry about sounding crazy, fanatical, loony or obsessed? NO! So shan't we!


wednesday;4253800 said:
The problem is simply this: journalists and media at large are NOT doing their fuc*ing jobs! If they did, the fans didn't have to fight this battle to begin with.

THIS!!! They've been brainwashing people for 25 years+ with all their lies, gossip and nonsense, and have even paid former friends and employees big bucks to slander MJ in the worst ways possible. Even Oprah, one of the world's TOP journalists, could not be bothered to do any research (and it appears she was heavily involved in that coup).
 
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myosotis

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The problem with not challenging people (especially journalists and their followers) who promulgate lies, is that the lies become normalised in everyday language and culture.

Aziz Ansari (yes, him) had a comedy gig at Hammersmith Apollo earlier this week (in London, and incidentally at the same venue where the J5 played many years ago). Here is part of a review of his gig, from a non-tabloid paper:

' Ansari was strikingy astute elsewhere (eg) a hypothetical scenario in which Osama bin Laden released a seminal jazz album 20 years before 9/11, worked as a brilliantly ludicrous analogy for our collectively disparate reactions to recent historical child sex abuse allegations levelled at Michael Jackson.'

Most people view child sex abuse as either 'almost as bad as' or 'worse' than' child murder. (The latter because it wrecks the child's life, and potentially the lives of all around them, even including their future children). I am at a loss to know how it is possible for a fan to be 'uncertain' ('we can never know') about the fact of Michael's innocence of all allegations, given everything we know about the many years of investigation into the accusers, their motives and into Michael himself.

Personally, I could never feel 'uncertain' about the possibility that someone had committed a heinous crime, and still think or write supportively (in any way) about that person. Equally, and personally, I find it very hard to read people writing factual untruths without challenging them on those untruths, if it is clear that the person is not simply an online 'troll', taking amusement from baiting those holding the opposing viewpoint.
 

KOPV

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I think we as a whole are doing great work.. I'll say there are a select type of fans that don't help lol! You've seen them out their, the ones you act just like what 'they' make fun of.. the obsessive MJ is God type feeling.. Or that they don't care if it happened.. Or making stuff up in defense of Michael..

We have to come off like we are willing to listen (as long as they are too), objective, and speak knowlegable.. IF there is something over our heads, we should check back with each other to confirm some things before continueing the convo and making something up.

I've bugged yall several times in the middle of debates! lol
 

Arckangel

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What I see is vitriol from obsessed MJ haters.

Renee Johnson wrote: "That is all crap !!! Full of lies. MJ IS INNOCENT 100% I did all of the research on this crap and still feel that MJ IS 100% INNOCENT. THE PROOF IS THERE TO SEE." 97 people rightfully liked her comment.

Seamus Lannon then replied: "Prove Wade and James are lying they happen to be there when the events took place. You yourself Renee Johnson are just a brain dead w**** J**** thing."

Get Out, who agree w/ Johnson, wrote: "Yup. Can’t believe I ****en believed it."

Leaving Neverland: “Not getting caught was FUNDAMENTAL”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LfMU7AQ7E

You see! We are not the ones obsessed! The haters are!
 

AG5050

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You all makes some really good points. I certainly don't mean to group all fans under the same umbrella when I talk about spreading wrong information etc.

I think ultimately my main concern is simply that by continuing to engage, even if its done well and with the right information, that we are keeping this thing alive longer.

Someone made a good point about by not challenging it then it becomes normalised in our culture. This may be a negative or defeatist attitude but unfortunately I feel like the idea that Michael was a child abuser is always going to be normalised in our culture, it's just been too big of a thing since '93 to ever change that no matter how much good work we do.

The aftermath of LN has actually been significantly less-bad than I had worried it would be, which is something at least.
 

Arckangel

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AG5050;4253852 said:
Someone made a good point about by not challenging it then it becomes normalised in our culture. This may be a negative or defeatist attitude but unfortunately I feel like the idea that Michael was a child abuser is always going to be normalised in our culture, it's just been too big of a thing since '93 to ever change that no matter how much good work we do.

The media are very largely responsible for that stigma. See:

BUYING THEIR SILENCE Michael Jackson’s sister Latoya accuses James Safechuck’s parents of ‘soliciting’ their boy after seeing £1 million cheque written to them 25 years ago

By Mark Hodge
4th April 2019, 2:10 pmUpdated: 4th April 2019, 3:46 pm

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8790454/latoya-jackson-accuse-safechuck-parents-soliciting-cheque/

You see! lol I mean it's not funny at all but creepy as Hell! LaToya's old statements (made under duress she recanted a decade later) are now being rehashed in order to give Leaving Neverland some credibility (even after inconsistencies and lies were revealed).

The media put much emphasis on all those allegations and Michael's innocent sleepovers. TheSun.co.uk allowed Mike Smallcombe to share his recent findings, but they're still gonna go and slander Michael. There you go! We need to continue our work so people wake up and stop being so gullible.
 

Cinnamon234

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I think we as a whole are doing great work.. I'll say there are a select type of fans that don't help lol! You've seen them out their, the ones you act just like what 'they' make fun of.. the obsessive MJ is God type feeling.. Or that they don't care if it happened.. Or making stuff up in defense of Michael..

We have to come off like we are willing to listen (as long as they are too), objective, and speak knowlegable.. IF there is something over our heads, we should check back with each other to confirm some things before continueing the convo and making something up.

I've bugged yall several times in the middle of debates! lol

I agree! This whole thing would have been so much worse if fans weren't out there working tirelessly to debunk these allegations on social media, on YouTube, etc. I think the fans as a whole have been doing a great job.

The only thing in AG's original post I agree with is that we need to always fact check everything (i.e. the Euro Disney story which turned out to be false).

Other than that, I think the fans should keep doing what we're doing. I mean, look what happened with that Train station lie of Jimmy's. Some media have picked up on it and that's all thanks to fans being diligent and doing their research.

Of course you have a few crazies but fans have been doing more good than harm if you ask me.

Why do you think Dan Reed is having a meltdown these days? Because fans have been doing a good job debunking a lot of what was shown in the LN mockumentary.

As you said, we just have to make sure when it comes to debating these allegations we remain rational, be willing to be objective and use facts and logic when presenting our arguments in defense of Michael.

For the most part, we're doing a good job debunking and using facts. The haters are the ones making things up and calling people names and being nasty when one doesn't agree with them or brings up rational counter arguments.

I hope the fans keep doing what they're doing. I think it's helping.
 
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CaptainEoLove85

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Of course you can't convince everyone, which should be pretty obvious right away if they're willing to listen to the facts. Sadly it doesn't seem like many are willing to take the time to. Personally I don't engage with anyone, I just share what other fans post on twitter. They probably do a better job than I could anyway, and for the sake of my sanity I think it's better this way lol. The fans are awesome with all they've uncovered since this fiasco started. I think I got just one hater making a stupid joke comment on something I retweeted, and then when I looked the next day the comment disappeared, which was weird, but whatever.

But yeah, I think if you're going to engage with people there's a right and wrong to do it. Using personal attacks (haters love to use this when they don't have anything else) does not help. And attempting to appeal to people's hearts over minds like, "Michael was an angel, supported x amount of charities, he would never do such a thing," definitely doesn't help. And some fans do that, which I think they probably shouldn't defend Michael if they can't use facts to support their arguments. I don't think most fans are this way however.
 

WildStyle

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It's hard to police an entire fan community. There are always going to be those that make us look bad. Unfortunately we are not all sane, intelligent, level headed human beings, but that goes for the other side as well. That's just the way the world is. I agree that it gets annoying seeing things like fans trying to argue that every other picture is photoshopped when they clearly aren't and things of that nature. I believe even the "10 year FBI investigation" isn't entirely accurate. But all in all I think we should continue to look for lies and inconsistencies and not rest because for the most part we've done a great job of that so far.

I also don't agree we should sit back and leave it to the estate and the Jackson family. Other than the HBO letter the estate have not been strong enough and seem to be sitting back and letting the fans do most of the work as usual. Taj and Brandi are doing great, but they can't do it on their own and I've heard them say some inaccurate information also.
 
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You can never really know in which phase, how long someone is as an MJFan and if he is really is one or only someone who like to listen to his music sometimes and didn't know really much about him (or prefer to belive in the things the media wrote about him).
When you see someone posting on social media esspecially on youtube you can't know anything about this person even his/her age.
Something what is really special on Michael is that he strongly always reaches people of every nation and EVERY AGE!
So it is always very possible that people (or fans) from who you want to critisize a post or think he spred fals information is only 10 years old.
Keep all this always in you mind.
People who really love Michael will always do what is the best for him they can do personally.
And when they show and express their love for him let them do this.
That MJ is able to always cause this deep rare feeling in people million of times even 10 years after he is gone speaks for him and his true pure unqiue soul people can feel when they listen to him.
A evil childmolester with a dark , sick aura could never cause love in people.
This is a hidden fact and a hidden truth and this unbeatable strong love is the main reson why there is this strong defense for MJ!
No other celebretie would have this when LN would be about him.

That people love someone and express it should never be viewed as something crazy cause it is a natural and an important god given thing which keeps the world together and in tact.
People who label the love for MJ as crazy are mostly jelous.
Its great that so maaaaany people still have the courage to express their love for MJ publically.
 
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hrp102

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I agree as well. It's always more useful to focus on music/performances as well as humanitarian efforts. Engaging with the negative stories only highlights them.



I suspect posting this may result in my being labelled a hater and calls for me to be banned. A simple review of my post history will show I am a long term fan and believe in Michaels innocence.

However I am becoming increasingly concerned by fans behaviour online and I fear although we are trying to help we may be doing more harm than good. If you look on places like Twitter, Reddit, Facebook etc, MJ fans come across as some crazed cult. I see so much miss-interrupted or blatantly false/incorrect information being thrown around trying to prove Michaels innocence. Spreading false information makes us no better than those we are trying to discredit and only works towards hurting our cause.

I also feel like by attacking every post/opinion/tiny little thing relating to LN we are just adding fuel to a fire that is already burning out.

No matter what we do or say the stigma of these allegations is always going to be attached to Michaels name, some will believe it, some won't. There is nothing we can do to change that, I just think we need to make peace with that and continue to celebrate his work and his music.

I would love to see fans take a step back from social media and allow the estate and Michaels close friends/family to continue to do what they are doing.

This is going to be an incredibly unpopular opinion but I don't think any of us can say with 100% certainty that these allegations are completely false, I believe them to be, but I cannot know for sure. I therefore do not think its right for us to be vehemently attacking those involved to the extent that we are.

I just wish everyone would chill out slightly and let this thing blow over, which it WILL do. Michael has not been 'cancelled' and he never will be. We cannot convince every living person that he is innocent.

Sorry if this upsets anyone but I wanted to say this.
 

SoS

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While I was agreeing with your post up until the, nobody can say for sure these allegations are false, part.

What do you mean by that since this entire flawed premise for extorting Mike has never ever been about the truthful or falsness of that at all.

Its only all ways been about humiliating and dessicrating Michael Jackson’s name and public acceptance...

so ... so again I ask:

just what the Sam Hill do you mean by saying something like that?

I really need clarity here otherwise, your outlook is an underminer of the restoration of truth and I believe you when you say you have supported MJ’s innocence, so if you please, explain yourself...thanks
 

AG5050

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SoS;4254034 said:
While I was agreeing with your post up until the, nobody can say for sure these allegations are false, part.

What do you mean by that since this entire flawed premise for extorting Mike has never ever been about the truthful or falsness of that at all.

Its only all ways been about humiliating and dessicrating Michael Jackson’s name and public acceptance...

so ... so again I ask:

just what the Sam Hill do you mean by saying something like that?

I really need clarity here otherwise, your outlook is an underminer of the restoration of truth and I believe you when you say you have supported MJ’s innocence, so if you please, explain yourself...thanks
I don’t need to explain myself to prove that I support Michael. I believe my post history on this forum would already prove that. But given that you’ve asked for clarity:

I didn’t know Michael, I don’t know Wade, I don’t know James, I don’t know the Chandlers, I don’t know the Arvisos etc etc. I don’t feel I can say with 100% conviction that Michael never did anything inappropriate with one of his accusers.
Do I believe he did, no I do not. Does most of the information I have available to me lead me to the conclusion that Michael is innocent? Yes it does. But I do not believe that myself or any other fan can say with 100% certainty that we are right. That is why I don’t believe we should personally attack people online.
Spreading facts and correct information is great. Personally attacking Wade, James, Dan or anyone or calling them names etc I do not agree with, no matter what we believe.
 
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