Invincible or Heartbreaker?

Which is better?


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mj_frenzy

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Gonetoosoon;3426936 said:
These two songs are very underrated from the Invincible album and were Michael's attempt to experiment with a new modern sound with an industrial pop edge. Unbreakable undoubtedly was his best effort, and is one of the strongest, if not the strongest track on Invincible. But the other two tracks are rarely talked about.

Which of these lesser discussed tracks is better?

Invincible or Heartbreaker?

:ph34r:

Actually, Michael Jackson wanted a sound similar to that of the ‘Superthug’ song by the American rapper N.O.R.E., which was produced by The Neptunes and it came out in 1998.

Michael Jackson was literally in love with the sound of the ‘Superthug’ song.

He played that song to Rodney Jerkins and to his team (Jerkins III, LaShawn Daniels, etc), and he asked from them to create a similar sound (for his upcoming album).

As for your question, the ‘Invincible’ song is not a good song overall, and that is why most fans took an instant dislike to it when they first heard it.

It is boring, repetitive, unexciting, uninspired and additionally it has very weak Michael Jackson’s vocals on it.

Comparatively, ‘Heartbreaker’ is a better song, but it also has its issues (for example, towards its end includes some very unnecessary, cheap sounds as if they were taken from an arcade video game).
 

czechstar

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I can't honestly decide.

I think my issue is they are quite similar and both at the front of the album.

Some great vocals and melodies somewhat destroyed by over production.

Off The Wall still sounds so fresh because of the instrumentation used.

I think Invincible is an album where MJ over-relied on producers but I don't want to criticise as it was MJ's vision.

I'd love to hear some reimagined and remixed versions of the Invincible tracks because I think once freed of the overproduction, some tracks are up there with some of his greats.


...
In the end, I chose Heartbreaker.
 

Electro

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From these two I prefer Heartbreaker.
Certainly no "Dubstep" as some try to claim, but it's a nice complex production.

Invincible I would prefer over Unbreakable.





mj_frenzy;4290180 said:
...most fans took an instant dislike to it when they first heard it.

Speak for yourself!

mj_frenzy;4290180 said:
Actually, Michael Jackson wanted a sound similar to that of the ‘Superthug’ song by the American rapper N.O.R.E., which was produced by The Neptunes and it came out in 1998.

Michael Jackson was literally in love with the sound of the ‘Superthug’ song.

He played that song to Rodney Jerkins and to his team (Jerkins III, LaShawn Daniels, etc), and he asked from them to create a similar sound (for his upcoming album).

No shame about being deaf, but just stop making things up, ok?

Superthug is a nice beat, the typical cookie-cutter-Neptunes-production style of that time, but nothing on Invincible sounds like that.
Not in sound design, not in flow nor regarding the overall minimalistic composition concept.

Read Damien Shields book that collects a lot of interviews and quotes from Rodney and people involved in their collaboration. In the beginning Michael almost dismissed him as a producer because he sounded like everyone else at the time. Why would he ask Rodney to make a Neptunes sounding beat? If Michael had wanted the trademark Neptunes style sound, he could have gotten the original (see Pharells MJ stories). But Michael wanted "a new Michael sound" from Rodney.
 
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dethorro

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From these two I prefer Heartbreaker.
Certainly no "Dubstep" as some try to claim, but it's a nice complex production.

Invincible I would prefer over Unbreakable.







Speak for yourself!



No shame about being deaf, but just stop making things up, ok?

Superthug is a nice beat, the typical cookie-cutter-Neptunes-production style of that time, but nothing on Invincible sounds like that.
Not in sound design, not in flow nor regarding the overall minimalistic composition concept.

Read Damien Shields book that collects a lot of interviews and quotes from Rodney and people involved in their collaboration. In the beginning Michael almost dismissed him as a producer because he sounded like everyone else at the time. Why would he ask Rodney to make a Neptunes sounding beat? If Michael had wanted the trademark Neptunes style sound, he could have gotten the original (see Pharells MJ stories). But Michael wanted "a new Michael sound" from Rodney.


I agree!

The Neptunes were great, no doubt. I love what they did on Justin Timberlake's album Justified and I love the MJ vibe.

However, Michael didn't want to record Rock Your Body because he wanted a completely new sound. Even Rodney Jerkins said that the beats he made that Michael didn't like, sounded like something off Off The Wall.
 

wonderouzmj

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Heartbreaker and it's not even close. Heartbreaker is an absolute masterpiece. It has nice production, amazing beat and solid lyrics. The only thing Invincible does better is the rap. I think the rap by Fats on Heartbreaker was very underwhelming and boring, whereas Fats' rap on Invincible is pretty good. But other than the rap part, I always though Invincible was a very underwhelming song and a weak title track.

Heartbreaker is amazing and it's a shame that it was never released as single, because it deserves way more recognition. I think only the hardcore fans are aware of Heartbreaker's existence and that is such a shame. :cry:
Who is fats anyway? I never heard of him before or after invincible & that always irritated tf outta me. 2 many known rappers could've took that spot
 

Hess

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Heartbreaker - today at least. - Maybe next week Invincible might be my choice.
 

Dani

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Heartbreaker, because Michael's beatboxing is amazing!
 

Nite Line

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Who is fats anyway? I never heard of him before or after invincible & that always irritated tf outta me. 2 many known rappers could've took that spot

Neither have I. Michael could have used some of the biggest rappers of that time like Nelly or Diddy. That would have given Invincible more recognition in my opinion.
 

wonderouzmj

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Neither have I. Michael could have used some of the biggest rappers of that time like Nelly or Diddy. That would have given Invincible more recognition in my opinion.
I agree 100%. Now I'm headed to Google this "fats"
 

NatureCriminal7896

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I heard heartbreaker the other day after a while. and it's sounds so 2000's. also i didn't know Michael beatboxed on it. i need to listren to Invincible again to make my final choice.

Michael wasn't good at finding rappers. like other said, Michael should got nelly or any other rapper during the time. heck even rapped himself. he was pretty good with it.
 

Jackson Rules

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To me they sounds quite similar to each other... Anyway I vote for Heartbreaker, especially for the chorus
 

Krishendo

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this a toss up cus it's so close. It changes by the day but right now invincible my song
 

AlwaysThere

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"Heartbreaker," no question. Stellar production, excellent vocals and vocal harmonies, an incredible bridge, and the superior of the two Fats features. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it's definitely in the upper echelons of the Invincible track listing.

Who is fats anyway? I never heard of him before or after invincible & that always irritated tf outta me. 2 many known rappers could've took that spot

In 1999, Rodney Jerkins was vouching for a number of up-and-coming artists with Sony Music, one of whom was Fats. Rodney threw him on a number of tracks/remixes between 2001 and 2002 (e.g., So Plush's "What You Do to Me," Rhona's "Satisfied [Another Darkchild Remix]"), none of which attracted any public or critical attention.

When MJ requested an unknown rapper for "Heartbreaker" circa summer 1999, Rodney submitted Fats. According to Mike Smallcombe, MJ was so impressed by the contribution that he invited Fats to contribute to one or two other tracks.

Fats was signed to Rodney's record label, Darkchild Entertainment, up until it shuttered in 2006. From there he started his own independent venture, dropped a collaborative album with fellow up-and-comer Bathgate (Split Decision, 2006), and effectively faded into obscurity.

I've always suspected his real name to be Norman Gregg, since that name is credited on both "Heartbreaker" and "Invincible" and is borderline non-existent anywhere else on the Internet, but I recall being told that that's incorrect. So, who knows?
 

Themidwestcowboy

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"Heartbreaker," no question. Stellar production, excellent vocals and vocal harmonies, an incredible bridge, and the superior of the two Fats features. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but it's definitely in the upper echelons of the Invincible track listing.



In 1999, Rodney Jerkins was vouching for a number of up-and-coming artists with Sony Music, one of whom was Fats. Rodney threw him on a number of tracks/remixes between 2001 and 2002 (e.g., So Plush's "What You Do to Me," Rhona's "Satisfied [Another Darkchild Remix]"), none of which attracted any public or critical attention.

When MJ requested an unknown rapper for "Heartbreaker" circa summer 1999, Rodney submitted Fats. According to Mike Smallcombe, MJ was so impressed by the contribution that he invited Fats to contribute to one or two other tracks.

Fats was signed to Rodney's record label, Darkchild Entertainment, up until it shuttered in 2006. From there he started his own independent venture, dropped a collaborative album with fellow up-and-comer Bathgate (Split Decision, 2006), and effectively faded into obscurity.

I've always suspected his real name to be Norman Gregg, since that name is credited on both "Heartbreaker" and "Invincible" and is borderline non-existent anywhere else on the Internet, but I recall being told that that's incorrect. So, who knows?

Isin't there also a rumor that Fats rapped on the reworked version of Cheater?
 

mj_frenzy

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AlwaysThere;4290659 said:
I've always suspected his real name to be Norman Gregg, since that name is credited on both "Heartbreaker" and "Invincible" and is borderline non-existent anywhere else on the Internet, but I recall being told that that's incorrect. So, who knows?

There is also the ‘On The Wall’ song from the ‘Honey’ dance film (released in 2003, with Jessica Alba).

The credits (taken from that film’s soundtrack) on the ‘On The Wall’ song state that this song was written by Rodney Jerkins and Norman Gregg and the song was performed by Fats.

Also, in the ‘Kick It’ song (outtake from ‘Invincible’), Norman Gregg is credited as a co-writer.

In the re-worked version of the ‘Chicago 1945’ song (outtake from ‘Invincible’), Norman Gregg is credited as a co-writer.

In the re-worked version of the ‘Cheater’ song (outtake from ‘Invincible’), Fats is credited as a co-writer.

These things suggest that Norman Gregg and Fats are two different persons.
 

Electro

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Could still be the same person.
Credits often have mistakes. In the reworked 'Cheater' it could be a mixup of his producer name and performance alias (nick name?) by whoever put the credits together.
 
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DuranDuran

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Electro;4290732 said:
Credits often have mistakes.
Also artists have used fake names when working on other acts music so they don't have to bother about getting permission from their label or don't want the public to know about it. Sometimes they just decline to be credited altogether.

Dr. Winston O'Boogie (John Lennon)
L’Angelo Mysterioso, P. Roducer, Nelson Wilbury, Jai Raj Harrison, George O'Hara-Smith Singers (George Harrison)
El Toro Negro (Stevie Wonder)
Dawili Gonga (George Duke)
The Beat Brothers (The Beatles)
Cleo Henry (Miles Davis)
Klark Kent (Stewart Copeland)
Apollo C. Vermouth, The Fireman, Paul Ramon, Percy Thrillington, Bernard E. Webb (Paul McCartney)
Alexander Nevermind, Jamie Starr, Joey Coco, Camille (Prince)
Chris Gaines (Garth Brooks)
Ann Orson (Elton John)
Nanker Phelge (Rolling Stones)
Angela Dust (Boy George)
Texas Slim, The Boogie Man, Johnny Williams, Birmingham Sam (John Lee Hooker)
Nathanial Hörnblowér (MCA from Beastie Boys)

With songwriting credits people have added names of family members or friends to help them out financially. Some bands credit everybody in the group, even if a particular member wrote anything or not. Many Lennon/McCartney songs were written separately. The heads of record labels or managers have added their names to credits without the real writers knowing about it until after the record comes out. That was more common when the mafia was behind the scenes in show business.
 

Snek

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Heartbreaker any day. That chorus is so good.
 
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