I’ve had it with the estate!!!

elusive moonwalker

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That's not an excuse. Music should be about art, not money!
Its not an excuse its just the realiity of it. Releasing a few demos etc isnt going to make them 100's of millions. Thats probably how they see it. Of course striking a balance would be good but they are top business people and success to them comes in the form of $ signs
 

SmoothGangsta

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My comments about the charts were in response to someone saying that other Estates are not jealous of the MJ Estate, nor of how well Michael's legacy is doing. I was saying that they are jealous and they should be jealous, too. My comments are also relevant, in the context that the Estate doesn't need to release everything but the kitchen sink (like the Prince Estate is doing), considering how all that MJ created and released in his lifetime is doing FAR better than every other legacy artist (including Prince) and better than many living artists as well.

I very much doubt the Prince estate are so bored that they are analysing what the MJ estate are doing (which isn't much). A weird world when there's people arguing that getting more content is a bad thing just to defend The Estate.
 

Korgnex

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Making a profit - option #1:
The movie, TV and game industry regularly issues remasters, remakes and reboots. Why? Because it's easier than taking the risk with material you don't know if it will have an audience big enough.
People are complaining about it and want more fresh original works.

Making a profit - option #2:
The Estate of Prince is constantly issuing unreleased material because that works for them to make a profit. There's not a big buzz about Prince besides these releases. There are no big deals to make much money when it comes to Prince.

Making a profit - option #3:
The MJ estate has some very lucrative deals with the brand "MJ" that make use of his image, likeliness and his overall popularity in the pop culture. MJ has been a phenomen like no other in the industry. His back catalogue alone with the help of new monetization models (digital streaming royalties) make sure there's a huge profit each year. Now they have very, very little incentive to release unreleased music - because it simply isn't what gets them the big $$ these days. And video restoration is even more risky because a) physical market is pretty low, b) piracy is very high and c) you don't get a lucrative deal with Netflix, Amazon or any big online distributor just for some old music videos. In other words: a) it doesn't get them millions of subsribers to paid services, b) it will be instantly pirated and c) noone would pay the MJ estate enough for it. And what would be "enough"? When it comes to "MJ" - unlike with other artists - (almost) every single person involved with the music videos who has a say on material or rights just wants big $$$ for this and that. Additionally, the later videos' F/X would all have to be re-done from scratch because they were edited on video tape which was the norm back then. What else is there? Material with companies like Pepsi and Disney who have no interest to get involved with the brand "MJ" because of his damaged reputation due to false allegations that have become again a "freshly" talked about topic - thanks to Dan Reed, another scam artist - just like Trump's successful lies that dominate world news. "Moonwalker" is the only one thing that's out. "Thriller" will come some day, "Ghosts" is still too unpopular and with too many legal issues to become a reality anytime soon.
 

Nite Line

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Funny I was on Prince.org the other day and some Prince fans weren’t happy with the Prince Estate, so this notion that fans of Prince are super happy with his estate isn’t true.

Also, Prince’s estate don’t have to deal with legal troubles that the MJ Estate have had to deal with. I am confident that if Leaving Neverland didn’t happen, we would have got some new music in the last 3 years.

I don’t get annoyed by the lack of releases, because Michael’s estate are a reflection of Michael himself, when it comes to releases. Michael used to take his sweet time between albums. 5 years between Thriller and Bad. 6 years between History and Invincible. No new release in the last 8 years of his life.

On the other hand, Prince’s estate are a reflection of Prince. They release new material every year just like Prince used to.

I think people need to chill and enjoy the music that Michael released in his lifetime. They are many dead artists whose fans are never blessed with any posthumous music. We have had over 20 unreleased songs released posthumously, so I think MJ fans are quite lucky. Eventually, one day the well will dry out and people need to remember that.
 

AlwaysThere

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If posthumous projects had any influence on anything, Prince would at the very least equal MJ in annual sales (he’s nowhere close) and streaming numbers (he trails by 18mil monthly listeners and 400+ ranking points on Spotify). And yet, every project his estate has released has faded into irrelevancy within days of its debut, and none ever find themselves re-charting. Same with everything the MJE has done. Why is that? Perhaps because posthumous projects exists solely to satiate a fan base, and are a privilege, not a necessity?

Furthermore, despite being deluged with material over the past few years, Prince fans are far from happy with his estate. Why is that? Perhaps because the “stan” mentality tends to permeate every fan base, and MJ and Prince fans are often just as bad as Beyoncé and Bieber fans?

That’s all I’ll say about that.
 

SmoothGangsta

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I don't understand why people keep comparing MJ and Prince's stream numbers when it doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Seems like there's a "MJ is better than prince" thing going on when that's not even what the thread is about.

On the topic of unreleased songs, that was addressed in the OP. The estate do not need to use totally unheard music to release stuff, all it takes is a bit of creativity to make a nice product without using too much stuff. Although I agree that with the OP that they are uninspired so something like that from them is rather unlikely.
 
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AlwaysThere

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I’m not comparing MJ v. Prince here; that would be as nonsensical as comparing their estate’s. I’m just saying that most people’s benchmark for an estate’s success seems to be how often they release new material, not how they contribute to the artist’s longevity. If that were true, you’d think all these new products would be boosting Prince’s numbers astronomically. But they aren’t, because posthumous projects are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. (Plus, MJ fans and Prince fans are, in my experience, aggressively nit picky about everything, so the idea that they could put together a “nice product” that wouldn’t be ripped apart in some medium is ridiculous.)

Nobody’s saying the MJE hasn’t infamously dropped the ball before. It’s just so exhausting seeing post after post that consists of, “Look at what the Prince Estate is doing! The MJE sucks because they aren’t doing the same stuff!”
 

Mikky Dee

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Of course its not going to be up to MJ so-called "level"(which I really don't like those comparisons) But nobody cares about stats and streams, in the end, we care about the MUSIC. Stats, Charts, and Streams does not equal musical talent, musicianship, or musical legacy.
People always say they don't like these comparisons when it's their fave that comes off second best. Charts, streams, positions, polls, lists.....they all absolutely do matter and they ARE about the MUSIC. What else would they be about?? Especially when the man has been gone for 12 years and crucified in the media for decades. People are listening, watching and downloading in their droves....still today.....because of the TALENT of Michael Jackson and THAT equals legacy. I acknowledge Prince and his talents in his own lane, but he never was anywhere near Michael on any level. The Prince Estate can release whatever, but none of it will measure up to what we already have from Michael himself and what has been achieved since 2009, on a business level.
 

Mikky Dee

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I’m not comparing MJ v. Prince here; that would be as nonsensical as comparing their estate’s. I’m just saying that most people’s benchmark for an estate’s success seems to be how often they release new material, not how they contribute to the artist’s longevity. If that were true, you’d think all these new products would be boosting Prince’s numbers astronomically. But they aren’t, because posthumous projects are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. (Plus, MJ fans and Prince fans are, in my experience, aggressively nit picky about everything, so the idea that they could put together a “nice product” that wouldn’t be ripped apart in some medium is ridiculous.)

Nobody’s saying the MJE hasn’t infamously dropped the ball before. It’s just so exhausting seeing post after post that consists of, “Look at what the Prince Estate is doing! The MJE sucks because they aren’t doing the same stuff!”

ALL. OF. THIS.

Most threads that mention what the Prince Estate is doing, in comparison to what the MJ Estate is doing, are going to end up being a Prince v/s MJ discussion/debate, in some way or another. It's the nature of the beast.

😁
 

Mikky Dee

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The delusion and arrogance from that Estate message was painful to read.
I agree that it was arrogant and prideful and of course, not well-received by some sections of the fan community. It was edited later, to reflect a more humble stance, but I still think the essence of the message was based in truth. Michael was always proud of his achievements, but he stated the truth in a humble and unassuming way. Being able to do that in just the right measure is a gift, for sure.
 

femi

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People always say they don't like these comparisons when it's their fave that comes off second best. Charts, streams, positions, polls, lists.....they all absolutely do matter and they ARE about the MUSIC. What else would they be about?? Especially when the man has been gone for 12 years and crucified in the media for decades. People are listening, watching and downloading in their droves....still today.....because of the TALENT of Michael Jackson and THAT equals legacy. I acknowledge Prince and his talents in his own lane, but he never was anywhere near Michael on any level. The Prince Estate can release whatever, but none of it will measure up to what we already have from Michael himself and what has been achieved since 2009, on a business level.
I never like those comparisons between Prince and Michael Jackson. This has nothing to with second best, or first best in terms of it. He wasn't really focused on being on Mike's level. All he did was create music, and have a fun time. As well as for Mike, to have fun, and to bring people together. They are two different artists. Michael Jackson and Prince are on their own level to me. They both got to their level on their own, Mike didn't need Prince's help at all. And Prince didn't need Mikes help to get where he was. It's a shame how people have to compare these greats. Mike was his own. And Prince was his own. But I understand where your coming from a little bit.
 

Mikky Dee

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I very much doubt the Prince estate are so bored that they are analysing what the MJ estate are doing (which isn't much). A weird world when there's people arguing that getting more content is a bad thing just to defend The Estate.

Hmmm.....I think you are extrapolating too much from what has been said by others. I don't think anyone said that getting more content is a "bad thing" - I said that I don't think it's necessary. For many fans, what Michael left us is enough. I also think that Estates shouldn't be judged and/or compared with each other, based on releases of content.....that yardstick is extremely subjective and no two artists are alike.
 

Mikky Dee

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Funny I was on Prince.org the other day and some Prince fans weren’t happy with the Prince Estate, so this notion that fans of Prince are super happy with his estate isn’t true.

Also, Prince’s estate don’t have to deal with legal troubles that the MJ Estate have had to deal with. I am confident that if Leaving Neverland didn’t happen, we would have got some new music in the last 3 years.

I don’t get annoyed by the lack of releases, because Michael’s estate are a reflection of Michael himself, when it comes to releases. Michael used to take his sweet time between albums. 5 years between Thriller and Bad. 6 years between History and Invincible. No new release in the last 8 years of his life.

On the other hand, Prince’s estate are a reflection of Prince. They release new material every year just like Prince used to.

I think people need to chill and enjoy the music that Michael released in his lifetime. They are many dead artists whose fans are never blessed with any posthumous music. We have had over 20 unreleased songs released posthumously, so I think MJ fans are quite lucky. Eventually, one day the well will dry out and people need to remember that.

Excellent points. You pretty much said what I've been trying to say, except you said it better.
 

Mikky Dee

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If posthumous projects had any influence on anything, Prince would at the very least equal MJ in annual sales (he’s nowhere close) and streaming numbers (he trails by 18mil monthly listeners and 400+ ranking points on Spotify). And yet, every project his estate has released has faded into irrelevancy within days of its debut, and none ever find themselves re-charting. Same with everything the MJE has done. Why is that? Perhaps because posthumous projects exists solely to satiate a fan base, and are a privilege, not a necessity?

Furthermore, despite being deluged with material over the past few years, Prince fans are far from happy with his estate. Why is that? Perhaps because the “stan” mentality tends to permeate every fan base, and MJ and Prince fans are often just as bad as Beyoncé and Bieber fans?

That’s all I’ll say about that.
Some factions of fans communities think they own the artist and can dictate what they do, via pressure. Once the artist passes away, this same pressure is applied to the artist's Estate. It's a strange phenomenon, known as entitlement. IMO.
 

Antwort

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Some factions of fans communities think they own the artist and can dictate what they do, via pressure. Once the artist passes away, this same pressure is applied to the artist's Estate. It's a strange phenomenon, known as entitlement. IMO.
It's not just your opinion, MD; it is also mine. Matter of fact, I couldn't agree more, even if I tried.
Furthermore, despite being deluged with material over the past few years, Prince fans are far from happy with his estate. Why is that? Perhaps because the “stan” mentality tends to permeate every fan base, and MJ and Prince fans are often just as bad as Beyoncé and Bieber fans?

That’s all I’ll say about that.
And on that note, I'll just pretend I didn't read the above and just move on......
I never like those comparisons between Prince and Michael Jackson. This has nothing to with second best, or first best in terms of it. He wasn't really focused on being on Mike's level. All he did was create music, and have a fun time. As well as for Mike, to have fun, and to bring people together. They are two different artists. Michael Jackson and Prince are on their own level to me. They both got to their level on their own, Mike didn't need Prince's help at all. And Prince didn't need Mikes help to get where he was. It's a shame how people have to compare these greats. Mike was his own. And Prince was his own. But I understand where your coming from a little bit.
Absolutely. They are indeed different artists, who respected each other greatly. They had different approaches and they were both amazing, in their own right. Back in the day, I was a semi-avid prince.org lurker, but I haven't read it in ages. I'm so far behind with Prince news, that the 'newest' song for me is Deliverance, released in 2017. I still very much regret that I didn't get to see him perform. Ich bin ein Berliner and I was supposed to see him there, but he cancelled the show.
The key is to never expect anything at all from the estate to begin with. Your hopes can't be let down if you have no expectations in the first place
😅😆🤣 No truer words have been spoken - in this thread & plenty o' others also 😉
 
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AlwaysThere

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Yeah. The This Is It anniversary box set did great numbers alright.
This Is It (2009)? The Ubisoft video game? Michael? Xscape? Irrelevant. One well-designed but horrifically overpriced box set that received no promotion due to the fact that it was released during arguably the worst year of MJ’s career? That’s the litmus test for success!

Also, I’m confused. Mikky said that most posthumous Prince projects have flown under the radar, and that his Estate isn’t nearly as beloved as this forum would lead you to believe, and your response is, “The TII box set flopped.” What does that have to do with anything?
 
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innuendo141

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This Is It (2009)? The Ubisoft video game? Michael? Xscape? Irrelevant. One well-designed but horrifically overpriced box set that received no promotion due to the fact that it was released during arguably the worst year of MJ’s career? That’s the litmus test for success!

Also, I’m confused. Mikky said that most posthumous Prince projects have flown under the radar, and that his Estate isn’t nearly as beloved as this forum would lead you to believe, and your response is, “The TII box set flopped.” What does that have to do with anything?
The quote of Mikki Dee's I originally responded to was that all the the Prince releases so far "All of it is trash and not needed. Even the Prince fans aren't buying any of that" (seen on first page.) This is what I was referring to as nonsense. I then responded with an example of a posthumous Michael Jackson release, which did not sell 1000 copies. Referencing the (expected) failure of TII was in response to the ridiculous statement of Dee's that all of the Prince stuff was "trash and not needed" when in reality, the TII box set was literally that. Done with that now.

Who knows, maybe in 50 years we will get new re-mixes like Sgt Peppers, The White Album, Abbey Road and Let It Be have gotten?

Bad re-re-re-release with chalk maybe? Featuring new remixes of the Pit-Bull tracks to contemporise the 2012 versions?

There are fake Michael Jackson songs on Michael that are defended to this day by the Estate. This alone means that the Estate are a septic tank IMO.
 
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AlwaysThere

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The quote of Mikki Dee's I originally responded to was that all the the Prince releases so far "All of it is trash and not needed. Even the Prince fans aren't buying any of that" (seen on first page.) This is what I was referring to as nonsense. I then responded with an example of a posthumous Michael Jackson release, which did not sell 1000 copies. Referencing the (expected) failure of TII was in response to the ridiculous statement of Dee's that all of the Prince stuff was "trash and not needed" when in reality, the TII box set was literally that. Done with that now.

Who knows, maybe in 50 years we will get new re-mixes like Sgt Peppers, The White Album, Abbey Road and Let It Be have gotten?

Bad re-re-re-release with chalk maybe? Featuring new remixes of the Pit-Bull tracks to contemporise the 2012 versions?

There are fake Michael Jackson songs on Michael that are defended to this day by the Estate. This alone means that the Estate are a septic tank IMO.
Did Mikky ever say that the This Is It box set was anything special? Not that I've seen. Referencing its low sales numbers as some sort of "gotcha" response to calling out the Prince Estate's poor commercial performance is whataboutism, pure and simple.

(Side bar: earlier in this thread, some people insisted that the Estate was capable of putting together a nice project without the use of unreleased/unseen material. I would argue that, other than its ludicrous price, the TII box set is exactly that. Interesting packaging, a nice piece of memorabilia in the reproduction ticket, and a stunning photo book. And what do you know? If you check the announcement thread, the main talking point, even more so than the selling price, is bemoaning the lack of new footage.)

As for the Cascio tracks, we've been discussing them for eleven years now. Everything to say has been said.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: every single fandom on the planet, including the MJ Fam, is guilty of an undeserved sense of entitlement and consistent dissatisfaction. We are not owed anything from any artist/estate. I'm far from a pro-MJE cheerleader; I just find so many of these analogies and complaints utterly hollow. I'm also praying we get a new song/album soon, but tearing the MJE a new one for not releasing anything is childish and borderline hysterical.
 

somewhereinthedark

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I’m so sick and tired of this! Enough is enough. This will be my first post about how tired and frustrated I am with how the estate are handling the vault. I just got a notification that Prince estate released “Do Me Baby Demo” from their forthcoming anniversary release of Dirty Mind.

Thus far The Prince estate has released:


Purple Rain re-release
Sign O The Time Re-release
1999 re-release
Welcome to America album
Originals (songs Prince wrote for other artists)
Piano and microphone album
3 live concerts (audio/video)
Purple Rain live Syracuse remastered
Feel for you original demo (standalone single)
Compilation album with one new song
And they are planning to release Dirty Mind and Diamonds and Pearls anniversary editions.


There are probably some other stuff that I forgot about..

Don’t give me that old excuse “it’s a different situation because Prince recorded more songs than MJ”. It’s not even a Prince vs MJ thing it’s just how uninspired and LAZY they are. They don’t have a lot of finished songs? Ok release a anniversary album with different takes and demo version of songs with maybe 1-2 unreleased songs. Why don’t they do a similar thing like they did with Prince “Originals?” Release a small EP with songs that MJ wrote/gave away to other artists . How about an album where we hear MJ’s tape recordings of him creating his songs and the whole process as seen on the depositions? Or how about just one standalone single? It doesn’t even have to be a new unheard song. Where are Dangerous, History, Off The Wall, Triumph re-releases? If they don’t think concerts are Suitable for worldwide release because of unusable audio why not then upload some of them on YouTube? WHY NOT? Seriously what is the problem? I don’t get it. It’s the lack of creativity that bothers me the most and then they try to write of fans like we’re asking for everything in the vault all at once.

End of rant//
You must not know much about Prince fans. Even with all of that, they STILL complain. Btw, don’t let anyone tell you the Prince Estate and Prince fans are not concerned with CHARTS and SALES, they ARE.
 

innuendo141

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LOL. They are not jealous, they could care less about the MJ Estate. They have their own business too. They not worried about who's running or how's MJ Estate doing, they are not worried about them. The Prince Estate is not gonna release everything, they have their own philosophy too, you know. There is going to be some things, they are not going to release as well. Give Prince some credit. Prince did some remarkable stuff in his career too. Of course its not going to be up to MJ so-called "level"(which I really don't like those comparisons) But nobody cares about stats and streams, in the end, we care about the MUSIC. Stats, Charts, and Streams does not equal musical talent, musicianship, or musical legacy. Because in the end, all these high numbers, awards, and recognition are not relevant. The music and the music gift is relevant. So which I mean Prince did really good in his career, even though people still deny that and tries to compare him. Might've not been to MJ's "stat" level, but who cares. His music is good.
Some people think sales are more important than the art unfortunately.
 

somewhereinthedark

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LOL. They are not jealous, they could care less about the MJ Estate. They have their own business too. They not worried about who's running or how's MJ Estate doing, they are not worried about them. The Prince Estate is not gonna release everything, they have their own philosophy too, you know. There is going to be some things, they are not going to release as well. Give Prince some credit. Prince did some remarkable stuff in his career too. Of course its not going to be up to MJ so-called "level"(which I really don't like those comparisons) But nobody cares about stats and streams, in the end, we care about the MUSIC. Stats, Charts, and Streams does not equal musical talent, musicianship, or musical legacy. Because in the end, all these high numbers, awards, and recognition are not relevant. The music and the music gift is relevant. So which I mean Prince did really good in his career, even though people still deny that and tries to compare him. Might've not been to MJ's "stat" level, but who cares. His music is good.
Yes, the Prince was/is jealous of the MJ Estate for the MONEY that the MJ Estate has made. You can bet that they have asked Branca about HOW the MJ has been doing so well. There is no way in hell that Branca would have said what he did, if it wasn’t true. The Michael Jackson Estate IS the envy of other Estates, whether some of you WANT to believe it or not. The Prince Estate is OBSESSED with MAKING MONEY and that is the reason for a lot of these releases. They are also obsessed with trying any tactic to gain a NEW generation of fans.
Some of you are too young or not knowledgeable enough to know that. I really am tired of those people who compare the MJ and Prince Estates, they are totally different. Thank God. I truly want the MJ Estate to release more things; however, I’m not going to go on some childish rant, if they don’t. I am a long time fan who is USED to long waits for Michael releases and can handle it. This is the very reason that I warned fans, especially younger and newer fans, that I was not going to get excited about ANYTHING, until it was OFFICIAL.
Finally, I will take what the MJ Estate has released( except the 3 songs on the Michael album) anyday over what the Prince Estate has released.
 
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