Leaving Neverland - Three Years Later

BlastFromThePast

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Hi All!

So firstly I want to say that I am very old guard. I was around on MJJForum around the year 2001 or so, all the way up through the 2005 trial and maybe a little while beyond. At that point, Trish was running it and there was this male model poster named Jax that every girl fawned over lol. Once the trial was over, I was so entirely exhausted and relieved that life took over and I ended up moving on from the forum. I believe my name back then was "DangerousThriller," but it appears someone else has signed up for it here, so I had to come up with something else haha. I see ElusiveMoonwalker posting a lot here, I remember him/her quite well, and I also see references to TSCM, whom I also recognize. And terrell! I remember that dude quite fondly. I know I interacted closely with them and am glad to see they have kept it all up!

When Leaving Neverland came around, I just didn't have the energy tbh. I was keenly aware we were right in the middle of an overwhelming emotional MeToo movement, and I was seeing how the phrase "believe all victims" was used synonymously with "believe all accusers," and I knew it really wasn't a great time to bother engaging with a certain segment of the population. It mirrored to me how BlackLivesMatter had become "defund police," where a well-intended movement that brought good got taken too far. As with other cases, I did take a step back and consider the veracity on their own terms, but I was also familiar with Wade Robson and was, to be frank, quite skeptical. I did some further research on Wade and also the story of James, and it became clear to me it was exactly what I figured, another money grab.

A few years have gone on, and I've had limited interactions with people about the entire thing. It seems largely it was not a huge topic of conversation even at its height in March 2019, though the press and Oprah (wtf) certainly had a field day. The one time I had one, reactions were mixed, but it was legitimately the peak of all this garbage and it was clear a couple of the people passionately arguing were abuse victims, so again I knew it was pointless. There was an attempt at soevietal cancellation, but obviously on the whole that has failed. Even places like New Zealand that banned him on some radio...I mean, what is this, 1983? Radio? lol who cares. I went through the entire processing of this closely over the past month or so, and run the gamut of emotions. I've gone back and commented on things years old now lol, just to get it out and engage so I can feel like I've done what I believe is standing up for justice.

As time has gone on, it seems to me that the world is generally agnostic and the focus is very, very largely on his music. I am not a fan or Joe Rogan, but I do sometimes view his stuff to see what reactions are on topics and every time Jackson came up (and he went into his crazy rant about MJ being chemically castrated LOL), the comments were very largely positive or agnostic. There'd be a comment here or there, but it'd usually either be ignored or shut down by more knowledgeable. I have even, GASP, seen some minds changed in real time, which essentially seems like an impossible thing in today's age.

Now, out of nowhere, I am starting to see Jackson blow up on TikTok of all places. There comments are again overwhelmingly positive and focus on the art and often the person. You'll always have a few "but he was a pedo" comments in long chains, but you're talking where a comment on MJ being amazing is getting 10k likes, and then someone jumps in and says something about little kids and it gets 20 likes and then usually numerous responses to the opposite.

The way I see it, the documentary had an immediate noticeable impact in certain portions of the world where media has lost its mind entirely, such as in the United States and the UK. But even then, a lot of it seemed to be on the surface from people with loud voices stating things as truth that people were either too afraid to disagree with because of the climate or just didn't care about. When Chapelle came out and said the quiet part out loud, I think it freed a lot of people tbh. As time has gone on and the MeToo has calmed quite a bit, I have personally noticed a shift with more people speaking on behalf of MJ's innocence and the very large focus in general being on his work as an artist. And I'm also seeing the younger generation making parallels to how the way he was treated in general was abhorrent, similar to how Britney was treated as a child star growing up. It's fascinating and, more importantly, encouraging.

Michael Jackson's life/legacy etc has been a roller coaster for 30 years. I am extremely confident that, in the end, his music will be what people actually care about. I am glad for that. What has always driven me to defend him, the very high likelihood of his innocence and what that means in terms of who he was as a person, seems to also have not taken as big a hit as some might have believed in the fog of war and to also be slowly recovering. We do not know what the future holds, but the fact there was not a deluge of other accusers and only people claiming nothing happened with him, is a promising sign. If Dan Reed (my personal feeling on Dan Reed is he might himself be PROMOTING the behavior, as we have seen with others in the past) actually wants to attempt to create Leaving Neverland 2 with freaking Gavin Arvizo...I mean I can't see how that doesn't backfire. I honestly believe it would actually help and, in the long term, discredit the original LN further as well. There's also always the possibility the SoL for perjury runs out again and Wade wants some money, so he writes a book about his MJ never did anything. James clearly wears his guilt on his sleeve, you can see it in his interviews, but I'm not sure any of them will ever say anything. Jordan...probably never in life, maybe in death. Or maybe he slips up and somebody films him, who knows. Maybe And, I'm telling you, something is OFF with Dan Reed. He is not right. Maybe something happens there, you never know...Or we could actually get a GOOD documentary at some point that paints MJ more sympathetically.

Anyway, having processed all this and living in the now, I feel quite good. MJ seems to be in a good place in society overall, and it's probably only going to get better from here on out. And this is in the United States, where he probably has been treated the worst. Whether we get the true home run that forces even those who refuse to examine facts to be swayed, I'm not sure, but I wanted to create this post to give my thoughts and experience and share my belief that the sun seems to be rising yet again. No matter what the long-term outcome, MJ was subject to the cruelest of world, beginning from his childhood. Always for money, no matter the type of abuse. Always. That injustice can never be undone, but the long term attempt to ruin him forever has failed and I think the impact from this horseshit episode has already begun to wane noticeably and will continue to do so over time.

Just wanted to share my thoughts, and say thanks to all those who have continued to fight the fight for justice :)
 

fraroc04

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I feel that in some respects, MJ's legacy is even stronger than ever with MJ the Musical having almost every damn show sold out and people appreciating his music more than ever...

But in the same vein the MJ haters, especially on Twitter, have became absolutley rabid and fanatical. I mean they've gotten a REAL hateboner for him now to the point where MJ fans are being publicly harassed and accused of being rape apologists, pedophilia apologists, pedos themselves, fans that provide countervailing hard evidence of Michael's innocence are instablocked by these people...I've seen MJ fans being compared to flat earthers, QAnoners, Covid deniers....
 

AlwaysThere

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In my opinion, Leaving Neverland did more damage to MJ’s career than anything that happened in his lifetime, if only due to the fact that he isn’t here to defend himself. He cooperated with the 1993-94 investigation and took his case to trial in 2005; this posthumous lynching has gone uncontested, and tragically, it will stay that way.

Now, make no mistake, MJ is still a beloved figure in popular culture. But if you’ve been part of the online fan community for the last few years, you’ve absolutely noticed a change in the tides. Celebrities are reluctant to express outright admiration. Some radio stations (as far as I know) are still refusing to play his music. Even articles that praise his accomplishments reference Robson and Safechuck’s BS. Compare this to circa 2014-18, when negativity was mostly few and far between, and the difference is night and day.

As I’ve said elsewhere, MJ fans tend to live in a bubble and reject reality. “The Broadway show is selling well! He’s high on Spotify! He’s on TikTok! Everybody knows the allegations are false!” So? There are also tweets, Facebook posts, and articles accusing MJ of pedophilia that garner hundreds of thousands of likes. At best, his career is in a neutral state.

As for Leaving Neverland itself, I feel the same way now as I did when it debuted: it’s a poorly-made, embarrassingly slight, non-credible hit piece crafted by a director whose fifteen minutes of fame dried up and is now trying desperately to cobble together a sequel, and starring two men whose exploits are painfully transparent and have been rebuked time and time again. I wish nothing but the worst for the three frontmen, and while I won’t hold my breath that Robson or Safechuck will ever own up to their lies, I hope they continue to fail at whatever they strive for.
 

BlastFromThePast

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In my opinion, Leaving Neverland did more damage to MJ’s career than anything that happened in his lifetime, if only due to the fact that he isn’t here to defend himself. He cooperated with the 1993-94 investigation and took his case to trial in 2005; this posthumous lynching has gone uncontested, and tragically, it will stay that way.

Now, make no mistake, MJ is still a beloved figure in popular culture. But if you’ve been part of the online fan community for the last few years, you’ve absolutely noticed a change in the tides. Celebrities are reluctant to express outright admiration. Some radio stations (as far as I know) are still refusing to play his music. Even articles that praise his accomplishments reference Robson and Safechuck’s BS. Compare this to circa 2014-18, when negativity was mostly few and far between, and the difference is night and day.

As I’ve said elsewhere, MJ fans tend to live in a bubble and reject reality. “The Broadway show is selling well! He’s high on Spotify! He’s on TikTok! Everybody knows the allegations are false!” So? There are also tweets, Facebook posts, and articles accusing MJ of pedophilia that garner hundreds of thousands of likes. At best, his career is in a neutral state.

As for Leaving Neverland itself, I feel the same way now as I did when it debuted: it’s a poorly-made, embarrassingly slight, non-credible hit piece crafted by a director whose fifteen minutes of fame dried up and is now trying desperately to cobble together a sequel, and starring two men whose exploits are painfully transparent and have been rebuked time and time again. I wish nothing but the worst for the three frontmen, and while I won’t hold my breath that Robson or Safechuck will ever own up to their lies, I hope they continue to fail at whatever they strive for.
No offense, but I have to ask if you were around during 2005? The polling during 2005 had 75-80% of the US believing he was guilty and over 60% believed the case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt even by the end of it. The media coverage globally was probably 100 times what Leaving Neverland ever was. I'm being literal here, it was probably 100X worse, if not beyond that. There was never anything like it in the history of the world, and the media was even worse, filtering stuff that was objectively great for MJ as a "bad day for Michael Jackson." The polling on guilt even immediately after LN, which was in the white hot middle of the MeToo movement, had him in nowhere near as bad a shape as 2005. I actually saw him at 41% believed guilt the week before LN and 39% guilt a few weeks after. By the 10th anninversary of his death, it was down to 37%. There were a ton of "I don't know" answers. Since then, I can't imagine numbers have gone up, especially given the issues found with their stories and the cooling down of MeToo and backlash against cancel culture. I really can't imagine that anyone who was following/lived through the Bashir hit piece and trial from 2003-05 would say LN was worse. I don't think it's even in the same stratosphere.

What you're mentioning about celebs and all this was worse in 2005, and that leaves out key context that we lived through MeToo and Cancel Culture, and these people just keep their mouths shut to avoid the drama. It appears to be waning, as well, he's re-entering culture again and people seem to not be paying much attention to Dan Reed or his two liars. James Safechuck Tweeted for the first time since the Train Station debacle, in an attempt to get negative PR about Michael, and it currently has 50 likes lol. Critics are complaining he hasn't been canceled, so that gives a pretty good indication. Also, 1993 he might have cooperated, but he also made the single worst decision of his life and settled the civil case. That's all anyone remembers about 1993, Michael "paying off his victim to keep him quiet."

I actually think you have it backwards. We live now in a social media bubble, where everywhere we go there is someone there to disagree or argue with you. In 2019, it was the MeToo crowd. Truth is most people didn't care to engage in any of this, it's just what we all saw. The number of people engaging is far below what it was in 2019, as well. From what I see, it's basically the same 5 people with cat icons. This is also largely relegated to select Western nations, the large majority of the global population has never believed this and thinks the Western media is insane (true).

If there is a weak link in the LN cast, it's Amanda Robson. I think Wade has essentially coopted her abuse as his own, forcing her to deny it and him to play victim to the world. Wade also coopted his father's abuse as well, as evidenced by him asking his mother how he talked about it. Then there's always Jordie. Who knows if he ever decides to say anything. I think probably he will, even if it's with a letter at death or the death of his mother, but you never do know.

Overall, I think the large majority of people just don't care about Leaving Neverland. Not that many people saw it and the idea of destroying people in that manner, especially dead people, is losings its appeal rapidly. Polling numbers I have seen have not shown it changing many people's opinions. The only major poll has seen it go down slightly.
 
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BlastFromThePast

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I feel that in some respects, MJ's legacy is even stronger than ever with MJ the Musical having almost every damn show sold out and people appreciating his music more than ever...

But in the same vein the MJ haters, especially on Twitter, have became absolutley rabid and fanatical. I mean they've gotten a REAL hateboner for him now to the point where MJ fans are being publicly harassed and accused of being rape apologists, pedophilia apologists, pedos themselves, fans that provide countervailing hard evidence of Michael's innocence are instablocked by these people...I've seen MJ fans being compared to flat earthers, QAnoners, Covid deniers....
It's such a small group of people, though, and this is basically just what social media is. If social media had been around during 2003-2005, it'd have been a billion times worse. Negative connotations about MJ permeated society from 2003-2005. Leaving Neverland was a blip, the very large majority of people never saw it, and society doesn't have the attention span for this kind of thing anymore anyway. Smartphones have destroyed that. In 2005, EVERYONE saw MJ 24/7.
 

Dunk96

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I'm a fan who grew up in the post-trial, short pre-death era from 2005-09 so I vaguely remember goings-on back then in forums and in the real world. Many many people had no respect for him and didn't appreciate him until his death. Then people realized his greatness after that point and even many MJ haters for a time grew into fans once they realized that every allegation of abuse was a money grab, including the LN bullsh*t. The small group of MJ haters now who just post to troll is gradually way smaller than it was ten years ago. At this point they're just miserable b*tches lol. MJ's legacy is not going anywhere, no matter what the media narrative tries to spin or their constant campaigns to "cancel" him. He's just as relevant now as he was when Thriller was at it's height back in the 1980s. I'm devastated to this day he's not here to witness this.
 

fraroc04

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I'm a fan who grew up in the post-trial, short pre-death era from 2005-09 so I vaguely remember goings-on back then in forums and in the real world. Many many people had no respect for him and didn't appreciate him until his death. Then people realized his greatness after that point and even many MJ haters for a time grew into fans once they realized that every allegation of abuse was a money grab, including the LN bullsh*t. The small group of MJ haters now who just post to troll is gradually way smaller than it was ten years ago. At this point they're just miserable b*tches lol. MJ's legacy is not going anywhere, no matter what the media narrative tries to spin or their constant campaigns to "cancel" him. He's just as relevant now as he was when Thriller was at it's height back in the 1980s. I'm devastated to this day he's not here to witness this.
Nowadays, a lot of MJ haters mask it in this veil of "I'm doing the right thing and supporting all victims of child sex abuse and if you don't agree with me that MJ is guilty, it means you're a pedo apologist and an objectively bad person."
 

Dunk96

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Nowadays, a lot of MJ haters mask it in this veil of "I'm doing the right thing and supporting all victims of child sex abuse and if you don't agree with me that MJ is guilty, it means you're a pedo apologist and an objectively bad person."
Exactly, and those exact same people are, in reality, projecting about themselves. 99.5% of the time they either are pedophiles or are covering up for somebody close to them who is a pedophile. Hell, look at W*de R*bson himself lol. He's the real danger, not Michael.
 

Amaya

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Exactly, and those exact same people are, in reality, projecting about themselves. 99.5% of the time they either are pedophiles or are covering up for somebody close to them who is a pedophile. Hell, look at W*de R*bson himself lol. He's the real danger, not Michael.

Indeed. I smelled these attitudes a LONG time ago, and it's gotten even worse now with social media and all the shitty movements that have come about from it.
 

BlastFromThePast

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I'm going to bump this. We are another 10 months or so out, and honestly comments I see on MJ on social media to me now are very similar to what I saw pre LN. Yeah, you get those comments mixed in, but it's at a pretty low ratio similar to what it always was and, if anything, I see far more people now willing to outright say they've done their research and believe he was innocent than I ever saw before.

He's coming back more into the normal "celebrity" society lexicon, as well. The resounding success of the musical was probably a good test run for celebs who were scared to support him or wear his stuff to shift a bit.
 

Hiker

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This is hopeful. I think its one of Michael's quote - Lies runs sprints, but the truth runs marathons.
 

DangerousGal91

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Exactly, and those exact same people are, in reality, projecting about themselves. 99.5% of the time they either are pedophiles or are covering up for somebody close to them who is a pedophile. Hell, look at W*de R*bson himself lol. He's the real danger, not Michael.
I must admit, when I read that Robson apparently said he "imagined his son being sexually abused and that's when [he] realized MJ molested [him]" was... What the heck was that?! What parent does that?! I'm not explicitly accusing him of anything illegal, but goodness, I was so disgusted! I am absolutely questioning his motives with that. Being a concerned parent is not an excuse, at least not to me.

Plus, plagiarizing Gutierrez... Wonder about his motives there too. Call me crazy, I don't care. It's all extremely iffy.

That being said, I am super happy that so many people are positive about MJ. Just shows that his legacy will never be ruined. I can't think of anything that would, at this point. Even more allegations? Hah, don't make me laugh.
 

BlastFromThePast

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I must admit, when I read that Robson apparently said he "imagined his son being sexually abused and that's when [he] realized MJ molested [him]" was... What the heck was that?! What parent does that?! I'm not explicitly accusing him of anything illegal, but goodness, I was so disgusted! I am absolutely questioning his motives with that. Being a concerned parent is not an excuse, at least not to me.

Plus, plagiarizing Gutierrez... Wonder about his motives there too. Call me crazy, I don't care. It's all extremely iffy.

That being said, I am super happy that so many people are positive about MJ. Just shows that his legacy will never be ruined. I can't think of anything that would, at this point. Even more allegations? Hah, don't make me laugh.
Wade also brought up having his child in the email he had written to MJ's Estate where he begged to be part of the Cirque show and talked about how MJ was the greatest human ever. I guess he hadn't yet imagined that child being abused. That didn't happen until after the estate chose someone else to direct the show...
 

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That defamatory film caused me not only anger and stress all of 2019, but also causes me on a huge boycottting spree to those who disrespected, bashes and kill off Michael. I’ve boycotted HBO, OWN, Starbucks, “The Simpsons”, Cogeco, Louis Vuitton, and way too many to name because I‘ve added those into my H8T all piling up and believe me it’s not that pretty. And on top of that, I even told off and mouthed off Rosie O’Donnell telling her “YOU’RE STUPID FOR LIFE!!!” via Twitter and blocked her, I even told off Funimation VA Leah Clark as well, I was a fan of Clark until she said watched the film not only disturbed me, but angers me. And I even added those who hated Michael or believe in such bulls🤬 lies for example Heather Graham calls Robson & STABchuck “brave” which sickens me further to my H8T list and hated them them since as the list goes on. Drake, Heather Graham, Matt Groening, Al Jean, James Brooks, Rosie O’Donnell, Sarah Silverman (Sliverman), Gene Simmons and I mean like so many to name that I hate now.

And it got worse before the years end, unrelated to this, I boycotted Rogers and Sportsnet for firing Don Cherry and killing “Coache’s Corner” and I’ve been saying that this CancelCulture is a disease, a global epidemic, much worse than the coronavirus. And this then after the anger and stress I’ve suffered in 2019, things got a little better that Michael and the truth continues to dominate and with LN dying, Michael and the truth continues to win.
 

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It still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth and it has damaged his career beyond repair. If you look for it you know what I mean. I will give an example. I saw an add in the newspaper today promoting the top 800 songs of the 80s which people can vote for. MJ as we all know was the face of the 80s but guess who was missing from the add? Right MJ was. There was a huge picture of Prince with on his left Madonna and on his right Bruce Springsteen and above Prince there was George Michael.
It would be unthinkable before LN to have an add promoting 80s music without MJ.

On top of that MJ is largely not talked about anymore in Belgiums media and there will ALWAYS be a connotation to LN If he is mentioned on tv or radio. Post 1993 people didn’t really believe the allegations, in 2005 he was acquitted so you could not publicly say he was guilty (apart from some completely thick US media outlets) but in 2019 everything changed because the “victims” got no less than 4 hours to make MJ look like a monster and the damn thing was sold to every possible country you can imagine. If this was a war then LN was a nuclear strike!

True after a year the storm calmed down but the radiation that LN left is still affecting all media and people’s minds. The MJ jokes about his alleged child love are gone because now in peoples minds the jokes became reality and pedophilia is by no means a laughing matter (rightly so).
The seed is sown and in my opinion Reed and co won the battle and I cannot express my disappointment about it in words.
 

Toxic34

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It's certainly sad to know how much things have effectively stagnated regarding Michael's legacy because of LN. Especially when people supporting the likes of Johnny Depp through his own trials and tribulations declare Michael guilty. It feels a bit like a slap in the face, to defend Johnny and say how he's the victim of character assassination (which he has been), but just jump in and believe the lies about Michael.
 

BlastFromThePast

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It still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth and it has damaged his career beyond repair. If you look for it you know what I mean. I will give an example. I saw an add in the newspaper today promoting the top 800 songs of the 80s which people can vote for. MJ as we all know was the face of the 80s but guess who was missing from the add? Right MJ was. There was a huge picture of Prince with on his left Madonna and on his right Bruce Springsteen and above Prince there was George Michael.
It would be unthinkable before LN to have an add promoting 80s music without MJ.

On top of that MJ is largely not talked about anymore in Belgiums media and there will ALWAYS be a connotation to LN If he is mentioned on tv or radio. Post 1993 people didn’t really believe the allegations, in 2005 he was acquitted so you could not publicly say he was guilty (apart from some completely thick US media outlets) but in 2019 everything changed because the “victims” got no less than 4 hours to make MJ look like a monster and the damn thing was sold to every possible country you can imagine. If this was a war then LN was a nuclear strike!

True after a year the storm calmed down but the radiation that LN left is still affecting all media and people’s minds. The MJ jokes about his alleged child love are gone because now in peoples minds the jokes became reality and pedophilia is by no means a laughing matter (rightly so).
The seed is sown and in my opinion Reed and co won the battle and I cannot express my disappointment about it in words.

Honestly, I really don't see too much of this. Let's be clear, Michael Jackson has been dead for over 13 years. Why would he be getting talked about regularly in any mainstream media? Also, I'm not talking about jokes, I'm talking about negative comments, and honestly whenever the topic comes up, it's almost inevitably a large majority of people defending him against them. In many ways, people are more informed now than ever, because information is processed much differently than it was when MJ was alive.

I don't give a crap what media outlets say and don't, what matters is the public opinion, and in that regards he is still incredibly popular and supported. MJ the musical has been top 3 grossing on Broadway for the past 2-3 months, and has sold out I think every single show this year in a large venue. He's about to jump into the top 10 most talked about people on TIK TOK, which is the younger generation. I don't think that many people even saw LN tbh. I am very bullish on MJ's legacy at this point, and I think it's almost completely recovered and has an insanely great future, given his incredible popularity with Gen Z.
 

filmandmusic

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Honestly, I really don't see too much of this. Let's be clear, Michael Jackson has been dead for over 13 years. Why would he be getting talked about regularly in any mainstream media? Also, I'm not talking about jokes, I'm talking about negative comments, and honestly whenever the topic comes up, it's almost inevitably a large majority of people defending him against them.
I personally never hear him being defended. Maybe he is on social media etc but I do not follow those. Whenever he is being discussed on the radio or tv there is always that pedophilia thing looming over his name, I can sense it, people are holding back in praising him because it could draw negative comments from listeners or viewers (I have seen it happen before).
The demography of 30 plus is definitely affected and these are the people that grew up with him so it is a difficult feeling. They love him yet there is this negativity hanging over him.
In many ways, people are more informed now than ever, because information is processed much differently than it was when MJ was alive.
Informed with lies just as much as truth. The fake news brigade is huge lol.
I don't give a crap what media outlets say and don't, what matters is the public opinion, and in that regards he is still incredibly popular and supported. MJ the musical has been top 3 grossing on Broadway for the past 2-3 months, and has sold out I think every single show this year in a large venue. He's about to jump into the top 10 most talked about people on TIK TOK, which is the younger generation. I don't think that many people even saw LN tbh. I am very bullish on MJ's legacy at this point, and I think it's almost completely recovered and has an insanely great future, given his incredible popularity with Gen Z.
I can't argue that, these are hard facts. I am talking about something sensory, something that is hard to measure but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I can only hope that the younger generation is idd behind MJ because they are the most important, they have the power to cancel these days lol
 

zinniabooklover

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I personally never hear him being defended.
Me neither.

Maybe he is on social media etc but I do not follow those.
Same.

Whenever he is being discussed on the radio or tv there is always that pedophilia thing looming over his name, I can sense it, people are holding back in praising him because it could draw negative comments from listeners or viewers (I have seen it happen before).
Agree 100%. Radio, tv or newspapers, that's where I see this stuff happening. I'm sure this will be dismissed bc, who listens to radio or reads newspapers these days? Maybe social media is way more influential compared to old-school MSM but there is still plenty of negativity towards Michael out there. His rehabilitation is going well, I would say, but it's not a done deal, imo.

Earlier this year The Times ran a big piece on Christopher Wheeldon ahead of his ballet Like Water for Chocolate. Big 2 page spread, the huge main photo was from MJ The Musical. It was referenced in the piece, obvs, partly in the context of having just been nominated for 10 Tony awards. The success of the show was mentioned but Michael was described as the 'disgraced idol'. He isn't constantly in MSM, afaik, but when he is mentioned it seems there always has to be this background drip-drip-drip of negativity. It might be so-called 'jokes' or it might be stuff like this characterisation in The Times but it is there. And, of course, the 'jokes' about plastic surgery never went away. Couple of months ago there were two so-called 'jokes' in the same issue of one newspaper I was reading (I read lots of different ones, can't remember which one it was). Just quite casual and written as if, of course, anyone reading this will understand the 'joke' and find it hilariously funny. His appearance, his so-called 'weirdness' both get referenced quite casually. Not frequently, perhaps, but often enough.

Informed with lies just as much as truth. The fake news brigade is huge lol.
Indeed.

I can't argue that, these are hard facts. I am talking about something sensory, something that is hard to measure but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Exactly. It is hard to measure but it's a real thing. The negativity has calmed down a lot over the years and that's great but this isn't over, imo.
 

staywild23

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I'm going to bump this. We are another 10 months or so out, and honestly comments I see on MJ on social media to me now are very similar to what I saw pre LN. Yeah, you get those comments mixed in, but it's at a pretty low ratio similar to what it always was and, if anything, I see far more people now willing to outright say they've done their research and believe he was innocent than I ever saw before.

He's coming back more into the normal "celebrity" society lexicon, as well. The resounding success of the musical was probably a good test run for celebs who were scared to support him or wear his stuff to shift a bit.

I appreciate you bumping this thread! I totally agree. I actually have noticed a shift just this YEAR. I became a fan in January and I had never heard of LN at that point. I only found out about it because of exploring MJ's music (which I was only exposed to because edits of his performances got recommended to me through social media). I hadn't really thought about Michael in years at that point, but the videos were obviously amazing and when I saw all of the super positive comments it actually made me more interested in him. That's what lead to the full madness which is my obsessive fan life lol.

Anyway, back in January-February I was still seeing mostly really positive comments about him, but I would see horrible things too, especially on Twitter. But in the months since the Tony Awards, I've noticed way more positivity about him. Tons of celebrities openly posting about him, or at least about the musical. Lots of really positive tweets going viral about him on almost a weekly basis. I now pay pretty close attention to what's happening on Twitter and I guess a couple days ago someone on one of the Real Housewives shows said something about how no one should play Michael Jackson and Twitter is NOT having it lol. Same goes for a month or so ago when Rolling Stone UK tried to declare Harry Styles the new King of Pop. Michael trended for like 48 hours with several pro-Michael comments generating 100K+ likes and shares. I saw it covered in several major media sources, talking about how Michael Jackson fans and the general public do not want a new king of pop. This was all very recent. I've also seen several articles recently that didn't mention anything about LN or the allegations. Also, while MTV did not reinstate the name "Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award" for the VMAs, virtually ALL major media outlets reported it as that when Nicki Minaj won this year.

Anyway, I agree that mainstream media is not at all a measure of the way people actually feel. I'm not sure social media is either, of course. But the bottom line is that Michael is still selling like crazy. He's charting all the time. He's still breaking records. The musical IS having an impact, despite it being limited to a small number of the American public. And it's having that impact, in part, because massive celebrities (such as Beyonce and Jay-Z) are attending and sharing it on social media.

Of course, it's not useful to pretend that it's all over and everyone loves Michael and has no hangups about him. But it's also not useful to assume that's not the case, when clearly the pendulum is swinging in the other direction, and there is a ton of evidence of that. So time will continue to tell, but I think fans have a good reason to be positive right now.
 

staywild23

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In my post above I referenced a recent incident regarding a cast member of one of the Real Housewives shows said we shouldn't listen to Michael Jackson. Well, Screenrant just published this article about it the response to it. In it they talk about how the allegations were not proven and many people believe they were all about money.

Check it out!


Also, last night I went to an MJ tribute concert (first time I've ever been to something like this) and it was legitimately amazing. Fans of ALL ages, from the very elderly to the very young, were dancing and screaming in the aisles. It was like the warmest, biggest hug to be surrounded by a whole massive crowd of people in love with MJ, and celebrating his music. It made me realize just how REAL the love for him truly is. I saw more energy and love and joy at this TRIBUTE concert than I have at many regular ones! 😂
 

KOPV

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05 was worse with overall perception of Michael Jackson, the difference today with LN is what the dynamic of social media has done. There are people with no media ties that seek to push the narrative he's guilty with a passion and platforms to do it. Those same people love dismissing MJ fans as 'stans' or 'fanatics' that are purely based on information bias while their bias is using selective information and love to hate MJ as fanatically as some MJ fans love MJ.
 

DangerousGal91

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Honestly? I do not care what mainstream media thinks, just in general. I'm not even speaking solely as a Michael Jackson fan here. But I digress.

I do agree that it seemed to be much worse back in 2005. Back then I wasn't a fan yet, and a big part of the reason why was because everyone went full trial by media. People say cancel culture is bad nowadays, and they might be right, but it isn't new! And truth be told, perhaps things might be changing in general in this regard, not just in regards to Michael; sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, I guess. But I'm digressing again.

Anyway. Back in 2005, I was still young. I was a 13 year old high schooler, and while the internet did of course exist, resources were much more scarce, plus since my surroundings essentially made me afraid of Michael (something I deeply regret), I never bothered to look anything up. I didn't even pay attention to the trial that closely since I found him a "scary man" (Michael once again I'm sorry!!! 😭). Heck, I wasn't even aware that he was acquitted back in the day, and even if I had been, the media still portrayed him as "secretly guilty" despite all that. Plus, I was a teen who knew absolute jack about the court of law, so I'm not sure I would've understood the significance of the acquittal anyway. Though despite the fact I found him scary back then, I was more of a fence-sitter when it came to his guilt, since I didn't know who to believe. That's what it was like, for me.

Doing your own research is a lot easier nowadays, plus I credit my own acquired maturity as well with regards to forming my own opinion. If a child or teen were to ever ask me if Michael was a "scary man", I'd respond in truth and tell them, "no, my dear, he was a victim of bullying". Because he was. Plus, I've seen too many other people in recent years being cancelled for a) things they didn't even do, or b) situations that were taken out of context and that weren't actually done out of malice. This has also definitely influenced my opinion on believing Michael's innocence.

I'd also like to ask people to try and not be too negative and say things such as "Michael's career has been damaged beyond repair". It hasn't, and it won't be. That will only happen if we, as fans, stop defending him and let us get walked over. If you encounter someone in your personal spaces who believes he was guilty, confront them and remind them first and foremost that he was acquitted during his lifetime and that there's no point in pursuing the matter now that he's dead. And if you can, and the person is willing to listen, go a step further and talk about all the evidence that's out there that point towards Michael's innocence. Show them the blogs, the videos, the transcripts, everything. And if you lose friends over it, so be it! They aren't worth having as friends. I will die on this hill. I was unable to support Michael when he was still alive, but I hope to at least defend his legacy now that I've been able to fully form my own opinions as an adult. I've been told what to think and say for too long to let it affect me anymore.

And I say all of that as someone with a terrible anxiety disorder who's afraid of sharing very mundane things with other people. If people will yell and get violent towards me because I'm a fierce defender of arguably the most successful black man in history, then so be it. I'm willing to take the hit, no matter how hard. That's how serious and fierce I am regarding this. And if you're able to, I'm asking all of his fans to do the same thing. Even doing it on the internet alone already helps. Don't let yourself get walked over, that's how they win. And we can't let the vultures win.
 

somewhereinthedark

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Honestly? I do not care what mainstream media thinks, just in general. I'm not even speaking solely as a Michael Jackson fan here. But I digress.

I do agree that it seemed to be much worse back in 2005. Back then I wasn't a fan yet, and a big part of the reason why was because everyone went full trial by media. People say cancel culture is bad nowadays, and they might be right, but it isn't new! And truth be told, perhaps things might be changing in general in this regard, not just in regards to Michael; sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, I guess. But I'm digressing again.

Anyway. Back in 2005, I was still young. I was a 13 year old high schooler, and while the internet did of course exist, resources were much more scarce, plus since my surroundings essentially made me afraid of Michael (something I deeply regret), I never bothered to look anything up. I didn't even pay attention to the trial that closely since I found him a "scary man" (Michael once again I'm sorry!!! 😭). Heck, I wasn't even aware that he was acquitted back in the day, and even if I had been, the media still portrayed him as "secretly guilty" despite all that. Plus, I was a teen who knew absolute jack about the court of law, so I'm not sure I would've understood the significance of the acquittal anyway. Though despite the fact I found him scary back then, I was more of a fence-sitter when it came to his guilt, since I didn't know who to believe. That's what it was like, for me.

Doing your own research is a lot easier nowadays, plus I credit my own acquired maturity as well with regards to forming my own opinion. If a child or teen were to ever ask me if Michael was a "scary man", I'd respond in truth and tell them, "no, my dear, he was a victim of bullying". Because he was. Plus, I've seen too many other people in recent years being cancelled for a) things they didn't even do, or b) situations that were taken out of context and that weren't actually done out of malice. This has also definitely influenced my opinion on believing Michael's innocence.

I'd also like to ask people to try and not be too negative and say things such as "Michael's career has been damaged beyond repair". It hasn't, and it won't be. That will only happen if we, as fans, stop defending him and let us get walked over. If you encounter someone in your personal spaces who believes he was guilty, confront them and remind them first and foremost that he was acquitted during his lifetime and that there's no point in pursuing the matter now that he's dead. And if you can, and the person is willing to listen, go a step further and talk about all the evidence that's out there that point towards Michael's innocence. Show them the blogs, the videos, the transcripts, everything. And if you lose friends over it, so be it! They aren't worth having as friends. I will die on this hill. I was unable to support Michael when he was still alive, but I hope to at least defend his legacy now that I've been able to fully form my own opinions as an adult. I've been told what to think and say for too long to let it affect me anymore.

And I say all of that as someone with a terrible anxiety disorder who's afraid of sharing very mundane things with other people. If people will yell and get violent towards me because I'm a fierce defender of arguably the most successful black man in history, then so be it. I'm willing to take the hit, no matter how hard. That's how serious and fierce I am regarding this. And if you're able to, I'm asking all of his fans to do the same thing. Even doing it on the internet alone already helps. Don't let yourself get walked over, that's how they win. And we can't let the vultures win.
I agree. We can’t let the vultures win. I defend Michael at every chance I get. I am passionate about defending him. Recently, I have had people responding to me on other forums with comments like “ I wish I had said that” or “ thank you I never knew those facts”. I don’t allow the fantacists to intimidate me by saying things like “Stan”. EVERY fan is passionate about their favorite artist, except Michael fans have had to go through more than ANY other fandom, EVER. The fake allegations were just a result of jealousy, racism, etc. because of his UNPRECEDENTED success, influence, popularity and the fact that he did NOT allow the industry to control him or mold him into what THEY wanted him to be.
Please remember that the media is STILL angry that all of their attempts to destroy Michael have failed. I am so proud to be a Michael fan and proud that we don’t allow the BS to go unchallenged. I read an article ( can’t remember from where) and the author was stating that Michael Jackson fans were not allowing that person to get away with saying what she did on that housewife show. I love when MJ fans aggressively and passionately defend him. I’ve been doing it for 40+ years and my resolve is even stronger today than ever.
 

somewhereinthedark

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Honestly? I do not care what mainstream media thinks, just in general. I'm not even speaking solely as a Michael Jackson fan here. But I digress.

I do agree that it seemed to be much worse back in 2005. Back then I wasn't a fan yet, and a big part of the reason why was because everyone went full trial by media. People say cancel culture is bad nowadays, and they might be right, but it isn't new! And truth be told, perhaps things might be changing in general in this regard, not just in regards to Michael; sometimes things have to get worse before they get better, I guess. But I'm digressing again.

Anyway. Back in 2005, I was still young. I was a 13 year old high schooler, and while the internet did of course exist, resources were much more scarce, plus since my surroundings essentially made me afraid of Michael (something I deeply regret), I never bothered to look anything up. I didn't even pay attention to the trial that closely since I found him a "scary man" (Michael once again I'm sorry!!! 😭). Heck, I wasn't even aware that he was acquitted back in the day, and even if I had been, the media still portrayed him as "secretly guilty" despite all that. Plus, I was a teen who knew absolute jack about the court of law, so I'm not sure I would've understood the significance of the acquittal anyway. Though despite the fact I found him scary back then, I was more of a fence-sitter when it came to his guilt, since I didn't know who to believe. That's what it was like, for me.

Doing your own research is a lot easier nowadays, plus I credit my own acquired maturity as well with regards to forming my own opinion. If a child or teen were to ever ask me if Michael was a "scary man", I'd respond in truth and tell them, "no, my dear, he was a victim of bullying". Because he was. Plus, I've seen too many other people in recent years being cancelled for a) things they didn't even do, or b) situations that were taken out of context and that weren't actually done out of malice. This has also definitely influenced my opinion on believing Michael's innocence.

I'd also like to ask people to try and not be too negative and say things such as "Michael's career has been damaged beyond repair". It hasn't, and it won't be. That will only happen if we, as fans, stop defending him and let us get walked over. If you encounter someone in your personal spaces who believes he was guilty, confront them and remind them first and foremost that he was acquitted during his lifetime and that there's no point in pursuing the matter now that he's dead. And if you can, and the person is willing to listen, go a step further and talk about all the evidence that's out there that point towards Michael's innocence. Show them the blogs, the videos, the transcripts, everything. And if you lose friends over it, so be it! They aren't worth having as friends. I will die on this hill. I was unable to support Michael when he was still alive, but I hope to at least defend his legacy now that I've been able to fully form my own opinions as an adult. I've been told what to think and say for too long to let it affect me anymore.

And I say all of that as someone with a terrible anxiety disorder who's afraid of sharing very mundane things with other people. If people will yell and get violent towards me because I'm a fierce defender of arguably the most successful black man in history, then so be it. I'm willing to take the hit, no matter how hard. That's how serious and fierce I am regarding this. And if you're able to, I'm asking all of his fans to do the same thing. Even doing it on the internet alone already helps. Don't let yourself get walked over, that's how they win. And we can't let the vultures win.
Thank you. Michael’s career has NOT been damaged beyond repair. I don’t know ANY OTHER artist career who would have survived what Michael’s has. Not only survived, it is FLOURISHING and he is gaining millions of NEW fans every year. Anyone who says his career has been damaged beyond repair, must surely be living a cave. Name any artist present or past who is as popular and influential as Michael Jackson. I don’t care what the biased media or so-called “critics”say. They have NEVER been fair to Michael; therefore, their opinion means nothing. These people did everything they could to destroy the MJ Musical. They FAILED spectacularly. Not only did it win MORE Tony awards than any Musical nominated, it is STILL outselling them all. Notice how quite these so-called “critics” became after the Awards? Fans need to focus on the POSITIVE and not the manufactured negativity. As long as WE, the fans, support and defend Michael, he will do as he has ALWAYS done- Thrive and Succeed.
 

somewhereinthedark

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In my post above I referenced a recent incident regarding a cast member of one of the Real Housewives shows said we shouldn't listen to Michael Jackson. Well, Screenrant just published this article about it the response to it. In it they talk about how the allegations were not proven and many people believe they were all about money.

Check it out!


Also, last night I went to an MJ tribute concert (first time I've ever been to something like this) and it was legitimately amazing. Fans of ALL ages, from the very elderly to the very young, were dancing and screaming in the aisles. It was like the warmest, biggest hug to be surrounded by a whole massive crowd of people in love with MJ, and celebrating his music. It made me realize just how REAL the love for him truly is. I saw more energy and love and joy at this TRIBUTE concert than I have at many regular ones! 😂
This is the same reaction that I see from people. Btw, kids Love Michael and that is something that has never diminished after all these years. He is the only artist who appeals to every age group from babies to 80 year old.
 

somewhereinthedark

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I feel that in some respects, MJ's legacy is even stronger than ever with MJ the Musical having almost every damn show sold out and people appreciating his music more than ever...

But in the same vein the MJ haters, especially on Twitter, have became absolutley rabid and fanatical. I mean they've gotten a REAL hateboner for him now to the point where MJ fans are being publicly harassed and accused of being rape apologists, pedophilia apologists, pedos themselves, fans that provide countervailing hard evidence of Michael's innocence are instablocked by these people...I've seen MJ fans being compared to flat earthers, QAnoners, Covid deniers....
I’ve seen a FEW haters say the same thing. I respond that they are FANTACISTS, people who WANT children to be abused, for THEIR own pleasure. This usually shuts them down or they come back with some weak retort. I never allow haters to “win” with their pathetic rhetoric. These people like to TRY and bully MJ fans and I’m not one they can bully. That tactic has NEVER worked with me and these Fantacists have tried for years. I don’t try and reason with Hatef/Fantacists. They don’t care about FACTS. They have one goal and that’s to try and dissuade MJ fans from defending him. They want people to accept THEIR narrative and just sit back and ALLOW them to say what they want. That doesn’t work with me and I can proudly say it is NOT working with this new generation of fans. Fans are debunking these Hater/Fantacists with evidence, facts, aggression and passion. FTR, these idiots have ALWAYS had a “hateboner” for Michael, and that INCLUDES the media.You think this is bad? It is nothing new. I know. I have confronted these “rabid dogs” before. Michael KNEW this and this is why he wrote the lyrics” I know you LUST for me... “ in one of his songs. These Hater/Fantacists LUST(“haterbone”j for Michael., and that’s the bottomline.
 
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