Let's end the confusion about MJ's unreleased tracks here

[Bad1978]

So ive been making this list, its not finished, only half way, but once its done, itll be a table

Every known confirmed MJ songs recorded/written in his adult career

Copy of Every known confirmed MJ song recorded - public

docs.google.com

Awesome work

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

Falling Down"

Michael Jackson Bryan Loren

One of around 20-25 songs recorded with Bryan Loren during sessions for Dangerous between 1989-1991. Recorded in November 1989. Reworked for "HIStory" and "Invincible

People are just making up song titles at this point lol

 

[Hollywood_Tonight]

True, but at least the last two songs felt like they had a concrete foundation. In the Back is a fully-fledged music track with a rough vocal. Even She Was Lovin’ Me at least had an atmosphere. Slave to the Rhythm feels amateurish; it’s one of the only songs that I feel needed a remix to be worth listening to. But that’s just my perspective of it.

MJ clearly saw enough potential to record a full vocal. Also, I disagree with In The Back having a fully fledged instrumental.

 

[ChanceToDance]

People are just making up song titles at this point lol

When it's on that format I know right away it's some shit pulled from the wikipedia lmao.

 

[Alec]

Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Slave to the Rhythm as the Don't Be Messin' Round of latter day albums isn't a bad idea tbh.

 

[ChanceToDance]

Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!

Thank you so much for sharing this! Honestly I think I Was The Loser might be the only song from the later years we can say that might've ended up on MJ's upcoming album, it's one of the most polished tracks from that time and he clearly showed a great liking for it.

 

[ChanceToDance]

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

So 6 songs. Xscape has already been released and counting GYWOOM that brings us to 4 songs. If we're generous and count the songs on TUC that brings us to 3 songs. There's a chance that there are 3 more Rodney Jerkins tracks we've never heard of that are in a releasable state.

 

[AlwaysThere]

Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!

Thank you, sir!

I figured as much re: the Jerkins outtakes. I find it hard to believe that they left behind too many.

 

[SmoothMel7]

Interesting discussion, thanks guys!

Years ago, I helped Joe Vogel fact-check some of his articles. I just read through some of our old correspondence.

In 2011, he told me:

About Michael's final songs:
Think of it this way: if we are comparing to the Dangerous album, it was still 1990. So think of all that happened in terms of the evolution of Dangerous from 1990 to fall of 91. I Was the Loser could have been a "Serious Effect" or "If You Don't Love Me." MJ rarely made it clear to people what was going to make it or be a single until very late in the process. That being said, it was a song he re-recorded at the Bel-Air hotel in 2008, so he clearly liked it.

About Rodney Jerkins sessions:
I don't know a lot as I haven't heard them. Brad Buxer and John Branca have heard them and told me about some of them. They both told me I was overstating when in an early draft I estimated there were about a dozen unreleased Darkchild tracks. They said it was probably about half of that that are releasable.

About John McClain:
Very little interaction with McClain. Almost all with Jim, Karen, Howard and John. I'd like to talk to him more though as he primarily oversees the music.

About Slave to the Rhythm (at the time, still unreleased. Remix leaked with no context):
John Branca told me the track originated with LA Reid and Babyface, and was later handed over to Jam and Lewis. It could be one of those songs that was kind of passed along to different collaborators during different album sessions (ala They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, etc) It seems like it was written or co-written by MJ to me as well.

Thought it might be worth sharing here!

Thank you very much, it's very interesting! So there would be about 5 unreleased Jerkins songs left... The trunk isn't as full as that in the end.

Have you been able to speak with Joe Vogel since?

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

Having read about the Invincible sessions, I always get the vibe that Mike wasn't as impressed with Darkchild as he was Teddy in 1991.

I think Michael was reaching out looking for a contemporary producer between 1997-2000 to give him that new sound. I remember reading that Mike wasn't keen on YRMW until it was sung into his ear. I'm sure I read in Damien's book Carole Bayer Sager had to convince Michael to meet with Rodney.

It didn't seem as much of collaboration as it was a question of Mike asking "how should I sound in 2001?" Then Darkchild and his team made songs to sound like Michael, rather than with him as he had with Teddy for Dangerous

 

[Derek1984]

Having read about the Invincible sessions, I always get the vibe that Mike wasn't as impressed with Darkchild as he was Teddy in 1991.

I think Michael was reaching out looking for a contemporary producer between 1997-2000 to give him that new sound. I remember reading that Mike wasn't keen on YRMW until it was sung into his ear. I'm sure I read in Damien's book Carole Bayer Sager had to convince Michael to meet with Rodney.

It didn't seem as much of collaboration as it was a question of Mike asking "how should I sound in 2001?" Then Darkchild and his team made songs to sound like Michael, rather than with him as he had with Teddy for Dangerous

Would've been interesting if Mike hooked up with The Neptunes for Invincible.

 

[Lotfi11k]

What happen with songs from 1993;deposition

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

Would've been interesting if Mike hooked up with The Neptunes for Invincible.

Yeah I think that would have been exciting to hear what they could have made together mate.

I really wish Mike kept working with Dr Freeze, those sessions in 1998 are incredible, vocally the best from Invincible

Also thanks for sharing that new information @Alec

 

[ChanceToDance]

I really wish Mike kept working with Dr Freeze, those sessions in 1998 are incredible, vocally the best from Invincible

Agreed. I was pleased to hear that MJ was still working with Dr Freeze before his death. One of the highlights from Invincible come from his sessions, both with released and unreleased songs.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Is this a real seminar leak? It seems nice and fake to me.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Would've been interesting if Mike hooked up with The Neptunes for Invincible.

We were so close to this. So close.

 

[ChanceToDance]

Is this a real seminar leak? It seems nice and fake to me.

I think the audio is real but the song is fake, the audio's quality is alright but then the song sounds distorted. And also the channel posts fake leaks mostly so it's pretty likely that it's a troll.

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Would've been interesting if Mike hooked up with The Neptunes for Invincible.

That wouldn't have even been interesting tbh. It just would've been good ole' music. Straight up one of the best records ever made.

Interesting would've been an actual work relationship with Kanye. Before his fame.

 

[AlwaysThere]

I don’t care for Pharrell or the Neptunes much. The beats they submitted that wound up going to Justin Timberlake weren’t up to MJ’s standards anyways.

I’d have liked to see MJ do something with Timbaland. Those two would’ve been a match made in hip-hop heaven.

 

[Scared of the Moon]

Is this a real seminar leak? It seems nice and fake to me.

It's real. It comes from a seminar from the year 2012. But I don't think it has anything to do with mj. It's just the Quincy song.

 

[threepea11]

random question, but does anyone know what differences the Quincy version of PoF has to the Demo of PoF, also how many songs did Quincy produce in Bad total? (Including unreleased songs)

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

It's real. It comes from a seminar from the year 2012. But I don't think it has anything to do with mj. It's just the Quincy song.

So why was it played there?

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

The beats they submitted that wound up going to Justin Timberlake weren’t up to MJ’s standards anyways.

You mean some of the best pop songs of this century?

 

[AlwaysThere]

You mean some of the best pop songs of this century?

Eh, different strokes for different folks. They’re good, but for an artist like MJ they’re below average in my opinion. I don’t want Pharrell anywhere near MJ music.

 

[DarylJoel_B]

Eh, different strokes for different folks. They’re good, but for an artist like MJ they’re below average in my opinion. I don’t want Pharrell anywhere near MJ music.

LMAO are you KIDDING??? i would give ANYTHING to hear michael sing rock your body especially the beatboxing part lol

 

[Mister_Jay_Tee]

Eh, different strokes for different folks. They’re good, but for an artist like MJ they’re below average in my opinion. I don’t want Pharrell anywhere near MJ music.

As compared to, Invincible. Idk man. Different strokes indeed maybe.

I mean, they're not the greatest songs ever, but if MJ had his hands in them, they definitely would've had a great collaboration. Pharrell certainly inspires more confidence than Darkchild, no disrespect. But maybe the early 2000s just weren't so enlightened. The late 2000s are aging much greater.

 

[AlwaysThere]

LMAO are you KIDDING??? i would give ANYTHING to hear michael sing rock your body especially the beatboxing part lol

“Rock Your Body” (and every other beat the Neptunes prepared) were instrumentals when MJ got them. They didn’t get a melody or lyrics until they were given to JT. If MJ held onto them, it would’ve been a completely different song.

As compared to, Invincible. Idk man. Different strokes indeed maybe.

I mean, they're not the greatest songs ever, but if MJ had his hands in them, they definitely would've had a great collaboration. Pharrell certainly inspires more confidence than Darkchild, no disrespect. But maybe the early 2000s just weren't so enlightened. The late 2000s are aging much greater.

I’ve always felt that the Pharrell beats were trying too hard to replicate Off the Wall. Like, “Rock Your Body” is great for a new artist like JT, but it would’ve been musically backward looking for MJ. Compared to the Darkchild tracks that, other than “You Rock My World,” all felt like efforts to push things forward. Personally, I think Darkchild was the better route of the two, though I still mourn that Dre and Timbaland never got in the studio with MJ.

 

[Pollonio]

So 6 songs. Xscape has already been released and counting GYWOOM that brings us to 4 songs. If we're generous and count the songs on TUC that brings us to 3 songs. There's a chance that there are 3 more Rodney Jerkins tracks we've never heard of that are in a releasable state.

And we have 6 names of Rodney Jerkins tracks : Get your weight off of me, Kick it, The Pain, Pressure, Get Around, Maybe we can do it (with P Diddy)
Some are rumored to have be rework for a new album in 2002/2003.

If the Estate mentions "half of a dozen tracks", it looks like the Rodney Jerkins reworks of Chicago 1945, Cheater and Get Around don't exist

 

[Bad1978]

Coming back to this. Short answer - it depends. On balance, I would say, yeah, go for it.

Depends on what your expectations are or what you want from a Michael book. If you are a veteran fan, you've read loads of Michael books, you know loads about his work and you want to be surprised by this book, maybe you won't get much out of it. Since Joe published his book there have been quite a few others that have avoided the tabloid trash approach and actually looked at Michael's work seriously. Joe's book must have been one of the first to do that but there is more choice now.

I haven't seen the first edition, except online, but I know it's really different. Lots of photos, seems to have a nice layout. Production values look high. Looks quite large format. I have the pbk 2019 edition. Low-ish production values, Really boring set of photos in the middle - the album covers plus one photo of Michael in the studio (not rare). The first edition has a foreword by Anthony de Curtis, in the 2nd edition that's gone.

I was a bit lukewarm about the book bc reading books about music isn't really my thing. Just started re-reading this. Had forgotten that I do like his writing style. He's an academic, a good writer, imo.

"As an artist, then, his work was about liberation. He wanted to free what was bound, awaken what was dormant. He wanted to break through barriers and limitations - any obstacle in the way of his ambition or imagination. He wanted to invigorate the body, mind and soul. This is what the music did for him personally ...

This was his gift as an artist: his ability to fully dissolve into the stories, the emotions, and the magic of his music - and to take people from all walks of life with him. He called this creative bond many things over the years: escapism, entertainment, showmanship, art. But ultimately, for Jackson, it was about sharing and receiving love."
(Joe Vogel)


Fair point. I'd still say, go for it.

Is the MJ book by Damien Shields any good?