Michael - The Great Album Debate

kreen

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Have you guys heard the new "Stay" demo that leaked? I'd never heard it before : its arrangements sound very "early". Could it be a real "Cascio demo" that was actually recorded in the Cascios' basement, before all of the post-production?
 

StellaJackson

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Have you guys heard the new "Stay" demo that leaked? I'd never heard it before : its arrangements sound very "early". Could it be a real "Cascio demo" that was actually recorded in the Cascios' basement, before all of the post-production?

It's not new. It's been around for more than two years. It is the version that they sold to Sony and the vocals don't sound any different to the final version.
 

SmoothGangsta

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Have you guys heard the new "Stay" demo that leaked? I'd never heard it before : its arrangements sound very "early". Could it be a real "Cascio demo" that was actually recorded in the Cascios' basement, before all of the post-production?

The intro snippet? Still sounds like the same fake voice to me...the vocals sound the same
 

SmoothGangsta

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Somebody just sent me a webpage with jason malachi's phone number, supposedly. Weird lol.
 

Paw

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Time for Teddy to call John McClain on all the mess he has created on the whole project behind the scene.
Go Teddy! Tell it like it is.
 

qbee

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Teddy isn't going to reveal anything. He is baiting like he always does. He contradicts and changes his story constantly. He hasn't even admitted the songs are fake. he is now back tracking. I can't stand him.
 

Lark

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

I am interested to know what he has to say because I am not so convinced that those tracks were not Michael singing. Yes, yes, I know there are some here that are totally certain it is fact that it wasn't Michael singing, and yes I am aware of the reasons people think this, but I am just not convinced either way. I think it is possible, but I am not going to join the lynch mob against anyone.

All that aside, I still feel that the Michael album was created with Michael's spirit at heart and I appreciate the songs. Some of them have even helped me through a hard time. I will be disappointed in them if it turns out that they were not really Michael, but I won't hate them. I understand that at the time it felt important to them to give out polished, finished songs that felt like Michael's songs. Everybody makes mistakes and if all that stuff is true, I am sure they regret it now.
 

Lark

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

I am interested to know what he has to say because I am not so convinced that those tracks were not Michael singing. Yes, yes, I know there are some here that are totally certain it is fact that it wasn't Michael singing, and yes I am aware of the reasons people think this, but I am just not convinced either way. I think it is possible, but I am not going to join the lynch mob against anyone.

All that aside, I still feel that the Michael album was created with Michael's spirit at heart and I appreciate the songs. Some of them have even helped me through a hard time. I will be disappointed in them if it turns out that they were not really Michael, but I won't hate them. I understand that at the time it felt important to them to give out polished, finished songs that felt like Michael's songs. Everybody makes mistakes and if all that stuff is true, I am sure they regret it now.

There is a reason why MJ wanted to work with Teddy Riley in the first place. His late 80s/early 90s pioneering New Jack Swing work was strong and had a big impact.

Teddy did have a significant impact on the sound of Dangerous. His signature style is all over the tracks they did together. Just compare the demo of Dangerous (the song) and the finished version. Michael himself said that Teddy was responsible for the change in sound.

This is all true, thank you for pointing it out.

Lark
 

StellaJackson

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

I am interested to know what he has to say because I am not so convinced that those tracks were not Michael singing. Yes, yes, I know there are some here that are totally certain it is fact that it wasn't Michael singing, and yes I am aware of the reasons people think this, but I am just not convinced either way. I think it is possible, but I am not going to join the lynch mob against anyone.

All that aside, I still feel that the Michael album was created with Michael's spirit at heart and I appreciate the songs. Some of them have even helped me through a hard time. I will be disappointed in them if it turns out that they were not really Michael, but I won't hate them. I understand that at the time it felt important to them to give out polished, finished songs that felt like Michael's songs. Everybody makes mistakes and if all that stuff is true, I am sure they regret it now.

The Michael album was created out of sheer greed. Michael's own children and mother requested that they not include those songs yet they were completely ignored because all they were interested in was the money they thought they were going to make.

All I will say with regards to the songs themselves is that I encourage you to listen to all 12. Doing so raises some serious questions beyond simple authenticity.
 

SmoothGangsta

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Teddy isn't going to reveal anything. He is baiting like he always does. He contradicts and changes his story constantly. He hasn't even admitted the songs are fake. he is now back tracking. I can't stand him.

I would obviously be very happy if he did, but I have to agree, I don't think he will.
 

Paw

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How would you know for sure he is not going to reveal anything, Qbee? You must have known by now nearly everyone involved with “Michael” album seemed to have an issue with John McClain. Teddy Riley’s latest tweets show no sign of going to state Cascio tracks to be fake, contrary to some fans’ wishful thinking. To me, It’s more likely he will call John McClain the mystery man at Estate out if he indeed reveals something.
I respect your opinion, but let’s put Cascio tracks aside. Teddy Riley was the finisher on “Michael” album, it was not his duty to confirm or deny anything other than to finish the job he was offered as he was not the one who created those songs. A lot of questions regarding vocal authenticity were reserved for Eddie Cascio, not for Teddy Riley. Teddy had his answers to some of them and actually revealed them shortly after “Breaking News” premiered. I don’t know what contradictions you mentioned are. Would you enlighten me with some?

Edited: Let’s try this. When “Breaking News” premiered, Teddy Riley was the only known celebrity fans were familiar with then and was flooded with all kinds of questions, criticism and insults. The finisher who didn’t create the songs got all the heat on himself all of a sudden. And fans even blamed him almost for everything. It was unfair and of course he would feel “man, I was set up!”
 
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AlwaysThere

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For the record, John McClain isn't the one to blame over the Cascio tracks -- it's John Branca. McClain never believed the Cascios were real and refused to be involved with them while putting MICHAEL together. Branca, meanwhile, pushed for their release and ultimately came out on top.

McClain is the only of the two executors, it seems, that has any understanding of what fans want. Branca should handle the business side while McClain should handle the creative side. Just for an example, look at This Is It, Behind the Mask and Much Too Soon. All gorgeous tracks that fans absolutely love. Of all of the producers Michael worked with, I would say he and Neff-U should chiefly produce a future album.
 

Paw

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AlwaysThere;3899321 said:
For the record, John McClain isn't the one to blame over the Cascio tracks -- it's John Branca. McClain never believed the Cascios were real and refused to be involved with them while putting MICHAEL together. Branca, meanwhile, pushed for their release and ultimately came out on top.

McClain is the only of the two executors, it seems, that has any understanding of what fans want. Branca should handle the business side while McClain should handle the creative side. Just for an example, look at This Is It, Behind the Mask and Much Too Soon. All gorgeous tracks that fans absolutely love. Of all of the producers Michael worked with, I would say he and Neff-U should chiefly produce a future album.

I mean the mess, not his opinion.

If you are talking about going against Michael's original vision, I think he was no different from others.

We'd better work together to get the issue resolved instead of being incompatible like water and fire.

Edited to add: Again Cascio tracks and musical tastes aside, more tracks including in a Michael Jackson album meant more money flowing into their producers’ pockets. Losers started rumors, winners attracted hatred. It was a political thing, wasn’t it? Fans had a lot more questions, not every one was simply about vocal authenticity. Give Teddy the benefit of the doubt before judging.
 
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StellaJackson

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For the record, John McClain isn't the one to blame over the Cascio tracks -- it's John Branca. McClain never believed the Cascios were real and refused to be involved with them while putting MICHAEL together. Branca, meanwhile, pushed for their release and ultimately came out on top.

McClain is the only of the two executors, it seems, that has any understanding of what fans want. Branca should handle the business side while McClain should handle the creative side. Just for an example, look at This Is It, Behind the Mask and Much Too Soon. All gorgeous tracks that fans absolutely love. Of all of the producers Michael worked with, I would say he and Neff-U should chiefly produce a future album.

Howard Weitzemann was also pushing for their inclusion.
 
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ivy

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For the record, John McClain isn't the one to blame over the Cascio tracks -- it's John Branca. McClain never believed the Cascios were real and refused to be involved with them while putting MICHAEL together. Branca, meanwhile, pushed for their release and ultimately came out on top.

interesting logic. McClain is an equal position executor. I would feel the person who think the songs are fake but gave up his position to be more to blame. Who cares what Branca thinks or what he wanted. Why couldn't McClain stand his ground and say no?
 

AlwaysThere

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

The estate is co-operated by Branca and McClain, and McClain didn't have anything to do with the Cascio tracks or their release. He refused to be involved with them because he doesn't believe they're Michael. Meanwhile Branca continued to push them forward. So if any hate is to be put towards any member of the estate, it should only fairly be pointed at Branca.

As a whole I would say that John McClain should remain an executor but Branca should step down. McClain has proved that artistically he is one of the best choices for the estate. Fan reception is largely positive for This Is It, Behind the Mask and Much Too Soon, all of which were produced by him. It is also to my understanding that McClain had a large role in the compilation of the Bad 25 project whereas Branca was the head honcho of Michael. In truth, I feel bad for him because he (as a part of the estate) is being called incompetent and things of the sort when he really is a better choice than Branca.

On another note, I think that the heads of the estate should be the trio of Brad Buxer, Michael Prince and John McClain. I'm sure Buxer and Prince have other things in their lives but just think about it. They are some of Michael's most acclaimed collaborators and I'm sure will do the best job of treating the fans.
 

Superstition

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I would love to know how the album came together, who chose the tracklist, etc. It's such a mess of a project that its hard to fathom how it even came to be. Sort of like those movies that are so bad you wonder how they came into existence.

As for John McClain's production, I will say that Much Too Soon (and I would guess Behind The Mask) sounds very true to the demo. If they insist on touching up or remixing songs for future albums, I wish they'd do it like that. If you told me that MJ finished Much Too Soon himself and played McClain's final mix, I'd probably be none the wiser.

It's hard to say why the Cascio tracks were released if there was truly a rift between the executors, but its even harder for me to understand how those tracks didn't elicit anything other than a big "WTF?" from anyone they were played for.
 

SmoothGangsta

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It's hard to say why the Cascio tracks were released if there was truly a rift between the executors, but its even harder for me to understand how those tracks didn't elicit anything other than a big "WTF?" from anyone they were played for.

They probably did go WTF, but money speaks louder than common sense and morals apparently.
 

WhoIsIt89

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Yea I doubt the rift between McClain and Branca was that big. If one of the executors had an issue with the authenticity of the songs. I doubt they would've been included, simple as that. At most one of them probably heard something and went "wait a minute" for a split second, then just swept it under the rug and kept things moving. Or the even more likely, they both were completely duped by Eddie due to Michael's history with his family.

As far as the contradictions Teddy made, one huge contradiction is that he said without a doubt the songs were Michael and blamed the voice on Melodyne. And kept up with this lie until only months ago. Now he was set up? Set up by whom? Set up to do what? It couldn't be to work on an album he didn't want to work on. He wanted to do this, he was broke, he needed to do this. So who exactly set him up? And again, to do what? He can only be talking about one thing and that's these 12 records.
 

Paw

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WhoIsIt89;3899835 said:
Yea I doubt the rift between McClain and Branca was that big. If one of the executors had an issue with the authenticity of the songs. I doubt they would've been included, simple as that. At most one of them probably heard something and went "wait a minute" for a split second, then just swept it under the rug and kept things moving. Or the even more likely, they both were completely duped by Eddie due to Michael's history with his family.

As far as the contradictions Teddy made, one huge contradiction is that he said without a doubt the songs were Michael and blamed the voice on Melodyne. And kept up with this lie until only months ago. Now he was set up? Set up by whom? Set up to do what? It couldn't be to work on an album he didn't want to work on. He wanted to do this, he was broke, he needed to do this. So who exactly set him up? And again, to do what? He can only be talking about one thing and that's these 12 records.

Set up by the whole situation without Jason Malachi’s involvement. If you ask me whom should be blamed most for all the mess, I’d say John McClain for sure.

Teddy Riley was the finisher whose main contribution was the music part, and he processed the vocals which were already processed by others prior to him to some extent to match the new instrumentation. He actually did a great job with what he was given. Teddy has given fans his opinion about Cascio tracks numerous times since “Breaking News” premiered, but some were unsatisfied with what he said and kept on bashing him harshly. He was fed up and broke out recently. I see no sign of Teddy going to state Cascio tracks to be fake in his latest tweets except calling somebody in charge of the aspects of music at Estate out. After “Michael”, Teddy obviously had a serious issue with Estate once asked about Michael’s new music projects. Who at Estate could irritate him that much?

As for Cascio tracks, I believe several producers, including Eddie Cascio, messed them up to some extent without bad intentions. As a newbie, Eddie had to deal with a veteran who seemed to be quite unhappy with his brother Frank before. Papa Dominic may have given him some wise advices, such as watching his mouth if he still wanted to stay in the game. Teddy also knew how dirty the business was and had to be very cautious.

I won’t give Jacksons much credit until they put money where their mouths are. You guys were talking about protecting your brother’s / uncle’s legacy. If you didn’t even bother filing a lawsuit for Michael’s sake, you were nothing but attention seekers. All you intended to do was sabotage the release like your buddy John McClain.

Like what Ivy said, if John McClain indeed believed Cascio tracks to be fake, why couldn't he stand his ground and say no?
 

StellaJackson

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Paw;3900156 said:
Set up by the whole situation without Jason Malachi’s involvement. If you ask me whom should be blamed most for all the mess, I’d say John McClain for sure.

Teddy Riley was the finisher whose main contribution was the music part, and he processed the vocals which were already processed by others prior to him to some extent to match the new instrumentation. He actually did a great job with what he was given. Teddy has given fans his opinion about Cascio tracks numerous times since “Breaking News” premiered, but some were unsatisfied with what he said and kept on bashing him harshly. He was fed up and broke out recently. I see no sign of Teddy going to state Cascio tracks to be fake in his latest tweets except calling somebody in charge of the aspects of music at Estate out. After “Michael”, Teddy obviously had a serious issue with Estate once asked about Michael’s new music projects. Who at Estate could irritate him that much?

As for Cascio tracks, I believe several producers, including Eddie Cascio, messed them up to some extent without bad intentions. As a newbie, Eddie had to deal with a veteran who seemed to be quite unhappy with his brother Frank before. Papa Dominic may have given him some wise advices, such as watching his mouth if he still wanted to stay in the game. Teddy also knew how dirty the business was and had to be very cautious.

I won’t give Jacksons much credit until they put money where their mouths are. You guys were talking about protecting your brother’s / uncle’s legacy. If you didn’t even bother filing a lawsuit for Michael’s sake, you were nothing but attention seekers. All you intended to do was sabotage the release like your buddy John McClain.

Like what Ivy said, if John McClain indeed believed Cascio tracks to be fake, why couldn't he stand his ground and say no?

The vocals are barely processed at all. They sound just like Jason Cupeta because that's who it is.
 

Pentum

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Vocals are hardly processed. Not anymore processed than the usual in today's music. I will show you soon.
 

kreen

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

I've talked about this before, but here goes :

We've been whining and arguing about these songs for three years now. If the same situation were taking place right now (suspicious songs being part of an artist's official discography) with any other dead artist -- Beatles, Elvis, Frank Sinatra, etc. -- there would be a lawsuit about it.

Why don't we finance an official lawsuit? Couldn't we use a "Kickstarter" kind of deal to get the money together and get something going?

I know I'm known around here as a Cascio defender, but even I want to get to the bottom of this. I want to know, and I want to know for sure.

I know there are some who say they don't need official confirmation, because they're already sure they're right. But surely even they would like whoever is responsible to have to face the consequences of what they've done.

I know the question will be : who leads this? I'm married and have 2 children, and I already do a lot of unpaid work : I can't take charge. But I can contribute my time and my money.

I guess the first step would be from somebody in the United Stated to talk to a lawyer specializing in those sorts of issues.
 

Petrarose

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Re: Teddy Riley Tweets about MJ Estate and the infamous posthumous album - Michael

Kreen that would be a big problem. What are we looking for, to see if the songs are Michael's? The experts will then say their work is not an exact science. If the song has some Michael & some impersonator filling in parts, they will say well X% is Michael, so it is a Michael song. They will come up with an excuse for everything. I feel the best thing is to take the songs and have someone who trained Michael's voice listen to them, just for our own personal satisfaction. Also, I really don't want to go into any ventures with an external body like a family.

I have always felt that during a period when Michael had not done any serious voice work with his coach, he was running through some song segments and left them on a recording device in that person's house. C kept them, and since they were just fragments, he asked you know who to fill in all the empty spaces. He went to the estate and said I have his latest music. Since they knew Michael loved the family, he stayed with them, he brought them all over the world, & C was an assistant for a time, they took them and paid him for it. To them, this close friend would have the real McCoy. I don't think they really listened to the music at first, because any sane person would know you don't pay (forgot how much million now) millions for that. It was only after they began listening to it to use that they found something was really wrong. One of Michael's bodyguards did say that when he went to live with that Prince after the trial, Micheal and the Prince did sing something that sounded very bad. Maybe that is the same situation with Eddie. The estate should have said to Eddie that they wanted to listen to the thing first. After they listened, they should have told him to keep it.

Well let's see if TR have anything more to say. Since everything gone quiet, I guess he has moved on to other things.
 
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