Michael - The Great Album Debate

filmandmusic

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At what pages in this thread can I see the evidence that the 3 disputed tracks aren't MJ singing? If there is any evidence to begin with...
I personally can't be sure who's right or wrong which disappoint me as I have been listening to Michael for over 30 years now. I also find especially monster and breaking the news sounding very weird but why would there be 3 fake tracks if they had at that point still the 8 Xscape tracks to use?
Anyway I hope it is not him as it is an awful song.

Overall I'd pick the Neff U tracks as the best of the disc but they are not the original songs right? I mean are there any tracks on this record that MJ approved of before he passed away?
 
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Hess

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At what pages in this thread can I see the evidence that the 3 disputed tracks aren't MJ singing? If there is any evidence to begin with...
I personally can't be sure who's right or wrong which disappoint me as I have been listening to Michael for over 30 years now. I also find especially monster and breaking the news sounding very weird but why would there be 3 fake tracks if they had at that point still the 8 Xscape tracks to use?
Anyway I hope it is not him as it is an awful song.

Overall I'd pick the Neff U tracks as the best of the disc but they are not the original songs right? I mean are there any tracks on this record that MJ approved of before he passed away?
The fake songs was given to The Estate and SONY by Cascio. There is no doubt The Estate and SONY was tricked. They had absolutely no desire to release fake songs. They simply just trusted the wrong person - because he was actually a long-time friend to MJ, so there was no need to question Cascio.

BUT - as soon as producers and fans and others questioned the vocals, the 3 songs should have been removed instantly. But sadly The Estate and SONY kept them, and after they had first been released it was almost impossible to remove them again.

But Cascio is the one to blame - not The Estate.
 

mj_frenzy

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The fake songs was given to The Estate and SONY by Cascio. There is no doubt The Estate and SONY was tricked. They had absolutely no desire to release fake songs. They simply just trusted the wrong person - because he was actually a long-time friend to MJ, so there was no need to question Cascio.

BUT - as soon as producers and fans and others questioned the vocals, the 3 songs should have been removed instantly. But sadly The Estate and SONY kept them, and after they had first been released it was almost impossible to remove them again.

But Cascio is the one to blame - not The Estate.
Sony Music and the Estate are not going to remove these 3 Cascio songs because court ruled that they did not know if Michael Jackson sang on them or not, and as a result they were not liable for these charges against these songs.

Court also ruled that Sony Music and the Estate can legally continue to sell these songs under Michael Jackson's name even if these songs were fake.
 

AlwaysThere

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Cascio and the Estate are to blame, not Sony.

When it comes to choosing what material gets released, the Estate calls the shots and has final say. There are usually Sony representatives involved at some stage of the process — most notably senior VP John Doelp, who helped comb through the vaults for both Bad 25 and Xscape — but at the end of the day, they just release whatever they’re given. I recall hearing that Sony actually protested the remixes on Bad 25, but Branca and co. doubled down on them. The inclusion of the Cascio tracks on Michael falls squarely on Branca’s shoulders.

Also, while I understand the moral desire to have those songs removed, some people need to take off their fan glasses and look at this objectively. Pulling these songs would be a multimillion dollar endeavor that would open up both Sony and the Estate to countless lawsuits. They’ll never come off. I agree they should, but they won’t.

Honestly, I really feel as though there are more important things to worry about. Leaving Neverland 2 poses a much bigger risk at harming MJ’s legacy than three decade-old songs that most people have no idea exist. Let Damien Shields go on one of his biweekly Twitter rants about them; it’s irrelevant in the long run.
 

AlwaysThere

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But which one of the 3 is the original "water", the one that is supposedly so good it could have been comeback worthy?
That’s “H2O,” also known as “Dark Lady,” recorded around 2007-08. “Water” is a completely separate song, recorded around 2009. It gets very confusing, lol.
At what pages in this thread can I see the evidence that the 3 disputed tracks aren't MJ singing? If there is any evidence to begin with...
I personally can't be sure who's right or wrong which disappoint me as I have been listening to Michael for over 30 years now. I also find especially monster and breaking the news sounding very weird but why would there be 3 fake tracks if they had at that point still the 8 Xscape tracks to use?
Anyway I hope it is not him as it is an awful song.

Overall I'd pick the Neff U tracks as the best of the disc but they are not the original songs right? I mean are there any tracks on this record that MJ approved of before he passed away?
Sadly, there is no concrete evidence either way.

I always looked at the situation like this: the goal of Michael was to “complete” the album MJ was working on when he died. Unfortunately, most of the songs were either unavailable or unfinished. So when Eddie Cascio, a man who knew MJ for decades, pulls up with a dozen vocally-finished songs allegedly recorded in 2007, Branca leapt at the chance.

All of the songs on Michael were reproduced after MJ died; none of the mixes existed when he was alive.
 

filmandmusic

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Honestly, I really feel as though there are more important things to worry about. Leaving Neverland 2 poses a much bigger risk at harming MJ’s legacy than three decade-old songs that most people have no idea exist. Let Damien Shields go on one of his biweekly Twitter rants about them; it’s irrelevant in the long run.

I wonder what is on the cards for leaving neverland 2, the stories by Robson and Safechuck have been told so a “sequel” could only mean new accusers have come forward, that would definitely be the final nail in the coffin.
 

filmandmusic

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I've been on YouTube trying to find the original versions or demo's of the songs on "Michael". I found versions of much too soon, the way you love me and Hollywood tonight. So this leaves 4 songs that are not yet heard in its original state, right?

Anyway as with the Escape album I greatly prefer the original songs, especially Hollywood tonight is spectacularly good.
 

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Sony and The Estate were informed by many people who were working on/ had heard the songs that they didn't believe it was MJ singing, yet still decided to proceed and even released a false statement in which they said everyone agreed it was MJ. To say they share no blame is laughable.
 

Galactus123

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I wonder what is on the cards for leaving neverland 2, the stories by Robson and Safechuck have been told so a “sequel” could only mean new accusers have come forward, that would definitely be the final nail in the coffin.
I remember hearing that they wanted to film in court so the sequel could be about that. They will probably say how unfairly they were treated because the cases were dismissed.
 

filmandmusic

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I remember hearing that they wanted to film in court so the sequel could be about that. They will probably say how unfairly they were treated because the cases were dismissed.
Well it might get a razzie award for best short film then
 

Hess

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The fake songs were NOT "given" to The Estate and SONY by Cascio. They were sold. For a lot of $$$.
Which just makes Cascio even a bigger idiot... - Yet another of MJ's trusted friends who stabed him in the back and earned money.

If I was lawyer for the MJ estate and one of MJ's close friends came and told me he had some songs MJ worked on, I would also believe him. - And let be honest - many non-MJ-fans can't hear this is not MJ. - MANY MJ fans still think it is 100 % MJ... - So I can't see how you can blame others than Cascio really. - Me myself was tricked at first. Probably because I simply could not believe fake MJ vocals would end up on an official MJ album... I had to listen many many times, headphones and all till I was convinced it was not MJ. Vibrato wrong, pronunciation was of some places etc. but I would probably be considered a die-hard fan, been listening to MJ daily for more than 25 years, more likely since I was 5 - that would make it 30 years. Yet I was almost tricked.

Cascio is the devil here IMO.
 

AlwaysThere

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I was re-listening to the Cascio tracks the other day and it truly boggles my mind that anybody (including and mainly Eddie) thought they’d fool us. Of all the impersonators out there, they chose the worst one lmfao. “Keep Your Head Up” is the most aggressively bad in that regard.
 

SmoothGangsta

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Which just makes Cascio even a bigger idiot... - Yet another of MJ's trusted friends who stabed him in the back and earned money.

If I was lawyer for the MJ estate and one of MJ's close friends came and told me he had some songs MJ worked on, I would also believe him. - And let be honest - many non-MJ-fans can't hear this is not MJ. - MANY MJ fans still think it is 100 % MJ... - So I can't see how you can blame others than Cascio really. - Me myself was tricked at first. Probably because I simply could not believe fake MJ vocals would end up on an official MJ album... I had to listen many many times, headphones and all till I was convinced it was not MJ. Vibrato wrong, pronunciation was of some places etc. but I would probably be considered a die-hard fan, been listening to MJ daily for more than 25 years, more likely since I was 5 - that would make it 30 years. Yet I was almost tricked.

Cascio is the devil here IMO.

You really got to have your blinders on to a lot of stuff to have this opinion tbh.
 

OnirMJ

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In my opinion everyone involved in this scheme is responsible. The Cascios, James Porte, Jason Malachi and Stuart Brawley are the ones that created these forgeries and they are to be blamed for that and for selling out and backstabbing Michael. They are horrible people with no morals, but I understand them, they wanted to make money. Especially the Cascio brothers who obviously did create some demos for Michael and Michael probably did promise them or tell them that he will listen or even record some of their songs if they were any good. So after Michael died, they were frustrated because their golden opportunity to make big money was gone, so they came up with a plan to finish the songs they did create for MJ and even record whole bunch of new ones in 2010.

Sony are of course also to be blamed, primarily because of their negligence. They knew the songs could possibly be fake, because Jackie Jackson, John McClain and many other family members expressed their concerns about the songs. And also all of the professionals who were at the listening - especially Michael Prince and others. But again, they are a company and their main goal is to earn money. So in my opinion that is understandable as well.

And the main villain and the most responsible person is John Branca (or The Estate) because his job is to protect Michael Jackson and his legacy. And he insisted to release these songs even though many people expressed their concerns - John McClain, Jackie Jackson, The Jacksons, Katherine, 3T and many producers and studio engineers like Cory Rooney, Michael Prince etc. And then even after he learned that the songs were fake, he did nothing. Not even apologizing. Not removing them. Not suing the Cascios. Nothing! He just kept pretending like nothing happened and kept lying, denying and silencing the people. So in my opinion he (and The Estate) are the main culprits and the most responsible people for this mess.
 

AlwaysThere

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I can’t blame the Estate for jumping at the opportunity to buy a dozen previously unknown songs from 2007. Hell, I can’t even blame them for trying to convince themselves that they’re legit. But I can and will blame them for:
  • ignoring the countless musicians, engineers, producers, songwriters, and family members who dismissed the tracks as fake;
  • allegedly faking a forensic vocal analysis;
  • lying about how MJ’s collaborators responded to the tracks; and
  • still releasing them, even after global criticism.
After “Breaking News” dropped, the Estate should’ve said, “We made a lapse in judgment, and we apologize. The album will be delayed 1-2 months while we reassess the track list.” Sure, it still would’ve been a boneheaded move to include them in the first place, and it would’ve cost money, but at least it would’ve shown that they’re willing to acknowledge their faults and do right.

Honestly, I don’t know who I’d call the biggest villain in this situation, or even how I’d rank them. Cascio is the number one reason this controversy even exists, and betrayed a lifelong friend… but Jason Malachi willingly participated in counterfeit songs… but the songs might not have made it to the Estate if Stuart Brawley and Frank Dileo didn’t vouch for them… but they wouldn’t have even come out if not for Branca… but the situation wouldn’t have been worsened if Teddy Riley didn’t put his name on the line and publicly defend them…
 

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Instead of releasing the Cascio tracks, I wish the above two songs were released on the Michael album instead, as they were worked on during the production of that album. The Michael album versions of Do You Know Where Your Children Are and She Was Loving Me aka Chicago are better than both the original and remixed versions released on the Xscape album, in my opinion.
 

AlwaysThere

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Controversially, I think both of the “official” versions of “Chicago” (the ones Cory Rooney signed off on) are horrible. The demo has no energy whatsoever, and the 2010 remix is basically a wall of sound with no creativity or musicality. I absolutely adore the Timbaland remix, weirdly enough.

The leaked cut of “Do You Know” is absolutely perfect though. It expands on the demo but retains the original feel. Yet another reason why John McClain should be the lead producer for every posthumous album.
 

Robbsaber01

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While I get the logistical reasons why the cascio tracks are still on the album it still bothers me. Can't imagine any other artist that has false tracks tied to them.
 

filmandmusic

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I think the original Chicago is the best song on Xscape. I love the atmospheric sound and laid back vibe it has, It's a great track in the car on a long ride nodding your head on the mid tempo groove. Vocally it doesn't seem finished yet but that's only a minor complaint.
 

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Boney M's Bobby Farrell wasn't singing himself, too. Interestingly both, Milli Vanilli & Boney M, were founded by German record producer Frank Farian.
 
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The fake songs was given to The Estate and SONY by Cascio. There is no doubt The Estate and SONY was tricked. They had absolutely no desire to release fake songs. They simply just trusted the wrong person - because he was actually a long-time friend to MJ, so there was no need to question Cascio.

BUT - as soon as producers and fans and others questioned the vocals, the 3 songs should have been removed instantly. But sadly The Estate and SONY kept them, and after they had first been released it was almost impossible to remove them again.

But Cascio is the one to blame - not The Estate.

I find it downright sad that the Cascios did this. Before that stuff happened I thought highly of them, as in knowing they were like a family for Michael and cared for him and were there for him.

But I guess.....money....it makes some do strange things.
 
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