MSG 30th 2001: Dancing Machine?

Themidwestcowboy

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mj_frenzy;4259452 said:
It was also a particular incident (concerning the shooting of the ‘You Rock My World’ music video) that upset him greatly at that time.

It took place few months before the MSG shows (summer of 2001), when the team that was about to make that music video demanded that MJ had to make specific cosmetic changes on his face (through make up) in order to look good on that video.

They wanted, among other things, to put putty on his nose (which is a make up product filler for that area), but also to use make up in order to darken his skin.

When MJ learned about those demands, he became so upset that he locked himself in the bathroom crying & refusing to get out, while he was throwing various things in there.

He thought that the team saw him as an ugly man, & that caused him an additional, enormous psychological trauma.

So big was that psychological trauma that in the music video (while singing & dancing) he was persistently trying to hide his face.

That psychological trauma (caused by those team’s demands for that music video) continued to have a very bad effect on him even during those two MSG shows in September.

Maybe you should start with saying that this is an uncorroborated rumor. I frankly find that silly. MJ had been that light since the early 90's and all of a sudden they wanted to darken his skin?
 

NatureCriminal7896

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The story about YRMW is true. they wanted to change his nose i think for the music video because they felt he didn't look good or something. Michael was hurt by this and he indeed did lock himself in the bathroom crying saying things like:"i'm a monster and what the f*** wrong with me." :(

Michael was beautiful inside out and those who said he needed to change his face were buttholes. i think the people where from Sony i think. yeah Sony is full of crap even Michael did alot of speech on Sony and how they did him. i think Prince had the same problem too with warner bros.

these companies are crazy. it's best just to have your own company because i believe these companies are out there to get you mostly if you're black/african-american and that's really sad to be honest. smh.
 
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kreen

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He absolutely was using something that made him slurry...if that's the right term. Either that or he was pretending.

There's a real horrible video of MJ with Liz arriving at the MSG concert where he speaks to a reporter from MTV. I haven't seen the video for years now it seems to have entirely disappeared but I was shocked when I first saw it.

He had his fly open when he arrived on the red carpet. You can see Liz Taylor notices it and kinda stares at it.
 

Themidwestcowboy

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NatureCriminal7896;4259500 said:
The story about YRMW is true. they wanted to change his nose i think for the music video because they felt he didn't look good or something. Michael was hurt by this and he indeed did lock himself in the bathroom crying saying things like:"i'm a monster and what the f*** wrong with me." :(

Michael was beautiful inside out and those who said he needed to change his face were buttholes. i think the people where from Sony i think. yeah Sony is full of crap even Michael did alot of speech on Sony and how they did him. i think Prince had the same problem too with warner bros.

these companies are crazy. it's best just to have your own company because i believe these companies are out there to get you mostly if you're black/african-american and that's really sad to be honest. smh.

I’m not saying it’s true or not true but you can’t Take uncorroborated rumors and pass them as facts. That’s not how it works.
 

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mj_frenzy;4259452 said:
It was also a particular incident (concerning the shooting of the ‘You Rock My World’ music video) that upset him greatly at that time.

It took place few months before the MSG shows (summer of 2001), when the team that was about to make that music video demanded that MJ had to make specific cosmetic changes on his face (through make up) in order to look good on that video.

They wanted, among other things, to put putty on his nose (which is a make up product filler for that area), but also to use make up in order to darken his skin.

When MJ learned about those demands, he became so upset that he locked himself in the bathroom crying & refusing to get out, while he was throwing various things in there.

He thought that the team saw him as an ugly man, & that caused him an additional, enormous psychological trauma.

Again, would you please learn to state sources!

That's from Frank Cascios book "My Friend Michael" (2011). He claims that it was (now MJ estate co-executor) John McClain who suggested that. We also know that after Michaels death, John McClain was against the songs of Franks brother Eddie, and Frank states in the book that he believed the song were real. So it can't be ruled out that there is some connection between that mess and the existence of this story.


So big was that psychological trauma that in the music video (while singing & dancing) he was persistently trying to hide his face.

That psychological trauma (caused by those team’s demands for that music video) continued to have a very bad effect on him even during those two MSG shows in September.


That's your personal speculation stated as facts.......

It was also said that Michael was not very much in control or even involved in the production / postproduction of the YRMW music video. That would include editing. Besides that, in the long version of the video his face is shown in full several times.
 
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john13th

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He was only 43 at the time of the MSG concert. Hardly old. He did look older than his age at the time though I agree. It wasn't a good time for him appearance wise. He looked much better and younger just a few years later.

Remember when he had gone to Bahrain after the trial? He looked wonderful and so young.

Something was very off with him in 2001 though.

Did he also appeared to be off in the United We Stand concert a month later same year? When he performed What More Can I Give and Man In The Mirror?
 

wonderouzmj

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Did he also appeared to be off in the United We Stand concert a month later same year? When he performed What More Can I Give and Man In The Mirror?
Now thats a damn good question. I would love to see his state there vs this. Why the hell didnt they even broadcast that & mitm?
 

mj_frenzy

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Glanni;4259477 said:
what a bullsh!t tabloid story are you spreading here???

Themidwestcowboy;4259493 said:
Maybe you should start with saying that this is an uncorroborated rumor. I frankly find that silly. MJ had been that light since the early 90's and all of a sudden they wanted to darken his skin?

Themidwestcowboy;4259527 said:
I’m not saying it’s true or not true but you can’t Take uncorroborated rumors and pass them as facts. That’s not how it works.

Electro;4259543 said:
Again, would you please learn to state sources!

That's from Frank Cascios book "My Friend Michael" (2011). He claims that it was (now MJ estate co-executor) John McClain who suggested that. We also know that after Michaels death, John McClain was against the songs of Franks brother Eddie, and Frank states in the book that he believed the song were real. So it can't be ruled out that there is some connection between that mess and the existence of this story.

That's your personal speculation stated as facts.......

It was also said that Michael was not very much in control or even involved in the production / postproduction of the YRMW music video. That would include editing. Besides that, in the long version of the video his face is shown in full several times.

That particular incident of the ‘You Rock My World’ music video has not been refuted by anyone who was involved in its making.

It has not been refuted by Karen Faye, or John McClain, or Paul Hunter, or even by the rest of the staff that worked on that music video.

Also, MJ was not very much in control, or even involved in the production/post-production of that music video because he felt so upset by the way the team treated him.

Unfavourable incidents (like, the shooting of that music video) tend to be eagerly dismissed by some fans as being just tabloid stories, or rumours - that is quite understandable & of course a rather predictable reaction.

Robbsaber01;4259454 said:
I had no idea about that. Explains why YRMW was shot that way. Smh Thats just beyond rude and disrespectful.

I remember hearing that story about Mj being on something before those concerts. Wasnt sure if it was true. You can tell something was off though.

ChrisC;4259455 said:
He absolutely was using something that made him slurry...if that's the right term. Either that or he was pretending.

It was mainly because he was under the influence of Demerol (you can read what I posted earlier about that).

ChrisC;4259455 said:
There's a real horrible video of MJ with Liz arriving at the MSG concert where he speaks to a reporter from MTV. I haven't seen the video for years now it seems to have entirely disappeared but I was shocked when I first saw it.

The impact of Demerol on him was so big & fresh on him (while entering in the company of Liz Taylor) that he could even hardly walk, as we can see he actually staggers because of that drug.

That video you are referring to is still available here:

[video=youtube;5SIj9zQlnyI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SIj9zQlnyI[/video]
 

john13th

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One thing I don't get either is compared to what has been said about MSG concerts is that when Michael performed at VMA 2001 with Nsync, he looked very energetic and on to it. Something he was willing to do and not on drugs at all and when I looked at the VMA date it was on September 6th, the day before the first MSG concert where he appeared to be off and on drugs. Which is even more strange to me. I mean what happened there and if he wasn't willing to make great performance in first MSG, why would he even want to do a great performance in VMA. Why do it at all?

 

NatureCriminal7896

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Themidwestcowboy;4259527 said:
I’m not saying it’s true or not true but you can’t Take uncorroborated rumors and pass them as facts. That’s not how it works

I understand you don't have to be rude to me if you are saying that to sound rude. i believe it's true because it's talks about alot and one fan even called Sony. if it's not true then it's not true and we can move on and ignore it. that's media and we should know by now.
 

mj_frenzy

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That's not the video I'm referring to. Although clearly was filmed on the same night. The other one is much worse.

Okay.

I have never seen the other one which is much worse.

One thing I don't get either is compared to what has been said about MSG concerts is that when Michael performed at VMA 2001 with Nsync, he looked very energetic and on to it. Something he was willing to do and not on drugs at all and when I looked at the VMA date it was on September 6th, the day before the first MSG concert where he appeared to be off and on drugs. Which is even more strange to me. I mean what happened there and if he wasn't willing to make great performance in first MSG, why would he even want to do a great performance in VMA. Why do it at all?

MJ performed at the Video Music Awards 2001 with NSYNC as a teaser for his two upcoming MSG shows.

But, that was not really a great performance, either.

He even made at least two mistakes, which are too many for such a very brief performance that lasted only half a minute.

Notice how he missed the first cue (0:22 - 0:23), but also how he missed the final cue (0:48 - 0:49).
 

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mj_frenzy;4259586 said:
That particular incident of the ‘You Rock My World’ music video has not been refuted by anyone who was involved in its making.
It has not been refuted by Karen Faye, or John McClain, or Paul Hunter, or even by the rest of the staff that worked on that music video.
Yep, a claim not being refuted always means it's 100% proven fact. :D


mj_frenzy;4259586 said:
Also, MJ was not very much in control, or even involved in the production/post-production of that music video because he felt so upset by the way the team treated him.
And again, that's a jump to a conclusion, speculation presented as fact. A classic mj_frency. :D
But hey, as Karen Faye, John McClain, Paul Hunter don't refute it, it must be true.

I'm not saying that it's not possible that that was the reason that Michael wasn't as much involved as he used to be in his video productions. But WE (incl. YOU, mj_frency) don't KNOW. Michael also wasn't as involved with song writing on the Invicible album as he used to be... can that ONLY mean that he was upset with something, or possibly a row of other reasons as well? (rhetorical question)


mj_frenzy;4259586 said:
Unfavourable incidents (like, the shooting of that music video) tend to be eagerly dismissed by some fans as being just tabloid stories, or rumours - that is quite understandable & of course a rather predictable reaction.

True, but what I and others here are dismissing is YOUR way of presenting your personal speculations (however likely correct they are or not) as stone cold facts. Again and again.
 

ChrisC

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Notice how he missed the first cue (0:22 - 0:23), but also how he missed the final cue (0:48 - 0:49).

The final one I've never been able to work out if it was intentional or not. If unintentional it is WAY off.
 

lubyss

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well to the POP performance I have to say YEEES,.. love the energy, BUT... I think he missed the cues because it wasn´t rehearsed, and I don´t know why They putted a chair there for him at the end...

To MSG... Karren said that he was late that night, drugged and sleepy at his hotel room, didn´t want to perform with brothers, still after all these years, their relationships were not great…
 

Themidwestcowboy

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The final one I've never been able to work out if it was intentional or not. If unintentional it is WAY off.

Although I think the whole thing was a bit odd I cut MJ some slack because it wasn't his song and he probably didn't know all the breaks and stops. Given that they didn't rehearse it..
 

ChrisC

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Although I think the whole thing was a bit odd I cut MJ some slack because it wasn't his song and he probably didn't know all the breaks and stops. Given that they didn't rehearse it..

Why didn't he rehearse anything?
 

kai

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Why didn't he rehearse anything?

seems like it was just like..

"hey mike, you can come on stage with us... oh it's not complicated you just gonna do some cool moves.. alright."
 

somewhereinthedark

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mj_frenzy;4259452 said:
It was also a particular incident (concerning the shooting of the ‘You Rock My World’ music video) that upset him greatly at that time.

It took place few months before the MSG shows (summer of 2001), when the team that was about to make that music video demanded that MJ had to make specific cosmetic changes on his face (through make up) in order to look good on that video.

They wanted, among other things, to put putty on his nose (which is a make up product filler for that area), but also to use make up in order to darken his skin.

When MJ learned about those demands, he became so upset that he locked himself in the bathroom crying & refusing to get out, while he was throwing various things in there.

He thought that the team saw him as an ugly man, & that caused him an additional, enormous psychological trauma.

So big was that psychological trauma that in the music video (while singing & dancing) he was persistently trying to hide his face.

That psychological trauma (caused by those team’s demands for that music video) continued to have a very bad effect on him even during those two MSG shows in September.

Is this based on FACTS or rumors? I’ve never heard this before. Who is the source?
 

wonderouzmj

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I'm loving this conversation. But imo idk what was up with that pop performance. I thought it had something to do with him not having an earpiece like the situation on this is it. New technology even in 01
 

mj_frenzy

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Electro;4259672 said:
Yep, a claim not being refuted always means it's 100% proven fact. :D

And again, that's a jump to a conclusion, speculation presented as fact. A classic mj_frency. :D
But hey, as Karen Faye, John McClain, Paul Hunter don't refute it, it must be true.

I'm not saying that it's not possible that that was the reason that Michael wasn't as much involved as he used to be in his video productions. But WE (incl. YOU, mj_frency) don't KNOW. Michael also wasn't as involved with song writing on the Invicible album as he used to be... can that ONLY mean that he was upset with something, or possibly a row of other reasons as well? (rhetorical question)

True, but what I and others here are dismissing is YOUR way of presenting your personal speculations (however likely correct they are or not) as stone cold facts. Again and again.

Firstly, you even misspelled my username twice.

Now, listen to me:

Such stories (like the drama surrounding the shooting of that music video) provide to us the missing pieces of the puzzle, pieces which make things on the whole finally make better sense regarding a given era of MJ’s life.

Besides, Frank Cascio did not need to come up with a fake story in his book, especially with a story involving so many living persons because if it was fake it would have been refuted by any of them in no time.

Keep in mind that, according to Frank Cascio, MJ cursed a lot during that time (including, during that incident), which ties with many other accounts that were included on Mike Smallcombe’s ‘Making Michael’ book.

Frank Cascio aimed at providing all these behind stories that eventually explain MJ’s public actions & behaviour.

somewhereinthedark;4259716 said:
Is this based on FACTS or rumors? I’ve never heard this before. Who is the source?

It is based on facts, taken from Frank Cascio book ‘My Friend Michael’.
 

SoCav

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Themidwestcowboy;4259755 said:
I like it when it's not rehearsed like when he did both James Brown appearances. It was great seeing MJ being spontaneous again.
Me too, but MJ didn't like that. I think the only reason he agreed to dance spontaneously at the BET Awards was because James Brown asked him, and he was his idol.

The NSync cameo wasn't a spontaneous moment like that, it was clearly planned. Given how much of a perfectionist MJ would usually be when it came to award show performances, it is surprising that this performance was quite sloppy (though, like you, I also enjoyed it - warts and all - exactly because it seemed unrehearsed). It's also noteworthy that they had a chair ready for him, and rushed to instantly hand him a drink.

2001 to 2003 has always been a sad period, imo. Whatever was going on, he clearly was not in a good place. It's the only time in his life where he did not seem like himself.

mj_frenzy;4259756 said:
It is based on facts, taken from Frank Cascio book ‘My Friend Michael’.
A single person's claim is not proven fact. Particularly when the source is a guy who has shown he has no problem with shamelessly lying when it suits him (when he defended and made up ridiculous and blatantly rubbish excuses for the Cascio tracks).
 

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lubyss;4259696 said:
To MSG... Karren said that he was late that night, drugged and sleepy at his hotel room, didn´t want to perform with brothers, still after all these years, their relationships were not great…

Everyone keep saying Michael and his brothers relationship were bad. i know the thing about him and Jermaine but what about the others? did Michael really had a bad relationship with his family? i know he did with his dad.
 

NatureCriminal7896

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The early 2000's of Michael didn't seem like himself. maybe that's because it was before and after those allegations and trials. :( he was only 43 so he wasn't that old he was much very young plus he was also a dad too now so he had to look after the kids. being a parent is alot stress. 3 by the way. two children and a baby. i mean come on think about all of that.
 
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Annita

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2001 to 2003 has always been a sad period, imo. Whatever was going on, he clearly was not in a good place. It's the only time in his life where he did not seem like himself.

It really was and he really was not in shape to promote a new album and his look at the time did not help. It seemed he did not felt well in his skin.
1999 would habe been a perfect time to bring out his new album. He was in perfect shape at the Michael and friends concerts. He waited really to long and 2001, 6 years after the last album he was in pressure to bring it out and could not delay to a better time in his life.
 

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mj_frenzy;4259756 said:
Firstly, you even misspelled my username twice.

Now, listen to me:


I sense a narcissistic condition.


mj_frenzy;4259756 said:
Such stories (like the drama surrounding the shooting of that music video) provide to us the missing pieces of the puzzle, pieces which make things on the whole finally make better sense regarding a given era of MJ’s life.

Besides, Frank Cascio did not need to come up with a fake story in his book, especially with a story involving so many living persons because if it was fake it would have been refuted by any of them in no time.

Keep in mind that, according to Frank Cascio, MJ cursed a lot during that time (including, during that incident), which ties with many other accounts that were included on Mike Smallcombe’s ‘Making Michael’ book.

Frank Cascio aimed at providing all these behind stories that eventually explain MJ’s public actions & behaviour.


You keep ignoring my point.

I have actually read Franks book and found it interesting and (besides some remaining doubts about that John McClain story) believeable.

The point of my criticism towards you is that you've repeatedly shown not to be able to differentiate between facts and your additional spectulation based on them. Just because you have made your mind up about the probability of a certain speculation, it doesn't turn that speculation into fact.

A fact: Frank Cascio wrote this.

A speculation: It's true, and because of that Michael later felt and did this and that.

Spot the difference?

Speculating is fine. We're all just fans here and we speculate over things we don't know. Stating these speculations as facts is not fine, it's highly annoying. Especially in this age where the MJ community is already suffering from enough fake MJ facts.
 
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ChrisC

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Clearly it wasn't spontaneous when they had time to build a prop, do a little animation and record the "kings of pop" line.

The James Brown thing looked spontaneous, this looked planned and the impression people ended up with was that Michael missed his cues. It's just odd is all.
 
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