Latest on MJJC

Preliminary Hearing 11/1/11. Day Six. Discussion Thread

summer said:
Murray said himself that previously he gave a bolus toget MJ to sleep and then gave a drip to keep MJ sleeping.

Murray could have injected a bolus around 10:40 a.m...then put MJ on a Propofol drip that was going in with a too big of a dose....Murray left the room for 40 minutes...MJ would not have stopped breathing immediately, but by the time he had gotten too much of Propofol...and Murray was out of the room by then. Then Murray came back, saw that MJ was not breathing and panicked...disconnected the Propofol drip...and the rest we know. Murray said he gave a bolus and THEN started the drip. In that case MJ can't wake up and adjust the low of teh drip because he is continuosly getting Propofol.

We don't know if there was a drip, all I'm saying is that it's a possibility. And the Propofol bottle in the i.v. bag could speak for it.

And on a side note, I will just ignore certain comments from certain posters, because I'm tired of them already.
Click to expand...

I'm also a reader, not a poster, but I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you wrote. It's my theory also, and what I believe to be true.

One thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that I read somewhere that he had his eyes and mouth open, does anyone have the link? This points to a sudden death, while being awake. I remember discussing that the eyes and mouth don't stay open after death, even if cpr is performed (mouth-to-mouth and checking to see if pupils are dilated).
(...sorry for being so damn graphic!)

Also, keep ignoring the logical fallacies? It's better that way, it saves precious time...
 
Popescu said:
I'm also a reader, not a poster, but I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you wrote. It's my theory also, and what I believe to be true.

One thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that I read somewhere that he had his eyes and mouth open, does anyone have the link? This points to a sudden death, while being awake. I remember discussing that the eyes and mouth don't stay open after death, even if cpr is performed (mouth-to-mouth and checking to see if pupils are dilated).
(...sorry for being so damn graphic!)

Also, keep ignoring the logical fallacies? It's better that way, it saves precious time...
Click to expand...

That is the part that remains so troubling. It points to a more violent death, rather than just going unconscious due to the propofol. If the propofol had made him unconscious (as it does), then he would have been found in a position of SLEEP, rather than with mouth and eyes open. This haunts me, and is terribly off, and wrong.

I think we cannot believe anything Murray says, and we still don't know the truth. . .
 
Popescu;3192490 said:
I'm also a reader, not a poster, but I just wanted to say that I agree with everything you wrote. It's my theory also, and what I believe to be true.

One thing that doesn't make sense is the fact that I read somewhere that he had his eyes and mouth open, does anyone have the link? This points to a sudden death, while being awake. I remember discussing that the eyes and mouth don't stay open after death, even if cpr is performed (mouth-to-mouth and checking to see if pupils are dilated).
(...sorry for being so damn graphic!)

Also, keep ignoring the logical fallacies? It's better that way, it saves precious time...
Click to expand...

It was a long time ago now but I´ve taken care of old patients that died in the hospital I worked on.They were just old,with some diseases ,and they died peacefully.
But the mouth could be open and several times we had to bind something around the chin and the head to close it.When the body became stiff you could take the bandage away and if relatives wanted to see them they could see the mouth was closed
I´m not sure about the eyes but I think it happend they stayed open and you put an finger to the eyelid to close the eyes.
I think I read something about putting coins on the eyelids to make the eyes stay closed , but that´s something I´ve never done.
 
One thing I don't understand, one of the many incomprehensible things, has to do with the toxicology evidence from the autopsy report: Propofol, Lidocaine and Flumazenil were detected in 0.17 gm of white fluid from a 10 cc syringe. If, in fact, Murray was giving the Flumazenil to reverse the effects of the benzodiazepines Michael had in him, why was it detected in combination with the prop and lido? So what did Murray do? Take the syringe he was using to give Michael the Prop, draw up the benzo. antagonist and then what? He would have pushed it into the IV line to get it into Michael. Then I would think he should have opened up the primary (saline) IV to flush the med into Michael. Well, if there was already propofol in the syringe, by giving the Flumazenil, he would have been giving additional Propofol at the same time. And there is no way to know how much propofol was in the syringe when Murray added the Flumazenil.

And if he did flush in the Flumazenil, why was any remaining in the syringe? I wish things wouldn't be in milligrams. I don't know how much fluid that would equate to..! Arrrrggh!
What am I missing here?

With all the focus on Murray and CPR, when was Murray supposed to have administered the Flumazenil? Would that have delayed CPR, such as it was, significantly? Did he give it because he thought the problem was due to the benzos or because he thought it would aid in reversing the propofol, which, as we have learned, has no reversing agent.
 
Last edited:
cinzia said:
One thing I don't understand, one of the many incomprehensible things, has to do with the toxicology evidence from the autopsy report: Propofol, Lidocaine and Flumazenil were detected in 0.17 gm of white fluid from a 10 cc syringe. If, in fact, Murray was giving the Flumazenil to reverse the effects of the benzodiazepines Michael had in him, why was it detected in combination with the prop and lido? So what did Murray do? Take the syringe he was using to give Michael the Prop, draw up the benzo. antagonist and then what? He would have pushed it into the IV line to get it into Michael. Then I would think he should have opened up the primary (saline) IV to flush the med into Michael. Well, if there was already propofol in the syringe, by giving the Flumazenil, he would have been giving additional Propofol at the same time. And there is no way to know how much propofol was in the syringe when Murray added the Flumazenil.

And if he did flush in the Flumazenil, why was any remaining in the syringe? I wish things wouldn't be in milligrams. I don't know how much fluid that would equate to..! Arrrrggh!
What am I missing here?

With all the focus on Murray and CPR, when was Murray supposed to have administered the Flumazenil? Would that have delayed CPR, such as it was, significantly? Did he give it because he thought the problem was due to the benzos or because he thought it would aid in reversing the propofol, which, as we have learned, has no reversing agent.
Click to expand...

Good question. In my opinion Murray had no clue what he was reversing because he had no clue what he was doing. I hope during trial the fact that there is no reversal agent for propofol comes up and I also hope the fact that Murray told MJ it was safe because he would be watching him comes up.

It has never been said if Murray told MJ it was safe.
 
i think it was a conspiracy.. murder on the installment. last time i saw a documentary on lethal injection.

they inject 3 injections on the person. one to make them asleep, then one to paralyze, then the third one is to stop the heartbeat.

i think that is what murray did to MJ.
 
ishmj said:
i think it was a conspiracy.. murder on the installment. last time i saw a documentary on lethal injection.

they inject 3 injections on the person. one to make them asleep, then one to paralyze, then the third one is to stop the heartbeat.

i think that is what murray did to MJ.
Click to expand...


:cry:.....oh my..........i hope not...that is just heartbreaking
 
StacyJ said:
Good question. In my opinion Murray had no clue what he was reversing because he had no clue what he was doing. I hope during trial the fact that there is no reversal agent for propofol comes up and I also hope the fact that Murray told MJ it was safe because he would be watching him comes up.

It has never been said if Murray told MJ it was safe.
Click to expand...

Completely agree, how a "doctor" could be so grossly negligent I will never understand, its far too disturbing.
 
katrine said:
Completely agree, how a "doctor" could be so grossly negligent I will never understand, its far too disturbing.
Click to expand...

I agree.. he's not just any doctor either.. He's a licensed cardiologist with 2 practices and 3 licenses in 3 different states. A cardiologist is one of the most prestigious and top paying int he medical field. Murray is no dummy. He knows what he did was wrong that's why he didn't tell the ER staff what he gave MJ
 
ishmj said:
i think it was a conspiracy.. Murder on the installment. Last time i saw a documentary on lethal injection.

They inject 3 injections on the person. One to make them asleep, then one to paralyze, then the third one is to stop the heartbeat.

I think that is what murray did to mj.
Click to expand...

I agree with you.

To quote Dick Gregory: "Doctors make the best assassins."
 
CherubimII said:
I agree with you.

To quote Dick Gregory: "Doctors make the best assassins."
Click to expand...



I remember that quote from Dick Gregory. Mike was close to Dick Gregory. I don't remember Dick Greogry making any comment after MJ died. I really wish Dick would've told this to Michael
 
StacyJ said:
I agree.. he's not just any doctor either.. He's a licensed cardiologist with 2 practices and 3 licenses in 3 different states. A cardiologist is one of the most prestigious and top paying int he medical field. Murray is no dummy. He knows what he did was wrong that's why he didn't tell the ER staff what he gave MJ
Click to expand...

Google IS our friend:

Salary.com reports that the median annual salary for cardiologists in the United States as of November 2010 was $241,598; for cardiac surgeons, it was $275,006. Overall, annual salaries for most cardiologists ranged from $243,546 to $356,150.
According to Salary.com, cardiologists in New York City had the highest earnings in 2010 among major metropolitan areas with a median annual salary of $328,178 followed by Los Angeles with a median salary of $313,444.

Read more: How Much Do Cardiologists Make a Year? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_7509177_much-do-cardiologists-make-year.html#ixzz1Bz5WIX8M

So in 2 MONTHS murray would have made more than the median salary of someone in LA. And yet he couldn't find the time to monitor his patient.

Exactly, murray is no dummy. So why did this happen? And I agree, he certainly knew his actions were wrong.

Another thing, probably off topic here but...if he is in such debt, how can he afford the lawyers? Even if he wins, he will STILL be in debt from before the trial plus whatever he must pay the lawyers. Someone mentioned they were working pro bono but I can't find anything on this.

As for the 3 injections theory, I don't buy that at all. The autopsy clearly indicates the cause of death. Sufficient propofol will kill you all by itself and then add the benzos...But as for conspiracy, I honestly would like to see that be the truth, rather than Michael having lost his marvelous life because of simple carelessness or arrogance on the part of a man he trusted.
 
Another thing, probably off topic here but...if he is in such debt, how can he afford the lawyers? Even if he wins, he will STILL be in debt from before the trial plus whatever he must pay the lawyers. Someone mentioned they were working pro bono but I can't find anything on this.
Click to expand...
hes expecting his insurance to cover it.but they have filed with the court saying they dont have to pay cause what he did isnt covered by their insurance. so time will tell with that. the lawyers may well do it free. win or lose they will still make money on the talk show circuits etc
 
elusive moonwalker said:
hes expecting his insurance to cover it.but they have filed with the court saying they dont have to pay cause what he did isnt covered by their insurance. so time will tell with that. the lawyers may well do it free. win or lose they will still make money on the talk show circuits etc
Click to expand...


yeah I'm wondering how that's going.. The insurance company said he wasn't covered for anesthesia use. I'm assuming an anesthesiologist or any other doctor that has a license to administer anesthesia probably has a much higher insurance premium since anesthesia is a risky procedure.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
hes expecting his insurance to cover it.but they have filed with the court saying they dont have to pay cause what he did isnt covered by their insurance. so time will tell with that. the lawyers may well do it free. win or lose they will still make money on the talk show circuits etc
Click to expand...

If the defence get Murrray off this, every guilty defendant in the USA will be queuing to hire them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top