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The Paul Anka tracks -- 1980 or 1983?

AlwaysThere

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This has been pestering at me for a while, and I want to see what the rest of you think.

As we all know, Michael and Paul Anka collaborated on three songs for the latter's Walk a Fine Line, a duets album which was released in early August 1983. Though the MJ Estate have earmarked the songs as having been written and recorded over a two-week period in 1983, numerous people (most notably Damien Shields) have claimed a creation date of 1980.

Here's where that logic has crumbled in my personal opinion:

1.) I've yet to find an iota of evidence suggesting that Walk a Fine Line entered production three years prior to its release.

2.) Michael's schedule was overloaded in 1980: the Destiny Tour concluded on January 13, and the Triumph sessions (during which, by all accounts, Michael steered the ship) spanned the early spring and late summer. This means that Michael wouldn't have been available for the two-week songwriting outing until the fall, during which time Anka was preoccupied with his own album, Both Sides of Love, released in April 1981.

Comparatively, Michael's 1983 itinerary was more or less confined to promoting Thriller via filming music videos ("Billie Jean" in January, "Beat It" in March, and "Thriller" in October) and performing at the Motown 25 celebration, not to mention periodic studio sessions with Buz Kohan and Freddie Mercury.

3.) In 2009, when the Estate was under fire for not properly crediting "This Is It," Anka himself said the song was recorded in 1983.

In my opinion, Damien Shields (who I find to be rather insufferable in some ways) is pushing a false narrative because of his noted anti-Estate crusade. There's absolutely NO evidence to suggest that the Anka songs came from 1980.

What do you all think?
 
I love Damien Shields, I thing he is great. Love his articles and his books.

About Paul Anka sessions, I thought about that multiple times. I also think those songs are from 1983. There is no evidence for 1983 nor for 1980. There are photos of MJ and Anka from 1980 and also from 1983 so it can be both years. The problem is that Anka himself contradicted himself multiple times. He said the songs were recorded in 1983 but he also said that his songs could have been on Thriller album if they had finished them.
 
Michael Jackson and Paul Anka apparently worked together on these duet songs in 1983, and according to certain sources these sessions lasted nearly a month rather than two weeks.

But when Michael Jackson enjoyed the big success of his ‘Thriller’ album in that year (1983), he realized that he did not need these duet songs that he had just recorded with Paul Anka, so he abandoned the songs, these sources also said.

In any case, the interesting part of this whole story is not really the year in which these duet songs were recorded (1980 or 1983), but Paul Anka’s claim that people from Michael Jackson’s management team (or even Michael Jackson himself) stole the master tapes of these duet songs from Paul Anka’s studio right after the end of the sessions.
 
AlwaysThere said:
In my opinion, Damien Shields (who I find to be rather insufferable in some ways) is pushing a false narrative because of his noted anti-Estate crusade. There's absolutely NO evidence to suggest that the Anka songs came from 1980.

What do you all think?
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I agree with you, with regard to Damien Shields. He is insufferable to me, as well. The expression in Australia is that he is "up himself".....meaning arrogant, disengenuous and basically "full of it". I am sticking with 1983 as the correct year. In addition, (as per mj_frenzy's post) it wouldn't surprise me at all if Paul Anka's story of the theft of the session tapes by Michael's management team, turned out to be correct...I don't think he has anything to gain by lying about something like that.
 
StellaJackson said:
The Paul Anka tracks have a creation date of 1980 as per the US Copyright Office registrations.

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/P...v18F4AcXqpwUwgfqeuNm&SEQ=20210101165103&SID=1

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/P...tpRc1s0QMEHDW1xlPNGy&SEQ=20210101164918&SID=1

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/P...Sf7lu0ElBGX9X-vp1-lq&SEQ=20210101165015&SID=1
Click to expand...

These are the evidence that we needed! Damien was right and the real year is 1980. Paul Anka was wrong. He is pretty old and he mixed up the years in multiple interviews he gave.
 
Interesting. Maybe they were written for something else, and brought up for the duets album?

Either way, case closed! Thank you, StellaJackson!
 
No, they were written (and recorded - as that was the only way MJ was writing music) for MJ and Anka in 1980. As MJ left the project, they gave the songs away to other artists - Johnny Mathis in 1984 (LNFSG) and Sa-Fire in 1991 (This Is It).
 
OnirMJ said:
No, they were written (and recorded - as that was the only way MJ was writing music) for MJ and Anka in 1980. As MJ left the project, they gave the songs away to other artists - Johnny Mathis in 1984 (LNFSG) and Sa-Fire in 1991 (This Is It).
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I know. What I'm saying is, given all the available information, it's implausible to think that Paul Anka began production on a duets album in 1980, shelved it after spending two whole weeks on it with a single other artist, moved on to a solo project, then picked it back up again three years later.

My theory is that the Paul Anka songs weren't specifically written for any one album. Similar to the Barry Gibb and Freddie Mercury collaborations, they were the product of two artists coming together to make music, with no true end goal. Perhaps at one point or another they were up for consideration for Triumph or Both Sides of Love, but they weren't written/recorded under the guise that they were clear-cut contenders. Then, three years later, Anka comes up with a concept for a duets album and decides to pull up the MJ tracks once again, but Michael's already moved on.

To me, that makes more sense than the Damien Shields angle.
 
Interesting to note that out of the unreleased tracks released so far the Paul Anka tracks have been the most commercially successful.
 
AmitLal92;4314673 said:
Interesting to note that out of the unreleased tracks released so far the Paul Anka tracks have been the most commercially successful.
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That was because both LNFSG and Don’t Matter To Me had two very successful contemporary artists as features. I doubt the commercial success of both songs had anything to do with the quality of the tracks.
 
AlwaysThere;4314672 said:
My theory is that the Paul Anka songs weren't specifically written for any one album. Similar to the Barry Gibb and Freddie Mercury collaborations, they were the product of two artists coming together to make music, with no true end goal. Perhaps at one point or another they were up for consideration for Triumph or Both Sides of Love, but they weren't written/recorded under the guise that they were clear-cut contenders.
Click to expand...

All of the three duet songs that Michael Jackson and Freddie Mercury worked on together were originally contenders for the ‘Thriller’ album, according to Freddie Mercury himself.

“…I think one of the [three] tracks would have been on the ‘Thriller’ album if I finished it but I missed out…” (Freddie Mercury, 1983)

In a later interview in 1991, Freddie Mercury confirmed that again:

“…I was going to be on ‘Thriller’…We had three [duet] songs in the can, but, unfortunately, they were never finished…” (Freddie Mercury, 1991)

Freddie Mercury cited as the reason that he left unfinished these three duets songs the fact that he was being annoyed in the recording studio by Michael Jackson’s pet chimpanzee Bubbles.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I know. What I'm saying is, given all the available information, it's implausible to think that Paul Anka began production on a duets album in 1980, shelved it after spending two whole weeks on it with a single other artist, moved on to a solo project, then picked it back up again three years later.

My theory is that the Paul Anka songs weren't specifically written for any one album. Similar to the Barry Gibb and Freddie Mercury collaborations, they were the product of two artists coming together to make music, with no true end goal. Perhaps at one point or another they were up for consideration for Triumph or Both Sides of Love, but they weren't written/recorded under the guise that they were clear-cut contenders. Then, three years later, Anka comes up with a concept for a duets album and decides to pull up the MJ tracks once again, but Michael's already moved on.

To me, that makes more sense than the Damien Shields angle.
Click to expand...

To me everything is clear now. Paul Anka and MJ worked together in 1980 on unnamed Paul Anka project in his studio. At some point MJ decided to leave the project because he become big star (probably Off The Wall fame). The songs were registered in US copyright office in 1983 probably because that's when Anka and MJ agreed to give Love Never Felt So Good to Johnny Mathis.

In The View interview Paul Anka basically confirms everything. He says the year was 1980/1981 and that MJ was 21 years old. So that has to be 1980. He says that MJ left the project because Thriller was coming out but that can't be right. It's probably Off The Wall fame, Triumph and Triumph Tour.

In that same video the hosts and video clip says 1983 but that is probably false information provided by the Estate and they got that year from US copyright office which is the year when the songs were first registered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfRznr_32HQ&feature=youtu.be
 
mj_frenzy;4314698 said:
All of the three duet songs that Michael Jackson and Freddie Mercury worked on together were originally contenders for the ‘Thriller’ album, according to Freddie Mercury himself.

“…I think one of the [three] tracks would have been on the ‘Thriller’ album if I finished it but I missed out…” (Freddie Mercury, 1983)

In a later interview in 1991, Freddie Mercury confirmed that again:

“…I was going to be on ‘Thriller’…We had three [duet] songs in the can, but, unfortunately, they were never finished…” (Freddie Mercury, 1991)

Freddie Mercury cited as the reason that he left unfinished these three duets songs the fact that he was being annoyed in the recording studio by Michael Jackson’s pet chimpanzee Bubbles.
Click to expand...

That is simply wrong because they recorded together only one day at Hayvenhurst studio and the exact day in 1983 is known and confirmed. He probably mixed up Thriller with Victory. If they had finished them, they would end up on Victory - State Of Shock and probably Victory as well.
 
Mikky Dee said:
I agree with you, with regard to Damien Shields. He is insufferable to me, as well. The expression in Australia is that he is "up himself".....meaning arrogant, disengenuous and basically "full of it".
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So let me get this straight, you're a staff member on here insulting and dismissing a respected member of the fan community who dedicates a lot of his own time and money into doing actual research into the things he writes about...because you disagree about the dates of a few songs? You can disagree, but you're wrong about who Damien is and you're coming off as petty. This is the type of thing that made me stop coming around here years ago and why I won't be coming back anymore.
 
Members of The MJ Cast recently called out some of us for our Damien Shields comments. All I'll say is this:

Both Damien and The MJ Cast have done an incredible amount of in-depth research and coverage for the fans, and I can't thank them enough for it. However, the idea that they're immune to any subjective criticism is incredibly hypocritical. Plenty of biographers, from Joseph Vogel to J. Randy Taraborrelli to Mike Smallcombe to Richard Lecocq to Kit O'Toole, have also worked extensively to provide fans comprehensive information via books and articles, and they've been subject to scrutiny by those who find their work wanting or empty. Why are they liable to critiques, yet Damien and The MJ Cast aren't? How is anyone "pushing a false narrative" or "bullying" or "dismiss[ing] Damien's journalism" by offering their personal opinions and calling certain things into question? Why not do what StellaJackson did and offer a rebuttal?

Yes, I was incorrect about the recording date of the Anka tracks, and I sincerely apologize to Damien for my implication that he was a liar (which wasn't my intent, but absolutely read that way due to my abhorrent wording). However, the fact that a host of The MJ Cast lashed out on Twitter over screenshots from one person saying that their podcast "rubs [them] the wrong way" and that they "don't like the way those guys operate" is painfully childish. While myself and others could certainly be better about our phrasing of our critiques, there is nothing wrong with not being a fan of someone because of their attitude and/or work ethic. My opinion doesn't invalidate yours, just as yours doesn't invalidate mine. And yet, for some reason, not liking Damien or The MJ Cast is somehow "bullying."

As a fan of The MJ Cast, I find this response incredibly disappointing.
 
cmstrike said:
So let me get this straight, you're a staff member on here insulting and dismissing a respected member of the fan community who dedicates a lot of his own time and money into doing actual research into the things he writes about...because you disagree about the dates of a few songs? You can disagree, but you're wrong about who Damien is and you're coming off as petty. This is the type of thing that made me stop coming around here years ago and why I won't be coming back anymore.
Click to expand...

I wear two hats Chris. Sometimes I'm speaking just as myself, not as a staff member. My opinions about Damien Shields are my own personal opinions and they have nothing to do with MJJC, the owner of MJJC, or anyone else on MJJC. What I think about Damien Shields, the MJ Cast, John Cameron and any other entity or personality within the MJ fan community, is based on much more than one thing, like the date a song was created. LOL! People who are respected members of the community and who put their research out into the public arena, should be confident enough in the space they fill within the community.... impervious to the critiques of others and resilient enough to handle it with grace. The petty ones are those trying to manufacture a twitterstorm out of nothing - posting screenshots out of context; talking ABOUT me, not TO me; disrespecting people's opinions and writing them off as lazy and misinformed; and denigrating MJJC for no reason.
 
AlwaysThere said:
Members of The MJ Cast recently called out some of us for our Damien Shields comments. All I'll say is this:

Both Damien and The MJ Cast have done an incredible amount of in-depth research and coverage for the fans, and I can't thank them enough for it. However, the idea that they're immune to any subjective criticism is incredibly hypocritical. Plenty of biographers, from Joseph Vogel to J. Randy Taraborrelli to Mike Smallcombe to Richard Lecocq to Kit O'Toole, have also worked extensively to provide fans comprehensive information via books and articles, and they've been subject to scrutiny by those who find their work wanting or empty. Why are they liable to critiques, yet Damien and The MJ Cast aren't? How is anyone "pushing a false narrative" or "bullying" or "dismiss[ing] Damien's journalism" by offering their personal opinions and calling certain things into question? Why not do what StellaJackson did and offer a rebuttal?

Yes, I was incorrect about the recording date of the Anka tracks, and I sincerely apologize to Damien for my implication that he was a liar (which wasn't my intent, but absolutely read that way due to my abhorrent wording). However, the fact that a host of The MJ Cast lashed out on Twitter over screenshots from one person saying that their podcast "rubs [them] the wrong way" and that they "don't like the way those guys operate" is painfully childish. While myself and others could certainly be better about our phrasing of our critiques, there is nothing wrong with not being a fan of someone because of their attitude and/or work ethic. My opinion doesn't invalidate yours, just as yours doesn't invalidate mine. And yet, for some reason, not liking Damien or The MJ Cast is somehow "bullying."

As a fan of The MJ Cast, I find this response incredibly disappointing.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. A lot of what you have said is why I have issues with the MJ Cast and some of their followers. I'm not sure why they are so incensed over the opinions of a handful of fans on this board - they're acting a little bit precious, I feel.
 
While i don't care about this thread. i agree. i always had a bad taste for MJ cast. i remember something happen last year that caused alot problems. while i'm not a fan MJ cast they need to accept people opinions and criticism.

they think they so special just because they MJ fans. word on the street, not everybody like MJ and that's not out of hate it's the truth. they living in their own little world which nothing wrong with that but if they can't accept opinions and criticism then why this exist?

i would say MJ cast are the bullies not people who disagree with them.
 
I do find the MJCast’s anti-estate bias to be rather eye-rolling at times, it can be quite boring to listen to them include a caveat as to how much they dislike the estate EVERY time they speak about a new MJ product. I’m not a big fan of the estate either and I do wish they did more for us and Michael’s legacy, but the constant bashing gets old after a while and doesn’t change anything.

That being said, the MJCast has been a great source of entertainment and information for me thanks to their great interviews with many of MJ’s biggest collaborators. My fandom would not be where it is without them and this forum. I do not understand the problem with Damien Shields? His knowledge is robust on topics like in this thread. And while he is perhaps the worst offender of beating the dead anti-estate horse, he has done a lot for this community such as many informative projects and reporting on the Casio tracks business. I’m not saying you have to like Damien, I’m just wondering how anyone could have a negative impression of him?

I did notice the MJCast promoting a new forum without giving this one as much of a mention, which I found very petty. It will only serve to divide the already split fanbase even further. I wish we could all get along in the spirit of Michael, we’d get more done
 
Snek;4314760 said:
I do find the MJCast’s anti-estate bias to be rather eye-rolling at times, it can be quite boring to listen to them include a caveat as to how much they dislike the estate EVERY time they speak about a new MJ product. I’m not a big fan of the estate either and I do wish they did more for us and Michael’s legacy, but the constant bashing gets old after a while and doesn’t change anything.
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thank you. i'm not pro estate or anti estate but if your topics are about the estate all the time just like users on this forum you need to get a life and find some other topics to talk about.
 
Snek;4314760 said:
I did notice the MJCast promoting a new forum without giving this one as much of a mention, which I found very petty. It will only serve to divide the already split fanbase even further. I wish we could all get along in the spirit of Michael, we’d get more done
Click to expand...

Agreed! while i love Michael the fan community has their bad (no pun). it's really hurts me seeing bad apples divide this community. to be real with you i been inactive in the community for years and came back 2019 to the LN mess. if Michael was alive he would not take this mess. he was never like that. Michael was about peace, love, respect. he never into dividing us. this is why non fans look at us like we crazy. Michael was a human being.
 
Snek;4314760 said:
I did notice the MJCast promoting a new forum without giving this one as much of a mention, which I found very petty. It will only serve to divide the already split fanbase even further. I wish we could all get along in the spirit of Michael, we’d get more done
Click to expand...

A couple of people in that conversation were actually maligning MJJC - saying that they were "attacked" when they brought "facts" to a discussion about what kind of format Michael's short films were created in. This, of course, is absolute rubbish. As I said - a few of them seem to be rather precious and immature when it comes to dealing with any push-back at all....about anything. I totally agree with you about the need for greater unity within the fandom. Twitter is not the place to find it, though, in my experience.
 
Twitter and social media in general not good for mental health at all. that's why i stay far from them. your best bet will be Instagram or maybe Facebook.
 
Unfortunately, Cascio tracks divided fan community, probably forever.

Which is really unfortunate because if we stayed united (like we did for Leaving Neverland) we could really make the difference. Just imagine huge biilboards, twitter campaigns, vans with billboards, buses, various events, crowdfunding, flyers... We are forgetting the power of fans in today day and age - just see what DC fans managed to achieve with #ReleaseSnyderCut movement. Just imagine entire MJ fanbase from all over the world united twitting #RemoveCascioSongs for months and years. And don't tell me there are more DC fans than MJ fans. Maybe there are, but they stayed united on that matter.

And don't say that Cascio track are not the most important thing (after LN of course) that happened after MJ died and that this is not the main reason for dividing the fan community. Because it is.
 
In my opinion what made this community divide are people who can't respect others opinions and disagreements. i would also say people who can't take criticism.
 
i'm not saying those tracks on the Michael album should stay there but in my opinion that's isn't the problem.
 
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