Things That You Believe Weren't Necessary/Didn't Add Value to MJ's Performances

ozemouze

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

What I have learned in this thread is that some fans will always defend their fav and won't criticise them at all. Michael's performance at Brits 96 was embarrassing. The whole "Messiah" thing reeked of arrogance, and just because other artists did similar performances, it doesn't make it right.

It's okay to criticise your fav sometimes. It won't make you any less of a fan.

I was waiting for the worshiping fans argument... It's much more prosaic though: some people simply like something you don't. Personally I can't stand YANA, but won't go on declaring my (IMO quite established :D) opinion as the only option and suggest that those who like it are just blinded fans who can't see what I do.

It's okay to like something that others criticize. It won't make you any more fanatic then them. ;)

The purpose of listing other similar performances is not to make you like it of course, just to give a wider context as it was made out to be something never-heard-of-before outrageous thing done by arrogant, messianic MJ. It's not.

And actually you can read quite a lot of criticism in this thread with others being fine with it. The more heated reaction was to the categorical (and quite harshly worded) claims about the Brit Award ES in particular.

And some remarks: I have nothing against threads like this, but let's face it: these titles/focuses are quite leading. Maybe some small changes like "things that added/did not add value" could make them more balanced.

It's perfectly fine to criticize MJ's work, but it often turns into some strange psychoanalyzing of MJ's character, intentions, life choices, mental state etc. on MJ boards. I think it's intrusion of his private sphere and dignity that we should avoid, as I'm sure no one would like to be treated in similar manner (and yes, I know he's dead). I've honestly never seen this in any other community, fans criticize the work of their fave artists but not the person, and certainly won't make diagnosis about them because of some performance they didn't like.

Let's just not forget MJ was a human and as such he had every right to be occasionally contradictory, tired, uninspired, arrogant, even to make some less than successful song/performance (and we have the right to criticize the latter, of course). Respecting this and acknowledging his faults without constantly criticizing it isn't worshiping him, on the contrary: it's accepting he was a human too.
 

Michaels Lover

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Someone left me a reputation comment and I can't see who it is? It said something like "I genuinely like the Brits Awards performance". I just want to say to that person, and everyone else here, that I genuinely like it as well ;) Never had a problem with it whatsoever, and I don't see how he made himself look like Jesus at all. Like already mentioned in this thread several times, it's purely about LOVE and his message is simple and undeniable. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry. I didn't care what the press tried to make him look like at the time, and I don't care what some people try to make him look like with this discussion. That's not what it it's supposed to be, and that's not what it looks like to me
 

ScreenOrigami

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Someone left me a reputation comment and I can't see who it is? It said something like "I genuinely like the Brits Awards performance". I just want to say to that person, and everyone else here, that I genuinely like it as well ;) Never had a problem with it whatsoever, and I don't see how he made himself look like Jesus at all. Like already mentioned in this thread several times, it's purely about LOVE and his message is simple and undeniable. If you can't see that, then I'm sorry. I didn't care what the press tried to make him look like at the time, and I don't care what some people try to make him look like with this discussion. That's not what it it's supposed to be, and that's not what it looks like to me

That would be me. Sometimes I remember that the reputation button exists and try to spread some love around. :D

And I agree with everything you said in this post. :)
 
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ozemouze

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Re: performance

James Brown had long been doing that wearing a cape.

Yep that part in MITM is clearly an homage to James Brown. I even remember MJ talking about it, just not sure where, maybe in Moonwalk?

Someone on his team should have said something, maybe not stopped him or anything but just mention it. Michael had a brand to hold and he had to represent himself well and that performance obviously didn't ruin him or anything but it didn't add anything either.

I love Michael Jackson but, this is an example of how naive he could be. With what happened in 1993 and the public scrutiny and focus, how he thought this was a good idea, in front of a drug fueled audience of Britpop musicians, who looked at the likes of his generation as past it, was beyond anything I'll ever understand.

But that's basically saying he should conform to the norms of others and give up his own in exchange for acceptance. I don't think that's something recommendable, independently from what you think about the performance itself (I mean it's fine to not like it personally because you don't find it convincing, but not because fearing the opinion of others).

Britpop musicians, who looked at the likes of his generation as past it

And where's Britpop now? ;) Sorry, nothing against Britpop just couldn't resist. :tongue: I've always found judgments like "it's in the past" or "dated" etc. just because something was done years/decades ago or not particularly trendy at some point in time hard to interpret anyway. If it's good it's good.

- The excessive length of "Workin' Day And Night" and "Shake Your Body" in every tour he performed those songs

Haha, I LOVE those. :D
 

Anna

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

What I have learned in this thread is that some fans will always defend their fav and won't criticise them at all. Michael's performance at Brits 96 was embarrassing. The whole "Messiah" thing reeked of arrogance, and just because other artists did similar performances, it doesn't make it right.

It's okay to criticise your fav sometimes. It won't make you any less of a fan.

Preach.

MJ was a saviour to many
That has nothing to do with Michael making himself out to be a saviour. It was so arrogant. And certainly not the only time he showed arrogance.

I'm so done with this thread.
 

Rocketeer

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Dang, this thread has gotten interesting, from simply discussing MJ’s shows to him being arrogant all of a sudden. Talk about a shift in discussion! Haha, I guess this Brit Awards performance has become quite a bone of contention in this thread. :)
 

innuendo

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Preach.


That has nothing to do with Michael making himself out to be a saviour. It was so arrogant. And certainly not the only time he showed arrogance.

I'm so done with this thread.
You might not like that performance and you might find that it "arrogant, embarrassing, cringy" but others might not feel the same way as you do and your condescending attitude doesn't add anything to the conversation.

There is no room for anybody to tell others how they should perceive something subjective as art.
 

Toby34

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I don't get what a show and performance has to do with him as a person. Is Michael also a "monster" because he becomes a werewolf during his shows? It's all part of the show folks.

Watch artists like James Brown and Jackie Wilson (who MJ idolized) and you will see dramatics in their shows too.
 

DuranDuran

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Prince

I've honestly never seen this in any other community, fans criticize the work of their fave artists but not the person, and certainly won't make diagnosis about them because of some performance they didn't like.
I guess you've ever looked at Prince.org. :rofl: Some constantly talk trash about Prince, especially about him becoming a Jehovah's Witness and the changes in his music because of it or adding rapping to his songs. There's some racists/bigots on that site too, which is ironic since Prince is black. But some Nazi skinheads listen to reggae & ska.
 

ozemouze

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Re: Prince

I guess you've ever looked at Prince.org. :rofl: Some constantly talk trash about Prince, especially about him becoming a Jehovah's Witness and the changes in his music because of it or adding rapping to his songs. There's some racists/bigots on that site too, which is ironic since Prince is black. But some Nazi skinheads listen to reggae & ska.

I knew I should have added that my experience with fan communities might be limited. :D I seriously don't get this overanalyzing mania. I laughed at the thought of the possible dilemmas of the reggae listening Nazis though. :laughing:

I'm so done with this thread.

Because some people have different opinion then yours? Then what about those whose right/capability to form an opinion on their own was basically questioned by degrading them as just rabid fans who will "always defend their favs"? BTW there were some legitimate arguments on both sides here to discuss but you chose to ignore them and just kept pushing your interpretation instead of exchanging POVs.

And yep, MJ might have shown signs of arrogance and other faults. He wasn't some kind of saint who had to be perfect.
 

ScreenOrigami

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Re: Prince

I knew I should have added that my experience with fan communities might be limited. :D

I agree that the level of infighting is extreme in the MJ fandom, though. But of course my experience is based on my experiences in rock & metal fan communities, so in that way also very limited. :D
 

analogue

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Re: Prince

The person wearing a werewolf mask and pretending to be MJ during Thriller is something I was never a fan of. I think it's really cheesy and on the HIStory Tour is really obvious that it's not Michael under that mask. The biggest give away is that Michael wore a short sleeved v-neck t.shirt and the impersonator wore a long sleeved white jumper.
 

Snek

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analogue;4289501 said:
The person wearing a werewolf mask and pretending to be MJ during Thriller is something I was never a fan of. I think it's really cheesy and on the HIStory Tour is really obvious that it's not Michael under that mask. The biggest give away is that Michael wore a short sleeved v-neck t.shirt and the impersonator wore a long sleeved white jumper.

I can forgive it because it sets up MJ being able to appear on the cherry picker at the start of Beat It after the magic trick.

Also I will say this, is it really so inappropriate to use messianic imagery when trying to convey such a powerful and important message? MJ was acting as the protector, against war and the destruction of our planet. Obviously he does not see himself as the actual physical embodiment of a Christ-like figure, it is all metaphorical.

That being said, if anyone has the right to act messianic in their performances it is MJ. He had such goodness in his heart and he did his best every day to heal the world of its injustices. And he was persecuted. Just something to think about. I don’t think we will see such a soul in any of our lifetimes again.

What has Jarvis ever done for this world? Nothing.
 

Word Smith Sr

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mj_frenzy;4289194 said:
Slash’s refusal to leave the stage but instead to keep playing his guitar until the ‘Billie Jean’ performance begins.

I actually love that. It makes the performance even more electric. I could see your point for the German and Korean 1999 charity concerts. The effect of surprise is not there anymore and it's a little comical. But that MTV 1995 "don't ruin my adrenaline rush" one ? Goosebumps.
 

dam2040

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Every time I check this site I see BS threads like this

Disheartening
 

ozemouze

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Re: Prince

The person wearing a werewolf mask and pretending to be MJ during Thriller is something I was never a fan of. I think it's really cheesy and on the HIStory Tour is really obvious that it's not Michael under that mask. The biggest give away is that Michael wore a short sleeved v-neck t.shirt and the impersonator wore a long sleeved white jumper.

It's obvious on recordings but I don't think it was too noticable for the audience during the show. But yeah, they could have paid more attentions to details. But hey, MJ couldn't take off his rabbit dress without continuity problems at the end of the Speed Demon segment in Moonwalker. :D
 

Mechaspiderman

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Damn, things got heated there :D
Personally I don't mind those additions, some of them, like bug incident are just silly, but at the end of the day it's a show and the whole purpose was to entertain the audience. Maybe it's because as a former metalhead I got used to the flashy acts and saw so much shit next to which MJ's concerts look like school choir that acts like Earth Song during Brit Awards don't bother me at all. It's certainly a dated concept as nowdays most performers opt for less theatrical additions, like dialogue with fans, to avoid repetitiveness.
As for HIStory promo, I see why people would see it as arrogant, but wasn't that kind of the point? Like a middle finger to everyone that thought his career was over. It was a provocation, and looking at some of the concepts for the tour he clearly wanted to create controversy. Again, I understand how people may criticize him for it, but for me he never crossed the line. Besides, I'll never understand why one of the most accomplished artists of all time would have to pretend to be humble when so many of his less talented peers proclaim themselves as gods.
When it comes to pure quality of performance, for me it's 50/50, some of them seem unnecessary and overdone, but I do enjoy that Slash act, or Marlon making an ass of himself :laughing: I definitely would be fine with less pretended crying though
 

Themidwestcowboy

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Re: Prince

The person wearing a werewolf mask and pretending to be MJ during Thriller is something I was never a fan of. I think it's really cheesy and on the HIStory Tour is really obvious that it's not Michael under that mask. The biggest give away is that Michael wore a short sleeved v-neck t.shirt and the impersonator wore a long sleeved white jumper.

I have always thought that the Thriller performances always were a bit too cheesy imo. The hookeyness is on full display during daylight shows like Oslo on DWT. You could literally see the people in black controlling the skeletons lol.
 
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ChrisC

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

You know the skeletons, we all loved that in 1992.

It's a bit hokey now sure.
 

analogue

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Thriller worked best on the BAD Tour where it was just Michael with the backing dancers dressed as zombies.
 

DuranDuran

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mj_frenzy;4289442 said:
For instance, that Janet Jackson’s ‘Would You Mind’ live segment added no value to her performance, either (her lap dance looks very forced and fake).
I'm pretty sure that all those guys that got picked would disagree that it added nothing.
89e3bc1c798aa0b764424fc4205909b724a89275.gifv
 

somewhereinthedark

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What bothers me is the OVER REACTING of ANYTHING that Michael did. It’s scary that some people-even fans- can’t distinguish that the MITM performance was theatrical and not as if he was LITERALLY trying to portray himself as the Messiah. If ANY OTHER performer, especially a “rock” performer had done that type of theatrical performance, the “mainstream” media would have been pissing all over themselves with praise. The sickening hypocrisy of someone like Jarvis Cocker, or whatever his name was, makes me nauseous. I guess it’s alright for a “rock” musician to “bite a bat’s head” off and everyone think that crap is cool, yet cringe or jump on stage and show your butt when Michael stretches his arms out in a performance and claim he he trying to literally be the Messiah. SMDH.
 

ozemouze

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

Every time I check this site I see BS threads like this

Disheartening

I think this thread is overall fine, I also contributed to it, even though the title is a bit leading and perhaps it shouldn't be focusing only on the negativity. Problem only came when some members couldn't expect the fact that others may see things differently and started questioning the authenticity of others' opinion and grading their fandom (which I thought wasn't allowed here BTW). Liking something others don't only means different taste, nothing more.
 

OnirMJ

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

I couldn't disagree more with almost everything. Some of those acts are MJ iconic and most loved acts of all time. The only thing on the list I'm not a fan of is You Are Not Alone from backstage. And also a bug thing even though I didn't know that was staged. I thought that happen only on 1 concert.

Earth Song thing, Slash thing, Man In The Mirror, She's Out Of My Life - all amazing and iconic. Especially Man In The Mirror thing.
 

Rocketeer

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Re: Things that did not add value to his performance

And also a bug thing even though I didn't know that was staged. I thought that happen only on 1 concert.
It did happen in the concert in Leipzig, Germany on August 3, 1997 (edited into Munich, but really in Leipzig), but that was the only time I think. I have never seen an interlude about the bug in any other HIStory show, and to add, that was just in a brief intermission before the Jackson 5 Medley, so it is not technically apart of a performance. Not on the setlist, not a performance, at least to me. Therefore, this bug thang should be withdrawed from this list on that basis.
 

ScreenOrigami

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somewhereinthedark;4289586 said:
What bothers me is the OVER REACTING of ANYTHING that Michael did. It’s scary that some people-even fans- can’t distinguish that the MITM performance was theatrical and not as if he was LITERALLY trying to portray himself as the Messiah. If ANY OTHER performer, especially a “rock” performer had done that type of theatrical performance, the “mainstream” media would have been pissing all over themselves with praise. The sickening hypocrisy of someone like Jarvis Cocker, or whatever his name was, makes me nauseous. I guess it’s alright for a “rock” musician to “bite a bat’s head” off and everyone think that crap is cool, yet cringe or jump on stage and show your butt when Michael stretches his arms out in a performance and claim he he trying to literally be the Messiah. SMDH.

It’s true that in the rock music world people can get away with a lot more in the eyes of the media and the public.

Just for balance, though, there are controversies in the rock and metal world as well, but usually they’re not addressed by waving your butt around while the person is still performing. :D

Let’s take a look at Soundgarden’s “Jesus Christ Pose”, a song from 1991, that criticizes the artistic exploitation of religious symbolism, specifically the crucifixion of Jesus:

“You just see it a lot with really beautiful people, or famous people, exploiting that symbol as to imply that they're either a deity or persecuted somehow by their public. So it's pretty much a song that is nonreligious but expressing being irritated by seeing that. It's not that I would ever be offended by what someone would do with that symbol.”

(Soundgarden’s singer Chris Cornell in an interview with Spin magazine in 1992)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Pose#Lyrics

Again, this predates MJ’s Earth Song by 4 years, so it was not directed at him in any way, but inspired by Perry Farrell of Jane’s Addiction.

Here’s Perry Farrell.

chris+cuffaro_perry+ferrell.jpg


Instead of crashing his performance, though, or even mentioning him by name, Soundgarden turned their criticism into a piece of art of their own.

Jesus Christ Pose

And you stare at me
In your Jesus Christ pose
Arms held out
Like you've been carrying a load
And you swear to me
You don't want to be my slave
But you're staring at me
Like I need to be saved
In your Jesus Christ pose
Arms held out
In your Jesus Christ pose
Thorns and shroud
Like it's the coming of the Lord
And I swear to you
That I would never feed you pain
But you're staring at me
Like I'm driving the nails
In your Jesus Christ pose
And you stare at me
In your Jesus Christ pose
Arms held out like it's
The coming of the Lord
And would it pay you more to walk on water
Than to wear a crown of thorns
It wouldn't pain me more to bury you rich
Than to bury you poor
In your Jesus Christ pose

And this is the video they came up with:

WARNING: There’s a lot of potentially seizure-inducing flickering going on.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/14r7y6rM6zA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ironically, their video got banned by MTV because of public outrage.

It was perceived as anti-Christian. The irony! :D

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Pose#Controversy

So, I&#8217;m just throwing this in for balance. Rock musicians don&#8217;t get away with everything either.
 
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ozemouze

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somewhereinthedark;4289586 said:
If ANY OTHER performer, especially a &#8220;rock&#8221; performer had done that type of theatrical performance, the &#8220;mainstream&#8221; media would have been pissing all over themselves with praise.

Haha, yes, some rock stars from the 60s-70s certainly showed sings of saviour complex, but it was accepted and even sort of celebrated.

Or if the eccentricity, not having "society standard masculin" appearance and behaviour, "reinvention" comes from let's say David Bowie it's heralded as "creative work of a genius, challenging the idea of normalcy and gender, breaking barriers, pushing limits, bla bla bla", when it's MJ it becomes just... a freak. And not just that: the reviewing of Bowie remains in the context of his works, with MJ it transforms into a psychoanalysis of the person (I guess music critics are qualified in every fields), and in a very condescending manner, treating him like a child (which is bothering because of its possible racist roots as well. Remember when Sneddon said "if you&#8217;re a good boy" to Chris Tucker at the trial? That wasn't just some random bad wording).

And I love Bowie and the Woodstock generation of rock acts as well. Their celebration is well-earned and correct. The problem is with the double standard when it comes to MJ.

Here's an article on MJ & Bowie and their treatment by the media: http://www.allforloveblog.com/?p=10307
 
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