Will You Be There - Beethoven's ninth Symphony

Slave To The Rhythm

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Who's idea was it to include a part of the symphony in the intro of the song and what do you think of it? Would love to know that!
 
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Themidwestcowboy

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Hard to say but if I would guess I would say Michael. It was wrong of him first not to credit the orchestra who played it on the album though.
 

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Another item I read about why Michael choose Beethoven's ninth symphony was to establish mood, beginning the listner's journey.

Also, "This symphony is considered by many leading musicologists to be one of the greatest works in western music. What makes it so special is Beethoven’s use of the human voice; he was the first major composer to include it within a symphony. This is why you’ll often see Symphony No. 9 referred to as the Choral Symphony. Beethoven’s 9th symphony, with an orchestra bigger than any other at the time and a play time of well over an hour (longer than any other symphonic work), was a major turning point for classical music; it was a catapult into the Romantic Period, where composers began breaking the rules of classical period composition, and exploring the use of large ensembles, extreme emotion, and unconventional orchestration.

The “Ode to Joy” text employed, and slightly modified, by Beethoven was written by the German poet, Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller, in the summer of 1785. It was a celebratory poem addressing the unity of all mankind.


https://www.thoughtco.com/beethovens-ode-to-joy-lyrics-history-724410
 

KOPV

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Michael was a big fan of classical music, I have always thought THAT is where it stems from. Considering that it was written by him and the fact that he had a love for classical music - I would think it's safe to come to an informal conclusion it was probably his idea. Also considering that he goes for ART first and did not think of the copywriter issue that the song ran into for using it.. Sounds MJ'esk lol! I want this sound, think of the outcome and don't mind anything that could stand in the way..

Bruce Swedien though, always a fan of strings. So it's not way off base to say he either had some input, either idea or a lot of enthusiasm and approval of the idea.
 

Slave To The Rhythm

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Michael was a big fan of classical music, I have always thought THAT is where it stems from. Considering that it was written by him and the fact that he had a love for classical music - I would think it's safe to come to an informal conclusion it was probably his idea. Also considering that he goes for ART first and did not think of the copywriter issue that the song ran into for using it.. Sounds MJ'esk lol! I want this sound, think of the outcome and don't mind anything that could stand in the way..

Bruce Swedien though, always a fan of strings. So it's not way off base to say he either had some input, either idea or a lot of enthusiasm and approval of the idea.

What do you mean exactly with copyright issue?
 

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^ There was 2 lawsuits do that song around that song.. The one regarding Beethoven was regarding crediting (or lack there of) for the song.. The other lawsuit, which I wasn't talking about (but I could see the question coming) is the obvious similarities to the song I Cigni di Balaka which was released 1987...
 

Slave To The Rhythm

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^ There was 2 lawsuits do that song around that song.. The one regarding Beethoven was regarding crediting (or lack there of) for the song.. The other lawsuit, which I wasn't talking about (but I could see the question coming) is the obvious similarities to the song I Cigni di Balaka which was released 1987...

Oh thanks! I only knew bout the second one ?
 

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Oh wow, I'd never heard of I Cigni di Balaka but I just listened to it...and WYBT sounds like a complete ripoff of that song :eek:! Did Michael win the lawsuit?! I'm honestly flabbergasted and shocked..
 

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^ Michael won, judge basically said both songs were inspired by 'Bless You For Being An Angel' by Inc Spot.. But I think clearly we can see where Mike got the sound from...
 

Slave To The Rhythm

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Oh wow, I'd never heard of I Cigni di Balaka but I just listened to it...and WYBT sounds like a complete ripoff of that song :eek:! Did Michael win the lawsuit?! I'm honestly flabbergasted and shocked..

Not the whole song but a part yes. But WYBT is so so much better!
and if you listen to cigni di balaka completely it ends very different
Also there is also a Limited number of chord variation so doesn't mean it's really copied, but of course the song could have been inspiration...
 

MoeJack

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Not the whole song but a part yes. But WYBT is so so much better!
and if you listen to cigni di balaka completely it ends very different
Also there is also a Limited number of chord variation so doesn't mean it's really copied, but of course the song could have been inspiration...

I love WYBT too, and Dangerous is my favorite album, which is why Im surprised to hear something so similar to the main chorus of the song. Interesting.
 

KOPV

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^ I appreciate the effort to show the difference in the song, and yes Michaels is much much better.. And this does not take away at his genius!! But if we have to put the songs side to side to make the songs sound as different as possible.. They are freakin' similar enough to be like "huh??"


Whatever the case, I love Will You Be There.. One of the songs I go back to often both album version and acapella.. it's a really powerful song to me, and vocally I have always liked hearing Michaels lower registers and this song ties in a few things Michael does like no one else. smooth tones and passionate aggression..!
 

Themidwestcowboy

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^ I appreciate the effort to show the difference in the song, and yes Michaels is much much better.. And this does not take away at his genius!! But if we have to put the songs side to side to make the songs sound as different as possible.. They are freakin' similar enough to be like "huh??"


Whatever the case, I love Will You Be There.. One of the songs I go back to often both album version and acapella.. it's a really powerful song to me, and vocally I have always liked hearing Michaels lower registers and this song ties in a few things Michael does like no one else. smooth tones and passionate aggression..!
Absolutely. WYBT is one of my all time favorite songs but you have to call it what it is. They are too similiar not be like "huh??" Reminds me of this song from the staples singers

MJ clearly used this melody for Cheater
[youtube]-1pYKdqD1ls[/youtube]
 

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The list of influence Michael has taken from in music is huge.. I don't think we should really be surprised considering one of his greatest strengths is combining various great ideas and mixing them together in its own organic way.. "study the greats and become greater".. This is the same in his clothing style, dance moves, and.. well music! He has used a lot from many.. and no one did it better!! He out did em all in their own game..
 

Themidwestcowboy

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The list of influence Michael has taken from in music is huge.. I don't think we should really be surprised considering one of his greatest strengths is combining various great ideas and mixing them together in its own organic way.. "study the greats and become greater".. This is the same in his clothing style, dance moves, and.. well music! He has used a lot from many.. and no one did it better!! He out did em all in their own game..

Of course, this is what many many famous musician has done throughout the history of music but there is a fine line between being influenced by something and plagiarizing. Not saying he used to plagiarize but that other song was so similar to WYBT it definitely deserves an eye raise.
 

mj_frenzy

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About the plagiarism case, Chailly, who is an Italian musicologist involved in that court case, stated that 37 out of 40 notes (of ‘Will You Be There’ & ‘I Cigni Di Balaka’) are the same, while the opening 6 notes are identical.

In Italy, there are still copies of the ‘Dangerous’ album (which were issued right after the December’s injunction in 1994) without including the song ‘Will You Be There’.

Anyway, I believe that such court cases about plagiarism can become a bit tricky for the judges themselves due to their lack of theoretical musical knowledge so as to arrive at infallible verdicts.
 

KOPV

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A judge will end up going by his or her ear and make a judgement. Of course depending on how much is on the line an "expert" can always be called in.

Than that gets even trickier because unless the judge orders one in, depending if prosecution or defense calling a person in. There is no way for that person to be 100% unbias
 

Slave To The Rhythm

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mj_frenzy;4215316 said:
About the plagiarism case, Chailly, who is an Italian musicologist involved in that court case, stated that 37 out of 40 notes (of ‘Will You Be There’ & ‘I Cigni Di Balaka’) are the same, while the opening 6 notes are identical.

Wow that's really a lot, even though the song sounds so different in the end :eek:


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Slave To The Rhythm

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mj_frenzy;4215316 said:
In Italy, there are still copies of the ‘Dangerous’ album (which were issued right after the December’s injunction in 1994) without including the song ‘Will You Be There’.

Dangerous without will you be there wouldn't be nearly as good as it is as an album.
Love how the album goes in different directions 👌🏼
 

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To me, will you be there is such a staple for that album.. for me nalstogic! Still to this day one of my favorites..

From the song to the performance, i remember when young saying THIS is what i want heaven to sound like.
 
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