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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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His style is very different from that of Putnam, but I think he has done very well and has reached his target into the jury in a simple and I would even say emotional and passional way. He has made some very good points.


Petrarose said:
Again he is saying Michael did not ask them for a contract for Muarry, but how does he know that.
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And he repeated that at the end. He said defense did not prove any evidence MJ wanted it. But I agree with you on this.


----There was something he read from Kai Chase testimony about the oxigen tanks, where apparently she said she didn't see any in April. I read sthg different in the cross that I posted before. Not that it matters much, anyway, but it surprised me the different reply.

He also mentioned as evidence that prop. was not given until May that lidocaine arrived in place in May (8th I think he said).
 
Verdict form (as reported by CNN) : Jurors will have a verdict form with 16 questions to answer during their deliberations. A "no" answer to any of the first five would end their deliberations and the trial immediately.

Question No. 1
Did AEG Live hire Murray?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 2. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 2
Was Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 3. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 3
Did AEG Live know or should it have known that Murray was unfit or incompetent and that this unfitness or incompetence created a particular risk to others?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 4. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 4
Did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 5. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 5
Was AEG Live's negligence in hiring, supervising or retaining Murray a substantial factor in causing Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs' harm?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then the remaining questions. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Questions No. 6-13
If jurors get to question six, it means they've decided AEG Live is liable in Jackson's death. The next eight questions would decide a dollar figure for the economic and noneconomic damages suffered by his mother and children.

Questions No. 14-16
The amount of damages calculated by the jury could be significantly reduced when they reach the last three questions on their verdict form. These ask them to decide how much, if any, Michael Jackson's own negligence was a factor in his death.
 
ivy said:
Verdict form (as reported by CNN) : Jurors will have a verdict form with 16 questions to answer during their deliberations. A "no" answer to any of the first five would end their deliberations and the trial immediately.

Question No. 1
Did AEG Live hire Murray?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 2. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 2
Was Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 3. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 3
Did AEG Live know or should it have known that Murray was unfit or incompetent and that this unfitness or incompetence created a particular risk to others?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 4. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 4
Did Murray's unfitness or incompetence harm Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then answer question 5. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Question No. 5
Was AEG Live's negligence in hiring, supervising or retaining Murray a substantial factor in causing Michael Jackson and the Jackson plaintiffs' harm?
Yes / No

If you answered Yes then the remaining questions. If you answered No stop here answer no further questions.

Questions No. 6-13
If jurors get to question six, it means they've decided AEG Live is liable in Jackson's death. The next eight questions would decide a dollar figure for the economic and noneconomic damages suffered by his mother and children.

Questions No. 14-16
The amount of damages calculated by the jury could be significantly reduced when they reach the last three questions on their verdict form. These ask them to decide how much, if any, Michael Jackson's own negligence was a factor in his death.
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Thank you Ivy.
 
3:05 p.m. ET: Panish puts up a pie chart, showing how much responsibility each side has for Jackson's death -- 20% for Jackson and 80% for AEG Live.

pie-chart.jpg
 
Panish did a good job IMO.

At the beginning I thought the Jacksons had no case, but now I think they have a chance of getting some money. No idea how much though...
 
Petrarose said:
Gosh it's a pity but I can't listen to Panish anymore. I just can't stand chaos and this disorganized rambling is getting on my nerves. I am sure he has some good points but this lack of structure is is too much, so I will return after an hour when hopefully he will be done.
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I had to leave too, so I missed his ramblings:)
I watch it tomorrow from youtube, unless there is a verdict waiting when I wake up.
 
Tygger said:
Indeed. How will the jurors establish what the doctor was there for without a valid written contract? Actions, verbal clues, and relationships establish implied contracts. Was the doctor taking care of Michael's "general care" by administering propofol negligently?
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Putting your patient into a coma is not general medical care, anaesthesia is a specialist profession.
 
Annita said:
3:05 p.m. ET: Panish puts up a pie chart, showing how much responsibility each side has for Jackson's death -- 20% for Jackson and 80% for AEG Live.

pie-chart.jpg
Click to expand...

No wonder KJ didn't ask restitution from CM as they too blame MJ and AEG only. Seemingly CM was an innocent bystander who got cought up in between AEG and MJ.
 
Annita;3909305 said:
3:05 p.m. ET: Panish puts up a pie chart, showing how much responsibility each side has for Jackson's death -- 20% for Jackson and 80% for AEG Live.

pie-chart.jpg
Click to expand...

And Murray?After all he is 100% guilty for Michael´s death.
 
elapentela said:
I think you are very mistaken. After Murray's trial general public had to acknowledge the verdict which said Michael Jackson was a victim of neglected doctor. IMO the perception of MJ in the eyes of general public started to change in the right direction mostly because the media did not have many opportunities to remain the world about his weakness.

After awhile business corporations would start to use his music for advertisements again and the White House would appreciated him more as an influential person in an American culture. Like it was before sexual allegations.
I never doubted that Michael was able to reinvent his image for general public before his death and I still had hopes after his passing. The perception of general public is important for me as pop culture researcher. Unfortunately the latest trial almost stopped the reinvention process. I was happy that the media had other, more important events to cover during the last several months. But letting
cameras in the court room for closing arguments made the media enjoying their drug addiction stories again. During HLN coverage of closing arguments 60-70% of headlines were "Michael Jackson died of drug overdose". This is what general public got from this trial so far and I know very well it was avoidable.
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The general public already had a very simplicistic view of his death and his "addiction". And I did not see many people from the general public interested in this trial. And no it won't make MJ less appreciated as an artist. Like I said if people would want to distance themselves from him because of how he died and his issues with Propofol, then the same people should also distance themselves from most other artists as well: Elvis died in a drug overdose, Kurt Cobain killed himself, Whitney Houston died after she used cocaine, and many of those who live also have drug issues. But still they are appreciated.

When it comes to perceptions about MJ I'm much more worried about those false child abuse allegations - they are a lot more harmful and if people distance themselves from him that is the real reason.
 
80% Responsibility seems extremely high to me - maybe it's just me but I feel for it to be that high AEG would have to be standing over Murray and Murray convincing Michael that he should take the propofol.
 
"That’s all they care about – putting on a concert, making money. They don’t care about Michael Jackson," said Panish. "They didn't want to help Michael do a comeback. They wanted Michael so they could make money."

This got to be the most stupidiest argument ever.

"Panish asks jurors if they are going to let AEG Live "get away with it." He says AEG Live has rows and rows of lawyers."

Panish is trying to play mean corporation has money card to pay row and rows of lawyers, but hopefully jurors has eyes,so they see with their own eyes that plaintiffs has rows and rows lawyers, even more than defense.

"This is the only place where there’s a level playing field," said Panish who also claims that the Jackson family couldn't compete with the huge company without going to court."

Hah, there was never any other option in Jackson family than try to go after the big money. CM didn't have any money so they didn't bother him, you know the one who REALLY killed Michael.

"Murray was under the impression he was hired by AEG Live, according to Panish. He also says it's common for people in this industry to create an oral agreement and then work on a written contract later. If they always waited for the written contract to start working, then Panish says business would never get done."

Well and truly bold lie. AEG tried to get CM's LAPD interview admitted as evidense in which CM said that MJ hired him, but AEG advances the money, judge denied this. I'm sure it is going to be in appeal if AEG loses.

"Dr. Murray was "morally unfit," according to Panish. He says Murray didn’t pay his bills, including child support for the many children he had."

Did you hear that Jackson's?

"Everyone had a concern" about Murray being Jackson's doctor, according to Panish. "They all knew something was wrong."

Seemingly when there was a concern, none of the people around MJ pinpointed that CM was the problem, and this includes plaintiffs star witness and train wreck Karen fake.

"The doctor's duty is to the patient," said Panish who points out that Murray shut down his practice and stopped seeing all his patients in 10 days for money. "Would a fit and competent doctor dump everybody in 10 days, for money?

Metzger did, jurors also heards Adams was ready to leave his practice or what ever he had to go on UK.


"Panish is showing e-mails from AEG Live executives over clips from the "This Is It" movie. The e-mails describe Jackson being thrown into a cold shower, slapped and being a mess." Then he shows RP email about MJ being drunk before announcement in UK.

I find this extremely interesting as RP clearly says that him and TOHME were there and tried to sober up MJ. Why didn't plaintiffs want to call Tohme on stand?

"He was being pressured, he could lose everything he had," said Panish about Jackson. "He wanted to do this -- not only for his children but he had financial issues and he wanted to make money for his children. He was going to give them everything."

Again, AEG and Tohme on behalf of MJ negotiated the contract. Why didn't plaintiffs call Tohme on stand to hear about MJ's contact if they find it so unfavourable for MJ? This is really something that I would love to know why Jackson family is so scared of calling Tohme?

"The fate of Prince Michael, Paris, Blanket and Katherine Jackson is in your hands and I know you’ll do the right thing," said Panish as he concludes his rebuttal closing argument.

PPB and KJ will be ok, but the fate of loser brothers will be in jurors hands, and I too hope jurors do the right thing and award 0 to them. Randy and few other behind this trial can apply a job in local McDonalds and learn to earn they own money, like working for it.
 
Annita said:
3:05 p.m. ET: Panish puts up a pie chart, showing how much responsibility each side has for Jackson's death -- 20% for Jackson and 80% for AEG Live.

pie-chart.jpg
Click to expand...

Was it for Michael's death or for the "hiring" of Murray? I missed that part, and before, at least once, Panish said "Michael Jackson and AEG hired Murray". Don't know if it was a mistake or on purpose.
 
respect77 said:
The general public already had a very simplicistic view of his death and his "addiction". And I did not see many people from the general public interested in this trial. And no it won't make MJ less appreciated as an artist. Like I said if people would want to distance themselves from him because of how he died and his issues with Propofol, then the same people should also distance themselves from most other artists as well: Elvis died in a drug overdose, Kurt Cobain killed himself, Whitney Houston died after she used cocaine, and many of those who live also have drug issues. But still they are appreciated.

When it comes to perceptions about MJ I'm much more worried about those false child abuse allegations - they are a lot more harmful and if people distance themselves from him that is the real reason.
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That's the point. Michael Jackson is very lucky that media is busy with other, more important issues and general public doesn't get the coverage it used to get about Michael Jackson. However I gave you an example just the little coverage happened so far. Just yesterday night HLN gave a whole hour again for chosen from general public 12 jurors to decide if MJ's should get $ 2 billions from AEG. Like the money would get to the kids. Katherine Jackson was mentioned only once or twice during the all show. Of course some of the jurors did mention "what the greed". Did the kids deserved this kind of comments? They were not even asked to be part of this suit. And I see a lot more that kind of comments in the future...
 
Dang son! Murray didn't even make the pie chart Mr. Panish displayed. WOW!

In my opinion, that was a huge mistake.

Now when the Murderer Murray gets out of prison (any day now) he can carry around this pie chart and say during his first interview: "see I told you it wasn't my fault, Michael's Mother's attorney even said so when he displayed his pie chart."

Low Blow!
 
The Chart is to show how much blame goes to both MJ 20% and AEG 80% for Murray's actions for MJ death! But, in no way it's excusing Murray, the guy is in jail for killing MJ, hello! The Jury ain't stupid they know that! After all this is to show the Negligence of AEG part so of course the chart will talk about that, it's what the trial was about, their PART in all of this! We know Murray's part, he had a trial! Anyway, I think The Jacksons got this, hopefully!? Not saying I agree with the percentage, that's up to the jury. But, let's not pretend many here didn't say MJ was an adult and also blamed him!
 
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elapentela said:
That's the point. Michael Jackson is very lucky that media is busy with other, more important issues and general public doesn't get the coverage it used to get about Michael Jackson. However I gave you an example just the little coverage happened so far. Just yesterday night HLN gave a whole hour again for chosen from general public 12 jurors to decide if MJ's should get $ 2 billions from AEG. Like the money would get to the kids. Katherine Jackson was mentioned only once or twice during the all show. Of course some of the jurors did mention "what the greed". Did the kids deserved this kind of comments? They were not even asked to be part of this suit. And I see a lot more that kind of comments in the future...
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The media are a**holes, alright, but that's nothing new. They'd be a**holes to MJ and his kids even without this trial, as usual. Look, I'm not saying this trial is great. I think it was born out of greed by the Jacksons. On the other hand I don't understand this big rooting for AEG here either, because IMO they are shady too. I don't care who wins this, it's all about the money for both sides and no one is the good guy here.

And the media was busy with other issues simply because this trial bores the general public (even many fans do not follow it). They are not interested in this either way. Anyway, the point was that I don't think this trial harms Michael's image in the huge and dramatic ways you described. There are other things - lies - said about him which are a lot more harmful to his image.
 
Maybe the pie chart means that they are saying Michael's death due to Murray is mostly AEG's fault. Did anybody watch last night the HLN show HLN Dark? with Vinnie. This one lawyer was so rude about Michael and all his facts came from tabloids. Tom Messereau was on and like always he defended Michael so well.
 
Bluetopez thank you for explaining the pie chart correctly.

LastTear said:
Putting your patient into a coma is not general medical care, anaesthesia is a specialist profession.
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Last Tear, be careful, that type of reasoning supports the plaintiffs.

Panish's connection to the use of lidocaine in May (for the administration of propofol) and the doctor's retroactive employment contract that began in May was inspired.
 
bluetopez said:
The Chart is to show how much blame goes to both MJ 20% and AEG 80% for Murray's actions for MJ death!
IMO this can help the jury actually find AEG liable!
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marebear said:
Maybe the pie chart means that they are saying Michael's death due to Murray is mostly AEG's fault. Did anybody watch last night the HLN show HLN Dark? with Vinnie. This one lawyer was so rude about Michael and all his facts came from tabloids. Tom Messereau was on and like always he defended Michael so well.
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Thanks to both, it's what I thought then, responsibility in the negligent hiring.

What did Mez say yesterday?
 
X
bluetopez said:
The Chart is to show how much blame goes to both MJ 20% and AEG 80% for Murray's actions for MJ death! But, in no way it's excusing Murray, the guy is in jail for killing MJ, hello! The Jury ain't stupid they know that! After all this is to show the Negligence of AEG part so of course the chart will talk about that, it's what the trial was about, their PART in all of this! We know Murray's part, he had a trial! Anyway, I think The Jacksons got this, hopefully!? Not saying I agree with the percentage, that's up to the jury. But, let's not pretend many here didn't say MJ was an adult and also blamed him!
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Last edited:
Last Tear, in the real world, the administration of propofol is not general care and a cardiologist is not qualified to administer it. The plaintiffs have maintained this. If you feel otherwise, you may want to clarify your statement so you will not be misunderstood.
 
respect77 said:
... I don't understand this big rooting for AEG here either, because IMO they are shady too. I don't care who wins this, it's all about the money for both sides and no one is the good guy here...
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i also do not understand the massive support for aeg and how many people consider them to be innocent and even the victim.
just wow.
 
Tygger said:
Last Tear, in the real world, the administration of propofol is not general care and a cardiologist is not qualified to administer it. The plaintiffs have maintained this. If you feel otherwise, you may want to clarify your statement so you will not be misunderstood.
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That is what I said. It only helps the Plantiffs if they had proven that AEG knew of the use of propofol.
 
Question 1 what we have been talking about this whole time.

Did AEG hire Murray
Yes or No?
 
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