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Murray Trial - October 13 - Day 12 - Discussion

elusive moonwalker

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thanks for all the updates yesterday guys.

flannagan starts with cross
 
Re: Murray Trial day 12. October 13th.

anyone having issues with the mjjunderground stream
 
Sound's working alright now! Well it is on the MJJC one anyway.
 
flannagans going on about mj saying nothing else but diprivan worked for me. and that mj was resistant to murray trying to help him. what does the witness do if your paitent is resistant?

paitent has a right to refuse therapy if they make an informed choice. what do u do if he refuses therapy? make sure hes of sound judgement and if they are that is the paitents choice and right

did u make a decision of whtehr mj was of sound judgement? after reading murrays records.? the witness cant say based just on murrays records.

witnesss says he refuses care if he thinks it wrong dr says again and again i would refuse if a paitent asks for something thats wrong. and i would ask the paitent why do u want this drug and treatment. i wouldnt just say get another dr. i would try and find out the issues. dr says theres no info from murray saying he had these discussions with mj. flannagan disagrees objections substained.

back to saying if the paitent wants something wrong falnnagan asks you would tell the paitent im not your dr anymore. witness says no i wouldnt. i would talk to the paitent and find the root of the problem. find out if mj has an understanding of what hes asking for that is wrong.

flannagan keeps asking the question again and again ie you would tell him to get another dr. the dr says no yet again and gives the same answer as above. i will get you another expert get you proper help

great answers above. flanagan got nothing
 
Another good witness. Knows what he's talking about and giving Flanagan a run for his money!
 
The fact that he didn't record it mean you only have Murray's word and you've already established that Murray is a liar or at the very least have a self-serving memory, moron.
 
flanagan says mj treated with dip for 2 months. flanagan says theres were no problems during that time? dr says i cant answer as i dont have mjs day to day records.

making a decision on the standard of care. the end result is not taken in when making a ruling on whether it a gross deveation. ie flannagan saying you only called it a gross violation cause mj died.. dr disagrees. the end result is not important. a dr can cause gross negligence even if the paitent doesnt die. its all about the standard of care

flanagan asks what happened on june 25th? do you know? dr says mj was given treatement in the wrong setting without the right equipment reciepe for disaster. inaproiate access to medical equipment not dialing 911. being dehydrated. etc

a cocktail of drugs flanagan says whats that. dr goes on about valium loraz etc etc and diprivan at around 1040. flannagan says how much diprivan? dr says 25mg. would 25mg cause mjs death? absoloutly says the dr.. and mentions the effect of loraz etc

dr says there were no records of what murray had given and when. there was no charting from that night at all. flanagans claiming murray had the info but didnt write it down. dr says. you dont keep info in your heads you have to write it down. so trends can be looked at by the drs etc flanangan objected the witness responce the objection was over ruled lol

you keep records of all your paitents? yes. the fact murray didnt take records means you (the witness cant check) the dr says no it means murray cant check later either. it hurts murray u cant store that info in your head. you forget. you cant follow trends in your head

have you spent 9 hrs no stop with a paitent. answer yes i have . hes done it in the ICU department. talks about a nurse always been there aswell. nurse takes notes all the time notes about the paitent and any changes they are observing.dr makes notes all the time. and i need to check them all the time to work out what happened before and in the moment.

drs saying the standard of care is to write down notes and it very bad care to not write notes down when u are using sedatives. flanagan says murray not writing down i gave loraz at 2am that didnt kill mj, dr says he didnt write down anything. B.P vital signs etc etc etc flanagan keeps saying not writing down the loraz and when it was given didnt kill mj. the drs not having it. shots flanagan down.. the failure to chart was a contribution to his mj death. it was bad doctoring.if the dr did everything right but didnt chart then yes thats not as important but murray did so many things wrong it was all combined

now getting on to loraz and trying to imply it was the loraz that took mj away from us.
 
Flan is trying to say the combination of 2.6 Propofol + 1.69 of Loraz is what killed Michael....and I supposed we ignore the other violations that Murray did which would have saved him and or not have put Michael even in that position...twat.

I like this Doctor as well, as he won't get drawn into commenting on areas he's not an expert on.
 
volitional said:
Flan is trying to say the combination of 2.6 Propofol + 1.69 of Loraz is what killed Michael....and I supposed we ignore the other violations that Murray did which would have saved him and or not have put Michael even in that position...twat.
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They can't really argued on the standard of care without making Murray look worst. So, they're trying to keep it on drug levels and self-injecting.
 
why the defense is now insisting on the femoral blood level? I thought the heart blood was the most accurate one and the femoral one was the least accurate out of the three blood concentrations , right? downplaying now the propofol factor !
 
Oh Oh the cross is going well for the pros. Dr said that he needed documentation so he could follow the trend. Documentation must include vital signs as well and not simply medication. You cannot rely on what is in your memory. Even if you work 9 hours with one patient, nurses are charting the information. Flanagan is trying to say that Muarry knew what the information was, and that lack of charting did not kill Michael. The doctor is said that it is a combination of effects.

I wanted the doctor to spell out that it was because Muarry did not chart, he did not know when he gave XYZ medication that Michael heart rate, respitation, etc. was in a critical condition and therefore, lack of charting contributed to his death.

Oh Flanagan is asking about demoral from Klien's records. I guess he is trying to say that because Michael had it days ago, it caused his death.
 
Flan is going on about Klein and Demerol.

Dr K: Says Michael clearly had a problem with insomnia....he says it's difficult to make a determination on type of insomnia for some one not treating a patient, but seems may have had secondary causes like anxiety and perhaps reliance on some medication.

Flan wants a yes or no answer but Dr K is not having any of that saying things are not black or white esp as he doesn't have all the information.
 
Now you're admitted it was long-term after you played with the drug withdrawal angle? Dammit defense, make up your mind.
 
Flanagan seems adamant on trying to stop the Prosecution objecting... Everytime Walgren says 'Objection' Flanny says 'I'm asking a question'
 
is it me or the doctor yesterday mentioned the lack of sunlight as a huge factor in causing insomnia he was talking about ICU patients , but no one stressed that fact ,how much vitiligo played role in MJ's insomnia, It would have been great to do that instead of talking about drug withdrawal and anxiety , the expert is downplaying the problem talking about 'secondary' issues .
 
That's right, emphasized Murray's failure at record keeping and didn't talk to the other doctors he thrown off the bus.

Are you sure this guy doesn't have it out for Murray?
 
Soundmind said:
is it me or the doctor yesterday mentioned the lack of sunlight as a huge factor in causing insomnia he was talking about ICU patients , but no one stressed that fact ,how much vitiligo played role in MJ's insomnia, It would have been great to do that instead of talking about drug withdrawal and anxiety , the expert is downplaying the problem talking about 'secondary' issues .
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It isn't his job to figure out what caused Michael insomnia. He's there to highlight that Murray failed to realized and ruled out these things himself. Murray should be the one asking these questions, not this doctor who never even met Michael. So, he shouldn't have an opinion, that would be leading.
 
Flanagan is really trying to say Michael had needle marks. Did the autopsy show these marks, except for where he had the IV? He is really going for the drug angle here.
 
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