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Thread: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies?

   
   
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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    I know many of Wikipedia's sources and that's exactly how I know their info is wrong. For example, the MJ article is largely based on J. Randy Taraborelli's book. Enough said.

    I used to have a conversation about it with one of Wikipedia's editors and he told me that Wikipedia is not about the truth, but about "verifyability". According to their policy, verifyability means if you can provide a book or an article as a source for a claim that's verifyable. Now, how many sources one can provide about MJ that are not true? Books such as Diane Dimond's, Bob Jones', articles such as Maureen Orth's. Does that make those claims true? No. But they can be quoted in the Wikipedia article, because they have been printed.

    Wikipedia is generally not considered a reliable source. Here are some reasons why: http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/...Wikipedia.html

    You have to take anything on Wikipedia with a ton of salt.
    But see, here's my problem with that:

    If it's true that Wikipedia only posts for verifiability and "not truth", then where's all the other books that documents about Michael's sales not yet posted in books? No one has seem to answer that. Just answer it from their "sources".

    I do think MJD's sales on Thriller are more accurate than Wikipedia's though. I'll post those in a minute when I find them.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    MJDangerous said:

    WORLDWIDE

    CONFIRMED SALES ONLY

    Thriller - 55,244,000

    Minimum estimate - Worldwide: 65,000,000

    America - 36,043,000
    Minimum estimate - America: 38,500,000
    USA - 29,400,000 (08/2009)
    Canada - 2,400,000 (Dec 1986) + 55,000 (T25)
    Mexico - 1,600,000 (2009) + 120,000 (T25)
    Brasil - 1,200,000 (2001) + 250,500 (codes)
    Argentina - 577,000 (1999) + 20,000 (T25 Classic) + 20,000 (T25 Zombie) = 617,000
    Chile - 400,000 (2008)

    Europe - 14,960,000
    Minimum estimate - Europe: 17,800,000
    UK - 3,300,000 (1992) + 654,000 (shop sales 92-08) + 57,000 (club sales post93) + 300,000 (T25) + 248,000 (2009) = 4,559,000
    France - 2,700,000 (2001) + 108,000 (2003-2008) + 220,000 (T25) + 365,000 (2009) + 20,000 (2010) = 3,413,000
    Germany - 1,500,000 (1995) + 55,000 (T25)
    Italy - 1,190,000 (2001) + 35,000 (T25) + 94,000 (2009) + 5,000 (T25 2009) = 1,326,000
    Spain - 600,000 (1984) + 60,000 (T25) = 660,000
    Finland - 119,000 (2009)
    Sweden - 400,000 (2008) + 20,000 (T25) = 420,000
    Austria - 400,000 (2008)
    Switzerland - 300,000 (1995) + 15,000 (T25) + 15,000 (2009) = 330,000
    Netherland - 800,000 (1996) + 30,000 (T25) = 830,000
    Portugal - 80,000 (2008) + 20,000 (T25) = 100,000
    Belgium - 550,000 + 15,000 (T25) = 565,000
    Denmark - 180,000 (2008)
    Greece - 100,000 (1983)
    Poland - 20,000 (T25)
    Ireland - 7,500 (T25)
    Norway - 150,000 (2009)
    Czechoslovakia - 100,000 (imports, April 1985)
    Yugoslavia - 112,000 (june 1984)
    Hungary - 3,000 (T25)
    Russia - 10,000 (T25)

    Oceania - 1,230,000
    Minimum estimate - Oceania: 1,300,000
    Australia - 1,050,000 (2009)
    New-Zealand - 180,000 (2009)

    Asia - 2,911,000
    Minimum estimate - Asia: 5,000,000
    Japan - 2,500,000 + 122,000 (T25) + 51,000 (2009)
    Singapore - 40,000
    Hong Kong - 80,000
    South Korea - 3,000 (T25)
    India - 100,000 (2009) + 15,000 (T25) = 115,000

    South Africa - 100,000
    ----
    As you can see, there's no proof of "Thriller" selling outside South Africa in the continent of Africa despite his popularity in some of that continent's countries (but James Brown was also popular in Africa so that doesn't really say much tbh).

    As you can see from Asia, there's no proof yet of how much it sold in the Philippines and there's not enough knowledge if it was even released there as international albums aren't as marketable there as domestic albums are. Similar with Vietnam. Of course only South Korea sells albums, I doubt you'll get any sales up North lol

    As you can tell these sales are from 2009. It needs an update but unfortunately MJD (who sometimes posts as GhostMJD in UK Mix) hasn't updated since he was suspended from his original MJD account (I forgot why). Thriller sold 1.2 million in Australia. There's no telling how many copies Thriller actually sold in the U.S. in 2010, 2011 or 2012 or even now. And no one has said how many shipments/sales Thriller gets a year. In the UK, instead of 4.5 million, it's 4.2 million because they didn't add from club and shop sales, just "official" sales.

    Like I said, it's very difficult to tally up. But here, at least you get a sense of what's going on.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by troubleman84 View Post
    But see, here's my problem with that:

    If it's true that Wikipedia only posts for verifiability and "not truth", then where's all the other books that documents about Michael's sales not yet posted in books? No one has seem to answer that. Just answer it from their "sources".

    I do think MJD's sales on Thriller are more accurate than Wikipedia's though. I'll post those in a minute when I find them.
    The editing of Wikipedia is a war of agendas. You can easily provide sources for both the claim that Thriller sold 100 million or that it sold 50 million and anything in between as both numbers were printed numerous times in the media, thus both are verifyable by Wiki's standards. Which number will remain in the article eventually depends on which group is pushing their agenda stronger. Just read the article about Wiki I have linked in my previous post.

    Thing is there seem to be people on Wikipedia with especially strong anti-MJ agendas. In the case of album sales it came to that in MJ's case almost only the certified numbers are acknowledged now by Wikipedia, while in the case of other albums it's enough for people to find some article which published some exaggerated number about an album's sale and they will print that number without a problem. See this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...selling_albums

    It says Thriller sold 51-65 million copies. But also says Back in Black by AC/DC sold 50 million copies. Now, compare both album's certified sales. 42.3 million for Thriller, but only 25.9 million for Back in Black. But they have no problem claiming that both album's sales are about in the same range, just because there are articles which claim Black in Back sold 50 million. So it's a bit of double standards. For other albums it's enough to quote some PR driven article, but for Thriller they almost only accept the certified units. It's a joke really.

    Or let's put it this way: Back in Black is certified 22 million in the USA, Thriller 29 million. In all other markets where certifications are available for both albums Thriller clearly (and often by far) outsold Back in Black. So is it realistic to say now that BIB sold 50 million and Thriller 51 million? I don't think so. I think to say that Thriller sold at least about 65 million would not be off the mark or irrealistic, considering its certifications.
    Last edited by respect77; 11-06-2013 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    The editing of Wikipedia is a war of agendas. You can easily provide sources for both the claim that Thriller sold 100 million or that it sold 50 million and anything in between as both numbers were printed numerous times in the media, thus both are verifyable by Wiki's standards. Which number will remain in the article eventually depends on which group is pushing their agenda stronger. Just read the article about Wiki I have linked in my previous post.

    Thing is there seem to be people on Wikipedia with especially strong anti-MJ agendas. In the case of album sales it came to that in MJ's case almost only the certified numbers are acknowledge now by Wikipedia, while in the case of other albums it's enough for people to find some article which published some exaggerated number about an album's sale and they will print that number without a problem. See this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...selling_albums

    It says Thriller sold 51-65 million copies. But also says Back in Black by AC/DC sold 50 million copies. Now, compare both album's certified sales. 42.3 million for Thriller, but only 25.9 million for Black in Black. But they have no problem claiming that both album's sales are about in the same range, just because there are articles which claim Black in Back sold 50 million. So it's a bit of double standards. For other albums it's enough to quote articles, but for Thriller they almost only accept the certified units. It's a joke really.

    Or let's put it this way: Back in Black is certified 22 million in the USA, Thriller 29 million. In all other markets where certifications are available for both albums Thriller clearly (and often by far) outsold Back in Black. So is it realistic to say now that BIB sold 50 million and Thriller 51 million? I don't think so. I think to say that Thriller sold at least about 65 million would not be off the mark or irrealistic, considering its certifications.
    Like I said 65 million is a more realistic number. But I'm still waiting on the book where all the real sales are brought and not just from some outrageous number. That's why it's easy to claim Elvis, Beatles and MJ sold a billion because it boosts that act's reputation but getting down to the nitty gritty is not as simple as one would think. We just don't know.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by troubleman84 View Post
    Like I said 65 million is a more realistic number. But I'm still waiting on the book where all the real sales are brought and not just from some outrageous number.
    What book are you expecting about it? Do you think that everything that is printed in a book must be correct?

    I think MJDangerous' numbers are about correct. I too tend to estimate the sales of Thriller at about 65-66 million.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    And here is a list that highlights the problem of certifications vs. actual sales very well. This is the list of best selling albums in France: http://www.infodisc.fr/CDCertif_D.php?debut=50

    Thriller is certified as Diamond there, meaning it was certified after it sold 1 million copies (in 1988) and never since. However its actual sales stand at ~2.4 million as you can see in the other column. (Same for all other MJ albums on that list - they are undercertified). But in that best selling albums list on Wiki where they quote the certified sales as 42.3 million, they only counted the 1 million. And that could be the same for many other countries.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    What book are you expecting about it? Do you think that everything that is printed in a book must be correct?

    I think MJDangerous' numbers are about correct. I too tend to estimate the sales of Thriller at about 65-66 million.
    lol I don't know... anything that traces whatever sold. *shrug*

    But yeah MJD's estimates are as closest as we're gonna get to it.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post
    And here is a list that highlights the problem of certifications vs. actual sales very well. This is the list of best selling albums in France: http://www.infodisc.fr/CDCertif_D.php?debut=50

    Thriller is certified as Diamond there, meaning it was certified after it sold 1 million copies (in 1988) and never since. However its actual sales stand at ~2.4 million as you can see in the other column. (Same for all other MJ albums on that list - they are undercertified). But in that best selling albums list on Wiki where they quote the certified sales as 42.3 million, they only counted the 1 million. And that could be the same for many other countries.
    In the Thriller Wikipedia page, they correctly used the over 2.3 million estimates so I don't know why they used the one million for the best-selling albums page.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by troubleman84 View Post
    In the Thriller Wikipedia page, they correctly used the over 2.3 million estimates so I don't know why they used the one million for the best-selling albums page.
    I guess because they only use the official certifications there.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    I can't speak for all the other countries but that number for The Netherlands (800,000) is way too low. Thriller was certified eight times platinum in the 1980s, which means it already sold over 800,000 copies back then. I'm pretty sure people still bought Thriller after the 1980s, especially after MJ's death.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
    I can't speak for all the other countries but that number for The Netherlands (800,000) is way too low. Thriller was certified eight times platinum in the 1980s, which means it already sold over 800,000 copies back then. I'm pretty sure people still bought Thriller after the 1980s, especially after MJ's death.
    Eight times platinum in the Netherlands don't mean eight million sales though. So in Netherlands estimates, where is he? 1 million in actual sales?


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by troubleman84 View Post
    Eight times platinum in the Netherlands don't mean eight million sales though. So in Netherlands estimates, where is he? 1 million in actual sales?
    Who said anything about eight million sales? Until the 1990s, an album was certified platinum in The Netherlands if it sold 100,000 copies. Thriller was certified eight times platinum in the 1980s, which means it sold 800,000 copies already back then. It's impossible that this number didn't change in 30 years' time, especially after Michael's death when his sales went through the roof here. I can't find any recent data on Thriller's record sales from a reliable source but it must be over 1 million, at least. The Dutch Wikipedia says 2 million but it doesn't provide a source. The English Wikipedia puts it at 1.4 million in 2001 citing a newspaper article. In any case, it's way higher than the 800,000 that was quoted in your post.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
    Who said anything about eight million sales? Until the 1990s, an album was certified platinum in The Netherlands if it sold 100,000 copies. Thriller was certified eight times platinum in the 1980s, which means it sold 800,000 copies already back then. It's impossible that this number didn't change in 30 years' time, especially after Michael's death when his sales went through the roof here. I can't find any recent data on Thriller's record sales from a reliable source but it must be over 1 million, at least. The Dutch Wikipedia says 2 million but it doesn't provide a source. The English Wikipedia puts it at 1.4 million in 2001 citing a newspaper article. In any case, it's way higher than the 800,000 that was quoted in your post.
    I wonder why the estate hasn't asked Sony Europe to audit its sales to IFPI if it supposedly did two million in the Netherlands. What are the biggest-selling albums in the Netherlands, do you know?


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by troubleman84 View Post
    I wonder why the estate hasn't asked Sony Europe to audit its sales to IFPI if it supposedly did two million in the Netherlands. What are the biggest-selling albums in the Netherlands, do you know?
    I don't understand that either. I know it costs money to update the certifications but to me, it's worth it.

    For some odd reason, I can't find any information on the biggest-selling albums in The Netherlands. Thriller is definitely up there, though. In 2010, it was all over the news that Caro Emerald (a Dutch singer) had broken Michael Jackson's record from 1983 for most weeks at #1. Thriller was #1 for 26 weeks.

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    Default Re: Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies

    Quote Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
    I don't understand that either. I know it costs money to update the certifications but to me, it's worth it.

    For some odd reason, I can't find any information on the biggest-selling albums in The Netherlands. Thriller is definitely up there, though. In 2010, it was all over the news that Caro Emerald (a Dutch singer) had broken Michael Jackson's record from 1983 for most weeks at #1. Thriller was #1 for 26 weeks.
    Interesting. There needs to be more information. It turns out not too many information about other countries are known of what sold most. It's confusing. Makes me question each artist's sales sometimes. Especially before the 1980s and 1990s. Most worldwide sales info you get now are from albums that came out 15 years ago, not 30 years like Thriller.


    "OK, first of all, I have this skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It's something that I cannot help. Okay? But when people make up stories that I don't wanna be what I am, it hurts me. It's a problem for me, okay? I can't control it. But let's reverse it. What about all the millions of people who sit out in the sun to become other than what they are?" -- Michael Jackson (1993)

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