Statement from MJ Estate Pg 12 #170 / New Yorker - Did Thriller Really Sell a 100 Million Copies?

[MIST]

Presley moved the universe to himself.

I think it means Elvis wanted the universe for himself.:scratch:
How selfish

 

[MjsLovelyOne88]

I think it means Elvis wanted the universe for himself.:scratch:
How selfish

Or maybe it means Michael had to work hard to get people to like him while Elvis was "so great" that everyone gravitated towards him :scratch: pretty pretentious..

 

[Muchos]

Guys, dont waste your good energy on articles like this! People in their hearts of heart know the truth! Genereal public know the truth! MJ will forever remain GREAT, why? Because he was a mystery. A riddle. A legend and a myth. He was magic and beyond our fantasy. His work will speak for him.

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their own level and then beat you with experience"

 

[MJBT]

There just gonna have to accept the truth Michael Jackson was more than an entertainer he was a legend who a achieved more in his life time than any other artist before or since.

He never went around bragging about how many albums he had sold the one time I remember hearing him talking about sales was on his home movies during the 1984 grammys segment.

2:27 in "Its 60 something million now"

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/GgNqJn9bc1s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Moonwalker.Fan]

We have said it here before but I must repeat it MJ is not safe. Being an old white person I know the media want a safe black person. Denzel Washington is safe, Oprah Winfrey is safe, Michael Jackson is not. He is not safe because he doesn't bow down to anyone, he can't be controlled, he doesn't mind his words in his music, his dancing music appeals to all (he stole all us white people), he is masculine without being "masculine". Michael never apologized for 1993 and then 2005 so no media will "forgive him." How dare he not say I was wrong while going on every talk show? Michael was never safe therefore it will take generations longer for him to get his historical credit, these white folks need to be dead and buried before his true history is written.

What did they expect after the 1993 allegations? That MJ will just act like nothing happened? Apparently that's what the media wanted. They wanted him to take their every hit without uttering a word back.
--respect77

I agree. Michael was in a no-win situation. If he took the hit, that wouldn't help; if he fought, it made it worse b/c then he got criticized for being angry and paranoid. I think in the 93 situation it was the same. If he settled, look what happened. But when he fought and won in 05, what happened? It was another no-win situation, either way. Look how it is now, and Michael is dead and gone but do they stop their bashing, their denigration, their belittlement? Hell, no.

Believe me, I loved Elvis but I also know there were a lot of great musicians and singers that came before him, and for Bill Wyman to act like Elvis emerged and invented an audience--no, the audience was already there. What about Dick Clark and American Bandstand--the whole argument is nuts.

BTW, this thing about the (mostly white) media trying to determine who deserves to be called an artist and who is "only an entertainer" has so clear racist attitudes behind it. (Just look at what type of music is usually considered "art" and what "just entertainment"! Of course, (white) rock music is almost always considered "art". While dancable, rhythm music (ie. black music) most of the time is just considered entertainment... Even if their lyrics are actually not that light. Just think of Billie Jean or Heartbreak Hotel, and I could go on.)

Michael just could not win in that department. When his lyrics actually became deeper and more personal that's when he was dismissed the most. My favorite example is how the US media praised You Are Not Alone as the best song from HIStory and how that was the only song that went Nr 1 in the US from that album. It kind of sent out a message to Michael: "this is what we want you to do - harmless little love songs, not something that stirs things". Not something like Earth Song, Stranger in Moscow, Scream, They Don't Care About Us, Little Susie, Money (which are all better songs than YANA and have lot deeper lyrics too). Or when critics criticized HIStory for being angry. What did they expect after the 1993 allegations? That MJ will just act like nothing happened? Apparently that's what the media wanted. They wanted him to take their every hit without uttering a word back.

So this kind of tells us that the media wanted MJ to be "merely an entertainer", but the problem for them is that he actually was not. In this showbusiness world one of the bravest things to do is to call out the media on their deception, their lies, the way they operate. Not many artists will do that, because of course they all depend on the good graces of the media at the end of the day. But Michael did challenge them. Artists do that too: cover subjects which are risky, which are not popular and tell it like it is, even if they may be forced to pay for that.

so... could (all of) you re-write it in the comments on the articles discussions on the net?!

amazing thoughts!

 

[qbee]

Yes you are preaching to the choir in here. Post it on the article so the ignorant can read it.

 

[jamba]

Yes you are preaching to the choir in here. Post it on the article so the ignorant can read it.

Qbee, I went to the site to post and found THIS terrific post that I just have to share with 'the choir.'

Wyman ... we grew up on the likes of Fats Domino, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Bill Haley, Little Richard, some reggae and Irish music, due to our mother&#8217;s often loud record playing. However, the Beatles never appealed to her, so we didn&#8217;t learn of them until later. We respected these artists she played. However, we grew up and formed our own preferences. Some of us now like some Beatles songs, too, but none of the above affected us in a profound way.

Presley&#8217;s claimed sales do not add up; very odd, to say the least - regardless of the GB of WR recent listing - which they obviously should have investigated further - rather than go by a plaque which was simply given by the same Record label who made that sales claim &#8211; The same record label who, for some reason, had only recently applied to GB of R to have it entered. Now&#8230; What I am saying here goes for the Beatles, too.

Whether EP's sales were lost to history or not - (And this &#8220;uncounted&#8221;, &#8221;lost&#8221; business contributes to some of those who are chancing such claims, by the way) - common sense regarding lack of evidence, such as: taped recordings / news excerpts, etc. of constant chart toppers /successes on a *worldwide* scale &#8211; with sold-out ARENA-size concerts that broke records &#8211; Endless awards from all known music establishments , and in an array of different countries, and on and on.

No evidence of an artist who created and broke *numerous* records due to &#8220;unprecedented&#8221;/ &#8220;unparalleled&#8221; feats as an artist; Someone who, as far back as 1992, was awarded for being the &#8220;FIRST artist to sell over 100 million records OUTSIDE of the US&#8221; - An artist who has, on numerous televised occasions, been hailed /quoted as the biggest selling artist ever, while they were being handed countless music awards by various music establishments. An artist who has *numerous* listings in the Guinness Book of World Records &#8211;

An artist who has been hailed as the &#8216;Most Successful Artist of All Time&#8217;! An artist who happens to be the &#8216;Most Decorated Artist in History&#8217; &#8211; An artist who has also won the titles of: Artist of The Decade &#8211; Artist of The Century &#8211; Pop Artist of The Millennium, (Bambi) awards. An artist who broke records with some of the biggest paid commercial deals in history &#8230; Even with deals AFTER his passing. An artist whose videos and concert tours became anticipated, colossal events.

Due to his genius, *commercial way of thinking as an entertainer, we also have an artist whose image / memory / legacy will be ETERNALLY evoked and linked the world over, by the very sight of a Glittering / Sequined glove - a Trilby-style hat with Sunglasses &#8211; a Black Sequined Jacket &#8211; White Sequenced socks; especially when teamed with penny-loafer style shoes &#8211; White taped fingers - Military style jackets &#8211; Gold pants &#8211; Side-striped Ankle-length trousers, and so on. Those images will be eternally linked to MJ. Eternally, Michal Jackson! Very clever, indeed!!

An artist whose name is known in the remotest parts of earth! An artist who is globally recognised by the initials, MJ &#8211; The King of Pop, Rock & Soul - The Gloved One, and of course, The King of Pop &#8211;or, (KOP). The ONLY artist I know of, who appealed to and has been imitated by ALL ages &#8211; people from 3 to 83 &#8211; people of ALL skin tones, religions, races, cultures, gay /straight, and on and on.

An artist who caused fainting and crying amongst MALES, as well as females! And, of course, an artist, who, even after the lurid, money-hungry vultures and media pounded down on him, continued to release albums that were STILL amongst the top selling worldwide; including having one for 30+ years that STILL remains the biggest selling in history. It had long got to the point where all he had to do was pop up from beneath the stage and stand still for almost 5 minutes, without uttering a word, and fans screamed, chanted his name and screamed even louder when he merely turned his head in the opposite direction.

An artist whose name and initials became a household name worldwide. It&#8217;s ALL there, ALL recorded into world history and set into stone&#8230; and on and on. Well, Phew! Many wouldn&#8217;t be too surprised if that particular artist WAS actually the biggest selling artist in history. Now, THAT kind of artistic legacy would be more convincing concerning sales claims!! As an all-round entertaining artist, he was the biggest phenomenon in history on a *GLOBAL* scale&#8230;And, there isn&#8217;t ANY-thing that ANY media-head, journalist /blogger can write, do or say that will change this fact! Nothing!!

Posted 1/6/2013, 12:56:39am by Whatever2012

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...l-a-hundred-million-copies.html#ixzz2HREMiriG

 

[8701girl]

That post is fantastic :clap: and i love this part especially

and,there isn't ANY thing ANY media-head, journalist/blogger can write , do or say that will change this fact NOTHING! !

 

[marebear]

Lies runs sprints but the truth runs marathons.

 

[felipemj]

I don't believe the 100 million mark. Everyone was talking about 50-60 and all of a sudden, in something like 2006, an association claimed 100 million. That was to make Michael show up there to receive an award, what he did, and create some publicy for them. The excuse for the enormous jump of sales was that they had added the singles, so was not 100 million albums, but records. The fact is, in 1989, Billie Jean and Beat It singles had sold 1 million each... nobody buyed them after that.
The only reliable source are the ones not making money with the information.

 

[144000]

Qbee, I went to the site to post and found THIS terrific post that I just have to share with 'the choir.'

Wyman ... we grew up on the likes of Fats Domino, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Bill Haley, Little Richard, some reggae and Irish music, due to our mother&#8217;s often loud record playing. However, the Beatles never appealed to her, so we didn&#8217;t learn of them until later. We respected these artists she played. However, we grew up and formed our own preferences. Some of us now like some Beatles songs, too, but none of the above affected us in a profound way.

Presley&#8217;s claimed sales do not add up; very odd, to say the least - regardless of the GB of WR recent listing - which they obviously should have investigated further - rather than go by a plaque which was simply given by the same Record label who made that sales claim &#8211; The same record label who, for some reason, had only recently applied to GB of R to have it entered. Now&#8230; What I am saying here goes for the Beatles, too.

Whether EP's sales were lost to history or not - (And this &#8220;uncounted&#8221;, &#8221;lost&#8221; business contributes to some of those who are chancing such claims, by the way) - common sense regarding lack of evidence, such as: taped recordings / news excerpts, etc. of constant chart toppers /successes on a *worldwide* scale &#8211; with sold-out ARENA-size concerts that broke records &#8211; Endless awards from all known music establishments , and in an array of different countries, and on and on.

No evidence of an artist who created and broke *numerous* records due to &#8220;unprecedented&#8221;/ &#8220;unparalleled&#8221; feats as an artist; Someone who, as far back as 1992, was awarded for being the &#8220;FIRST artist to sell over 100 million records OUTSIDE of the US&#8221; - An artist who has, on numerous televised occasions, been hailed /quoted as the biggest selling artist ever, while they were being handed countless music awards by various music establishments. An artist who has *numerous* listings in the Guinness Book of World Records &#8211;

An artist who has been hailed as the &#8216;Most Successful Artist of All Time&#8217;! An artist who happens to be the &#8216;Most Decorated Artist in History&#8217; &#8211; An artist who has also won the titles of: Artist of The Decade &#8211; Artist of The Century &#8211; Pop Artist of The Millennium, (Bambi) awards. An artist who broke records with some of the biggest paid commercial deals in history &#8230; Even with deals AFTER his passing. An artist whose videos and concert tours became anticipated, colossal events.

Due to his genius, *commercial way of thinking as an entertainer, we also have an artist whose image / memory / legacy will be ETERNALLY evoked and linked the world over, by the very sight of a Glittering / Sequined glove - a Trilby-style hat with Sunglasses &#8211; a Black Sequined Jacket &#8211; White Sequenced socks; especially when teamed with penny-loafer style shoes &#8211; White taped fingers - Military style jackets &#8211; Gold pants &#8211; Side-striped Ankle-length trousers, and so on. Those images will be eternally linked to MJ. Eternally, Michal Jackson! Very clever, indeed!!

An artist whose name is known in the remotest parts of earth! An artist who is globally recognised by the initials, MJ &#8211; The King of Pop, Rock & Soul - The Gloved One, and of course, The King of Pop &#8211;or, (KOP). The ONLY artist I know of, who appealed to and has been imitated by ALL ages &#8211; people from 3 to 83 &#8211; people of ALL skin tones, religions, races, cultures, gay /straight, and on and on.

An artist who caused fainting and crying amongst MALES, as well as females! And, of course, an artist, who, even after the lurid, money-hungry vultures and media pounded down on him, continued to release albums that were STILL amongst the top selling worldwide; including having one for 30+ years that STILL remains the biggest selling in history. It had long got to the point where all he had to do was pop up from beneath the stage and stand still for almost 5 minutes, without uttering a word, and fans screamed, chanted his name and screamed even louder when he merely turned his head in the opposite direction.

An artist whose name and initials became a household name worldwide. It&#8217;s ALL there, ALL recorded into world history and set into stone&#8230; and on and on. Well, Phew! Many wouldn&#8217;t be too surprised if that particular artist WAS actually the biggest selling artist in history. Now, THAT kind of artistic legacy would be more convincing concerning sales claims!! As an all-round entertaining artist, he was the biggest phenomenon in history on a *GLOBAL* scale&#8230;And, there isn&#8217;t ANY-thing that ANY media-head, journalist /blogger can write, do or say that will change this fact! Nothing!!

Posted 1/6/2013, 12:56:39am by Whatever2012

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blo...l-a-hundred-million-copies.html#ixzz2HREMiriG

yep. this is good. there is no denying this evidence, if one is objective. and if i saw all these wonderful points yall made, ahead of time i could have found a way to combine them in one post. but that's the price of a lot of posts appearing at once at lightning speed.

 

[144000]

I don't believe the 100 million mark. Everyone was talking about 50-60 and all of a sudden, in something like 2006, an association claimed 100 million. That was to make Michael show up there to receive an award, what he did, and create some publicy for them. The excuse for the enormous jump of sales was that they had added the singles, so was not 100 million albums, but records. The fact is, in 1989, Billie Jean and Beat It singles had sold 1 million each... nobody buyed them after that.
The only reliable source are the ones not making money with the information.

why would they want him to make an appearance to receive an award for publicity if he didn't succeed at this feat?

 

[144000]

Why doubting the 100+ million copies sold? I bet millions of us have bought more than one Thriller album to keep its record and Michael has more new fans who probably are/will be intereted to buy Thriller. That's waht I call racism!

yep. it's like saying no one landed on the moon, because i didn't see it for myself

 

[felipemj]

why would they want him to make an appearance to receive an award for publicity if he didn't succeed at this feat?

when I said publicity I was thinking about theirs

 

[144000]

when I said publicity I was thinking about theirs

i know. you don't get publicity off of a non accomplished personality. Michael has to appear as if he achieved what is said he achieved in order for these people to think they can be successful with such publicity. Apparently, they knew the world was watching, and knew they all bought MJ's music, so they knew the world would believe what publicity, these people were trying to sell to the public. All these publicity stunts worked at the times, because at those times, the public believed it. That means those members of the public bought MJ's music. There are at least a billion people in the world. We've had thirty nine years time (and counting) for build up, and Michael's entire career was and still is successful. The math adds up for me.

 

[Electro]

If it was possible to count all the blackmarket bootleg Cassettes and CDs that where sold in Asia, Afrika, India, Eastern Europe etc ..i'm sure numbers of MJs solo albums and the number of all MJ records would rise very much.

For the big number its also a mistake to look only at the few official solo albums and Best Ofs.
There were so many more Michael Jackson music releases (remix compilations, box sets, tons of collectors stuff etc), i'm pretty sure they didn't look at ALL of that... cause its probably not possible.

 

[Petrarose]

That post from the comment box ^^ is a gem.

People also forget the West Indies & Latin America. These people buy music too, and sometimes items are shipped first to one country and from there delivered to neighboring islands. I guess smaller markets do not count, but I am sure Michael will take sales from any locale. Simple focusing on American sales and downplaying the sales in Asia & Europe shows a lack of knowledge, but then reporters are not experts on the topics they tend to write about as we can see with this NYorker writer.

 

[analogue]

I gotta say that seeing MJ's name three times in the top 25 biggest selling albums of all time is great. Not even The Beatles have that

 

[marebear]

I do respect what the Beatles and Elvis did and accomplished. I just feel that Michael achieved that status and more. It's so hard for some people to even put him in the same league as Elvis and the Beatles. There are some people who won't look at things objectively and use Michael's personal life and appearance against him to downplay his achievements. Elvis and the Beatles had their issues and problems too but that never gets in the way of what they achieved. It should be the same for Michael. They don't have to like Michael or even the music but at least acknowledge his contributions and achievements. What's next? Are they going to question how many sold out concerts he had or how many people watched him perform?

 

[MjsLovelyOne88]

That post from the comment box ^^ is a gem.

People also forget the West Indies & Latin America. These people buy music too

^^ Yes, thank you for that..I can't help but to feel left out sometimes (most of the times) as a Mexican fan, everyone considers Europe, Asia and America hardly ever look into what's going on in Latin America, I think we matter as much as any other market and I'm sure Michael acknowledged that, we've been supporting Mike and his legacy for decades too and will continue to do so, hopefully someday we'll be given the proper respect.

 

[felipemj]

i know. you don't get publicity off of a non accomplished personality. Michael has to appear as if he achieved what is said he achieved in order for these people to think they can be successful with such publicity. Apparently, they knew the world was watching, and knew they all bought MJ's music, so they knew the world would believe what publicity, these people were trying to sell to the public. All these publicity stunts worked at the times, because at those times, the public believed it. That means those members of the public bought MJ's music. There are at least a billion people in the world. We've had thirty nine years time (and counting) for build up, and Michael's entire career was and still is successful. The math adds up for me.

the public having believed don't make it truth

 

[Bonnie Blue]

^^ Yes, thank you for that..I can't help but to feel left out sometimes (most of the times) as a Mexican fan, everyone considers Europe, Asia and America hardly ever look into what's going on in Latin America, I think we matter as much as any other market and I'm sure Michael acknowledged that, we've been supporting Mike and his legacy for decades too and will continue to do so, hopefully someday we'll be given the proper respect.

Yes, mj did acknowledge that, he was pretty innovative in where he toured during the 90s, he was a pioneer in that regard. He liked breaking out of the box and understood unlike some americans like wyman that the centre of global gravity was shifting slowly to new markets.

 

[jamba]

I don't believe the 100 million mark. Everyone was talking about 50-60 and all of a sudden, in something like 2006, an association claimed 100 million. That was to make Michael show up there to receive an award, what he did, and create some publicy for them. The excuse for the enormous jump of sales was that they had added the singles, so was not 100 million albums, but records. The fact is, in 1989, Billie Jean and Beat It singles had sold 1 million each... nobody buyed them after that.
The only reliable source are the ones not making money with the information.

The award was the World Music Award 2006 Diamond Award given to Michael for selling 104 million copies of Thriller. The association that gave the award was the Guinness Book of Records. Here is the Wikipedia entry:

The 2006 (18th annual) World Music Awards were held in London, England and hosted by actress and vocalist Lindsay Lohan on 15 November 2006.[1] Performances included a Thriller recreation by Chris Brown and a children's chorus rendition of "We Are the World" with Michael Jackson. This was Jackson's final live performance (other than Michael Jackson's This Is It). [2] Other performers included Andrea Bocelli, Beyoncé, Bob Sinclar, Dima Bilan, Elissa, Enya, Faithless, Katie Melua, Nelly Furtado, Rihanna, Tokio Hotel, and Suleman Mirza.
Presenters included Pamela Anderson, Natalie Imbruglia, Donatella Versace, Sugababes, Nicole Richie, Denise Richards and Brian McFadden.[2]
The World Music Awards ceremony was televised in 160 countries including the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, Japan, Southeast Asia, China, Africa and the Middle East. In the United Kingdom it was broadcast on Channel 4 on 23 November 2006.[2] In the U.S., ABC is the traditional home of the World Music Awards, but in recent years they have moved to MyNetworkTV[citation needed], which rebroadcast the 2006 show on 1 July 2009, due to that show's tributes to the recently deceased Michael Jackson.[3]
[edit]Diamond Award

The Diamond Award honors those recording-artists who have sold over 100 million albums during their career. Past recipients include Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Rod Stewart and Bon Jovi. This year's recipient was Michael Jackson. His most popular album, "Thriller" has sold more than 104 million copies worldwide since its release in 1982 - making it the best-selling album of all time.[2]

 

[144000]

the public having believed don't make it truth

the public buys the music. it's easy to get caught up in the vacuum of living in the privacy of your own home and not knowing what your neighbor buys, and, therefore, thinking it's a small world, and there aren't enough people to have bought that many copies. it's almost as if you are saying your purchase doesn't count as a purchase, even though it's sitting in your house, because you don't realize that you are seeing yourself as insignificant, as a consumer who bought the purchase, and there are others who feel the same way. That doesn't stop the fact that those purchases were made.

you know what? you can tell how big the sales were by the people that hated him, moreso than by the people that flattered him. to this day, we have people taking down Michael videos after jumping on copyright bandwagons, because they've suddenly discovered the continuing viability and sales power of his music; magazines claiming that he worships the devil and society is under the 'spell' of his music, magazines trying to find creatures that hate his music..creatures such as pigeons, that are reported to 'fly away' if they hear his music'...as if desperate to find a living being that DOESN'T like his music? What more proof do you need? Have you ever heard anything like that, before? The magazine i'm referring to is the National Enquirer. I wish i had those magazines to show you, but this was back in the nineties.(by the way, since then, plenty more time for more sales, from then, to now). You can look in the controversy section of this site, and you'll still find personal accounts of people who think Michael worshipped the devil and his music has a 'spell' over society. The blessing in disguise behind this comment, is that people who hate him, can't resist his music. That's the bottom line. Add the haters to the lovers, and you have a billion... whether the haters wanted to buy the music or not. The bottom line is..the purchases are recorded. Or..they did happen, and some hateful people refused to record the purchases. But, if it takes someone saying 'a spell' to admit they bought the music...so be it.
And, lastly, and most soberingly, the biggest proof is also from the haters: frivolous lawsuits. before and after the catalogue purchase. lots of people claiming to have written his songs, and taking him to court over it. most in history. and finally, people feeling that they need to sabotage him, take him off the radio, try over and over to find ways to keep him from selling records..and..then..when all that didn't work..seek to kill him. Why would these evil people do these things, if they didn't know he was continuously viable..continuously selling, for, in their view..too many years? That, of course, doesn't justify them being evil and doing the evil things they did, but they did them, because he never stopped selling records. More than anyone in history. a billion, plus. and he's still selling. I remember the article in a legitimate magazine, named Entertainment Weekly, saying 'Can you believe this guy?' referring to Michael's staying power. Again, this was back in the nineties. Since then, his music hasn't stopped selling. This is a lonngggg amount of time to pass, and plentyyy of time to accumulate mind boggling amounts of sales. And, if it boggles the mind..it's expected that some may find it hard to believe. But are we going to deny these hateful things happened to him because of his kaching power?
After all this, and proofs posted in this thread from people all over this planet, representing places that other artists never touched, the way Michael touched them, it comes down to simply...either a person wants to say he sold a billion...or..they don't.

He did.

 

[Petrarose]

Yes, mj did acknowledge that, he was pretty innovative in where he toured during the 90s, he was a pioneer in that regard. He liked breaking out of the box and understood unlike some americans like wyman that the centre of global gravity was shifting slowly to new markets.

Yes, and let's not forget that even before the 90s Michael visited Latin America, The West Indies, Africa & Europe as part of the Jacksons 5. He already had a big fan base worldwide before he went solo. Therefore, he already moved the universe to himself (ha), if we use this guy's term. Way back when Michael was global, because when you heard that little, emotive & powerful voice singing, you knew it was Michael Jackson. So this idea about how only Elvis was able to move the universe to himself is out of step with reality. Maybe post 90s artists were centered in the "old world" and had just began to discover the "new world" markets, but Michael had already done that, as usual being ahead of his time.

Oh Oh and let's pick on his idea that Elvis created an audience. What artist have the children, teens, adults, & grandparents following his music & going to his concerts--that is an audience. How about the sane, insane, mentally challenged, physically challenged all gravitated to his music--that is an audience. How about a whole generation wearing his gloves, jackets, socks to school in the 80's leading principals to ban the wearing of the gloves--that is an audience in the same way Elvis had cute teens going crazy over him.

Wyman forgets that white kids liked these artists like Ray Charles, little Richie, & James Brown but it was not too acceptable for them to go crazy over these artists. In fact if you listen to Ray before he died he will tell you that some of the teens jumped on the stage and the status qua did not like it. Even way back when they could not put African-American photos or names on an album, the White kids use to sneak into the clubs where the African-Americans performed & their parents did not like it either. So can you imagine the excitement of these teens when a White guy was doing the moves & songs of those African American artists that they could not run after or chase? They went wild!! They could chase and love this guy openly in ways they could not do with a person of color. Here we have Elvis doing what the African American artists used to do & which the White parents had called immoral & causing their kids to be immoral.

I am not saying Elvis did not have talent, but there was a larger phenomena going on at that time which made the Elvis craze so enormous.

I suggest if anyone wants to really understand the talent of Elvis, they should buy all the black & white videos that show the early soul male performers who had to enter the back door at venues. Wyman needs to read more too.

 

[144000]

Yes, and let's not forget that even before the 90s Michael visited Latin America, The West Indies, Africa & Europe as part of the Jacksons 5. He already had a big fan base worldwide before he went solo. Therefore, he already moved the universe to himself (ha), if we use this guy's term. Way back when Michael was global, because when you heard that little, emotive & powerful voice singing, you knew it was Michael Jackson. So this idea about how only Elvis was able to move the universe to himself is out of step with reality. Maybe post 90s artists were centered in the "old world" and had just began to discover the "new world" markets, but Michael had already done that, as usual being ahead of his time.

Oh Oh and let's pick on his idea that Elvis created an audience. What artist have the children, teens, adults, & grandparents following his music & going to his concerts--that is an audience. How about the sane, insane, mentally challenged, physically challenged all gravitated to his music--that is an audience. How about a whole generation wearing his gloves, jackets, socks to school in the 80's leading principals to ban the wearing of the gloves--that is an audience in the same way Elvis had cute teens going crazy over him.

Wyman forgets that white kids liked these artists like Ray Charles, little Richie, & James Brown but it was not too acceptable for them to go crazy over these artists. In fact if you listen to Ray before he died he will tell you that some of the teens jumped on the stage and the status qua did not like it. Even way back when they could not put African-American photos or names on an album, the White kids use to sneak into the clubs where the African-Americans performed & their parents did not like it either. So can you imagine the excitement of these teens when a White guy was doing the moves & songs of those African American artists that they could not run after or chase? They went wild!! They could chase and love this guy openly in ways they could not do with a person of color. Here we have Elvis doing what the African American artists used to do & which the White parents had called immoral & causing their kids to be immoral.

I am not saying Elvis did not have talent, but there was a larger phenomena going on at that time which made the Elvis craze so enormous.

I suggest if anyone wants to really understand the talent of Elvis, they should buy all the black & white videos that show the early soul male performers who had to enter the back door at venues. Wyman needs to read more too.

i love the part where you speak of those who had mental 'disabilities'. Indeed..those who are considered 'outcasts' in society. Not in just that category..but many other categories that narrow minded society would consider to be outcasts. No other artist can claim this. Michael could relate to EV Ry BoDY.

i know this. We all do. That, alone, should be enough for us to realize the whole world bought his music. the word 'billion' in this case, is not far fetched.

i was coldly reminded of this, when, not too long, after Michael passed, Mariah Carey was doing a fan gathering for herself, and her people said 'this gathering is only for the cool people'...directly referring to not wanting to attract the type of people that Michael was able to attract. Not that that did anything spectacular for Mariah's sales, but the point was sobering, and well taken. Michael attracted EVERYBODY...whether they were considered cool, or not, by society. That equals numbers of sales that other artists didn't have...along with the far reaches of the world that other artists didn't reach.

Cripes! Members of HIS OWN FAMILY..millionaires, themselves, went after his money when he passed. What does THAT tell you? They knew he went past the billion mark. And they're his family. This, not long after Barbara Walters, of all people, admitted his estate was worth a BILLION, to his family member who didn't deny it. What more proof does anyone need?

 

[Petrarose]

144,000 and they buy his music too. I think the reason why people don't believe the million mark is that they cannot think out of the box about sales. In their minds, there is a general audience that an artist has. The audience lives in specific places, so they focus on this general audience who live in specific places. this group becomes the population that they look at when they talk about sales & numbers. The other people don't count. This is the same mistake they make about Michael's fans--they are supposed to be fanatics who simply go along with what he says. Our response to their lies or misrepresentations of Michael prove that we are not merely followers without intellect, but they still act as though we are. Hence, Wyman sees little value from the Asia, Europe, Latin America, West Indian sale numbers because they are not in that specific place that the Michael fans are supposed to live, even though facts show that there are huge fan groups in those areas. He cannot think outside the box, and this has little to do with not being able to get the numbers from Asia for example, because some of the markets he did not even mention!!!

Many people can say they love X,Y,Z music, but when it comes to this debate between Elvis & Michael, there is a tendency among the White middle-age Elvis fans to downgrade Michael because they see him as a competitor. But competitor of what? Michael never said he wanted to be the next Elvis. They never understand that there is room for both Michael & Elvis--it has to be one or the other, which is a shame because they cut themselves away from being awakened by the emotions of other sounds. Their loss....

 

[felipemj]

the public buys the music. it's easy to get caught up in the vacuum of living in the privacy of your own home and not knowing what your neighbor buys, and, therefore, thinking it's a small world, and there aren't enough people to have bought that many copies. it's almost as if you are saying your purchase doesn't count as a purchase, even though it's sitting in your house, because you don't realize that you are seeing yourself as insignificant, as a consumer who bought the purchase, and there are others who feel the same way. That doesn't stop the fact that those purchases were made.

you know what? you can tell how big the sales were by the people that hated him, moreso than by the people that flattered him. to this day, we have people taking down Michael videos after jumping on copyright bandwagons, because they've suddenly discovered the continuing viability and sales power of his music; magazines claiming that he worships the devil and society is under the 'spell' of his music, magazines trying to find creatures that hate his music..creatures such as pigeons, that are reported to 'fly away' if they hear his music'...as if desperate to find a living being that DOESN'T like his music? What more proof do you need? Have you ever heard anything like that, before? The magazine i'm referring to is the National Enquirer. I wish i had those magazines to show you, but this was back in the nineties.(by the way, since then, plenty more time for more sales, from then, to now). You can look in the controversy section of this site, and you'll still find personal accounts of people who think Michael worshipped the devil and his music has a 'spell' over society. The blessing in disguise behind this comment, is that people who hate him, can't resist his music. That's the bottom line. Add the haters to the lovers, and you have a billion... whether the haters wanted to buy the music or not. The bottom line is..the purchases are recorded. Or..they did happen, and some hateful people refused to record the purchases. But, if it takes someone saying 'a spell' to admit they bought the music...so be it.
And, lastly, and most soberingly, the biggest proof is also from the haters: frivolous lawsuits. before and after the catalogue purchase. lots of people claiming to have written his songs, and taking him to court over it. most in history. and finally, people feeling that they need to sabotage him, take him off the radio, try over and over to find ways to keep him from selling records..and..then..when all that didn't work..seek to kill him. Why would these evil people do these things, if they didn't know he was continuously viable..continuously selling, for, in their view..too many years? That, of course, doesn't justify them being evil and doing the evil things they did, but they did them, because he never stopped selling records. More than anyone in history. a billion, plus. and he's still selling. I remember the article in a legitimate magazine, named Entertainment Weekly, saying 'Can you believe this guy?' referring to Michael's staying power. Again, this was back in the nineties. Since then, his music hasn't stopped selling. This is a lonngggg amount of time to pass, and plentyyy of time to accumulate mind boggling amounts of sales. And, if it boggles the mind..it's expected that some may find it hard to believe. But are we going to deny these hateful things happened to him because of his kaching power?
After all this, and proofs posted in this thread from people all over this planet, representing places that other artists never touched, the way Michael touched them, it comes down to simply...either a person wants to say he sold a billion...or..they don't.

He did.

can you please explain me how these happenings would be stopped had him sold "only" 500 million?

 

[144000]

can you please explain me how these happenings would be stopped had him sold "only" 500 million?

i didn't attack you. and the haters i was referring to, are people that called him 'devil worshipper' and such. and what difference would it make to you, if numbers were checked? They were, and were mentioned, throughout this thread. There are all kinds of numbers, including numbers represented by the kinds of people you may not be willing to acknowledge as consumers, in places you may not be willing to acknowledge as a Michael market,(but those people love Michael, too).(some of those people are represented on this board, and those people are on this board, if you are willing to look and find them.)
It's just a matter of what you are willing or not willing to say. And, these 'things' i mentioned don't happen to a person that is not a threat to those who didn't want Michael to achieve what he achieved. It's clear, though, that you just don't want to say one billion. You're questioning how things would be if the number was less. Why..unless you just don't want to say the word 'billion'?

By the way, when you quoted my post, you left out the part i mentioned about Michael's family.

 

[felipemj]

what difference would it make to you, if numbers were checked? There are all kinds of numbers. It's just a matter of what you are willing or not willing to say.

I don't care about the numbers. I care about truth or lie

And, these 'things' i mentioned don't happen to a person that is not a threat to those who didn't want Michael to achieve what he achieved

a succesfull musician doesn't have any kind of threat to offer to anybody. People created stories to make MJ life look more intersting than it was so readers would buy them.

It's clear, though, that you just don't want to say one billion. You're questioning how things would be if the number was less. Why..unless you just don't want to say the word 'billion'?

No, that question was made to prove your point didn't have any logic. An argument is won when you nullify the points, not when you spend time judging people intentions. Truth said by a bad intentioned thief keeps being a truth, as stupidity said by a genius keeps being stupidity. I'm not even in the 1 billion discussion... I'm here because the point that Thriller sold 40 million singles is absurd, and that makes the 100 million mark a lie.

By the way, when you quoted my post, you left out the part i mentioned about Michael's family.

this is in another post. By the way, reading it now: by your logic, had Michael died in the 90's, they wouldn't do it because he didn't have sold 1 billion yet...