DO NOT, let the charges be raised!

[Autumn II]

Larry, Autumn is not forcing you to change your mind. She is providing you with factual information as to why the petition is viable, in the same way that you think you are providing factual information to fans to influence them to keep the current charges. What i would like you to do, if possible, is to present the new testimony to your last year professor and see what he thinks. His response will in no way change my mind about increasing the charges, but it would be interesting to see if his former analysis is still relevant. Ask him about stacking charges also.

Thank you. This is reasonable, and fair.

FYI, the petition is now at [SIZE=+6]2953 [/SIZE]

 

[larry141094]

Sure, the charges can be changed, and stacked.

The figures are only those given on the petition, which is done on an entirely independent site. Like it or not, they will probably top three THOUSAND, tonight, and ongoing.

Mez has my respect, but his opinions were given BEFORE this devastating testimony.

The jury should be given a CHOICE, which is not possible with the current charges. They could change Murder 2 to Involuntary Manslaughter, but not in the reverse, i.e. cannot UP the charges if those charges have not been made. So that is what we are asking for.

The FACTS are, that Murray did so many things in disregard of Michael's life, according to testimony, that the I.M. charges are already a joke. There is no possible justification for him being on the PHONE, in the ambulance taking Michael to the hospital! NO ONE could possibly think this was ok for a medical professional. (and no, he was not talking to hospital professionals, but to his girlfriend!)

There is a new press release, everyone. Check the "press release" thread to read it. And thanks, to those who have signed!

Ok people are ignoring the point im trying to make, You Can Not Prove This In Court! :timer: so there, blargh! anyway it doesn't work the way we want it to work in court, don't think it works like a debate because it really doesn't.

One last thing, what testimony has been given that we didn't already know last year? The statements given in court the past few days we all pretty much knew, apart from KO statement about June 19th and the subsequent meeting.
Don't get all arrogant because you have used fans anger and naiveness to sign a petition, it's REALLY getting to me now.

 

[Petrarose]

Ok this is my last post here, because people are ignoring the point im trying to make, You Can Not Prove This In Court! :timer: so there, blargh! anyway it doesn't work the way we want it to work in court, don't think it works like a debate because it really doesn't.

One last thing, what testimony has been given that we didn't already know last year? The statements given in court the past few days we all pretty much knew, apart from KO statement about June 19th and the subsequent meeting.
Don't get all arrogant because you have used fans anger and naiveness to sign a petition, it's REALLY getting to me now.

Larry, this is not a fight with Autumn. We all want what is best for Michael. If you understand the legal points you are making, then, disclose it to fans in a clear and factual manner, and there will be no need for the situation to "get to you." Understand that some will agree with you and others will not. You are guided by information that you feel is true and valid. Others have the same feelings about their facts.

There will always be fans/people who will go the extra mile to make a difference in the world, despite the hindrance of others. Sometimes the activists succeed; sometimes they do not, but their efforts always make an impact. You chose to do nothing. That is OK. Others choose to do something based on what they hold to be legally true, and that is OK too. Don't get stressed out. Peace.

 

[larry141094]

Larry, this is not a fight with Autumn. We all want what is best for Michael. If you understand the legal points you are making, then, disclose it to fans in a clear and factual manner, and there will be no need for the situation to "get to you." Understand that some will agree with you and others will not. You are guided by information that you feel is true and valid. Others have the same feelings about their facts.

There will always be fans/people who will go the extra mile to make a difference in the world, despite the hindrance of others. Sometimes the activists succeed; sometimes they do not, but their efforts always make an impact. You chose to do nothing. That is OK. Others choose to do something based on what they hold to be legally true, and that is OK too. Don't get stressed out. Peace.

*breathes* i guess your right, i hate when people ignore things, little details i point out they pass off, we're humans, we have the rare ability to use logic and reason, if we let ourselves fall into our emotions it makes us animals... i think i went all big cat on autumn then, sorry :/, but only time will tell :fortuneteller:

 

[Petrarose]

*breathes* i guess your right, i hate when people ignore things, little details i point out they pass off, we're humans, we have the rare ability to use logic and reason, if we let ourselves fall into our emotions it makes us animals... i think i went all big cat on autumn then, sorry :/, but only time will tell :fortuneteller:

OHHHHH, what a BIG person you are Larry. You are not being ignored, though. It is just another angle that is being presented.

 

[larry141094]

OHHHHH, what a BIG person you are Larry. You are not being ignored, though. It is just another angle that is being presented.

Was that sarcasm? Cause i don't get what your implying

 

[pg13]

Larry, this is not a fight with Autumn. We all want what is best for Michael. If you understand the legal points you are making, then, disclose it to fans in a clear and factual manner, and there will be no need for the situation to "get to you." Understand that some will agree with you and others will not. You are guided by information that you feel is true and valid. Others have the same feelings about their facts.

There will always be fans/people who will go the extra mile to make a difference in the world, despite the hindrance of others. Sometimes the activists succeed; sometimes they do not, but their efforts always make an impact. You chose to do nothing. That is OK. Others choose to do something based on what they hold to be legally true, and that is OK too. Don't get stressed out. Peace.

Well I normally dont get in to controversy cause I dont like it in general but I think thi is not fair for Larry IMHO. I dont think he is doing nothing, contrary he is giving us important information and I personally thins HE IS RIGHT! IN court the only thing that matters is WHAT YOU CAN REALLY PROVE! That is it, no fellings, no angry fans, no poor P,P & B, NO NOTHING! IS ALL ABOUT PROVES!!!

So lest say we get 10000000 signatures and under popular pressure the charges are changes and then because there are not REAL PROVE for 2º murder he walks :mello: THEN WHAT???:mello:

 

[larry141094]

Well I normally dont get in to controversy cause I dont like it in general but I think thi is not fair for Larry IMHO. I dont think he is doing nothing, contrary he is giving us important information and I personally thins HE IS RIGHT! IN court the only thing that matters is WHAT YOU CAN REALLY PROVE! That is it, no fellings, no angry fans, no poor P,P & B, NO NOTHING! IS ALL ABOUT PROVES!!!

So lest say we get 10000000 signatures and under popular pressure the charges are changes and then because there are not REAL PROVE for 2º murder he walks :mello: THEN WHAT???:mello:

:agree: thankyou, at least someone understands my strange language

 

[Mechi]

since when are testimonies no prove anymore?

I am believing when several ppl who have no history as liars do witness they have seen something and tell how it happened, that it counts like evidence cuz it simply proves it happened?

I mean the petition didn't ask for murder 1... there's well thinking ppl behind it who got information about law and possibilities of professionals... we shouldn't make it sound like a few fans are running amok or something.

 

[Autumn II]

By now, the points have been made by those who want to sign/have signed the petition, and by those who do not want to sign/will not sign. And that is where we are now, and not much more to say? That's ok, this is a discussion board. People will make up their own, individual, minds and sign or not sign.

Except, there are still a couple of things that STILL seem not to be understood, given the posts I've read?

First is; that a charge of Murder 2 does not take Involuntary Manslaughter necessarily off the table. It's not uncommon for juries to be given a CHOICE. If they think the testimony is not sufficient for Murder 2, there is a very real possibility that they can convict on the lesser charge. Instructions can be given to a jury to explain that choice.

BUT, if Murder 2 is never on the table, then the jury cannot convict on that. In other words, they can lower the charge, but not raise it.

The second point I haven't seen addressed is the VERY real chance that if Murray is convicted of Involuntary Manslaughter, that he will WALK. I.e., could see NO jail time at all! For those of us who signed the petition, that is a horrific possibility in terms of justice for Michael!

So, given all of this, for some of us, going for Murder 2 is worth the risk. And for some, it isn't. And that's where we are now. To me, the chance of Murray having no punishment at all, except for probation, is completely unacceptable.

The DA will make his own choice, for his own reasons. What is DIFFERENT now from before the prelim is that we've heard the actual testimony from some key people (but not all, of course). It's one thing to leak to tabloids, and quite another to have to testify under oath. Plus there are things we did NOT know before the prelim. I, for one, didn't know that Murray called his girlfriend while in the ambulance and when he should have been tending to Michael! That is wholly outrageous, and a disregard for human life. . .MICHAEL'S life!

I think that's it, then. Most people on here have probably sorted this out for themselves, and will make their own choices. Which is as it should be.

Peace,

Autumn

 

[januska]

Thank you very much to all of you who did research and shared your findings and brought different points of view into daylight :flowers:

I was very skeptical about raising the charges, but now my eyes are definitely opened to this fact

First is; that a charge of Murder 2 does not take Involuntary Manslaughter necessarily off the table. It's not uncommon for juries to be given a CHOICE. If they think the testimony is not sufficient for Murder 2, there is a very real possibility that they can convict on the lesser charge. Instructions can be given to a jury to explain that choice.

BUT, if Murder 2 is never on the table, then the jury cannot convict on that. In other words, they can lower the charge, but not raise it.

I really think we should at least try to get him behind bars. :mello:

 

[Autumn II]

This is a time to pull together, not divide. Those whose consciences do not permit signing the petition, certainly must do what they think is best.

The petition has now passed the FOUR THOUSAND mark. This is an absolutely incredible achievement! The petition will most likely only run through the weekend, so for those who choose to, please continue to get out the word and provide the petition URL as widely as possible.

 

[SIDEWALK]

This is a time to pull together, not divide. Those whose consciences do not permit signing the petition, certainly must do what they think is best.

The petition has now passed the FOUR THOUSAND mark. This is an absolutely incredible achievement! The petition will most likely only run through the weekend, so for those who choose to, please continue to get out the word and provide the petition URL as widely as possible.

whats a petition going to do?

 

[Autumn II]

whats a petition going to do?

Petitions are commonly used for (non-violent) social action. The purpose is to let the DA know that a large number of people think that Involuntary Manslaughter is not a sufficient charge, given the testimony that's now come out. A District Attorney is an elected official, and public opinion MATTERS.

And thanks for asking!

FYI, the petition will officially close on Monday, at 6 a.m. Eastern Standard Time, U.S. It will then be delivered to the District Attorney and the others named on the petition. It will be delivered in PDF format, and is an official petition. We are now at almost 5,000 signatures.

[SIZE=+6]4777 Total Signatures[/SIZE]

 

[Petrarose]

Was that sarcasm? Cause i don't get what your implying

No not at all. I was applauding you for your comment that my response quoted. Look back at the quote. There is no place for sarcasm here. I respect you. This is a serious matter.

 

[xMichellex]

I agree completely with the OP. Sometimes these campaigns, whilst they have the best intentions, do more harm than good. I do think Dr.Murray needs to pay the price but only for what he did. Do I think he murdered Michael? No I do not. Do I think he accidently caused his death? Probably, in which case he should be convicted for this, but only for this not for more, and anyway if the charges are raised there is every possibility that Dr.Murray will not even pay for what he did do, which I believe was an accident, not intended but a bad accident that shouldn't have happened all the same. I have been chatting to another fan who I will not name because I know she is frightened her views will be pounced on and taken the wrong way but something she said has stuck in my mind, I'll paste part of the conversation here "at the end of the day if it was an accident then yeah he should receive the appropriate sentence in terms of criminal justice, but I think what a lot of people forget is that he probably IS serving his sentence right now; the eternal sentence of guilt (provided of course that he does feel guilty, I kind of assume he does) that he will never get rid of and have to carry for the rest of his life, I think that's a pretty big punishment, whether he lives with his guilt behind bars is irrelevent, he'll live with it, that's his life sentence right there" - I agree with this. Sometimes it is better to look at the bigger picture. Will raising the charges get him a life sentence? Highly unlikely. Will raising the charges possibly interfere with criminal justice and stop him getting what he does deserve? Highly likely. Can any court in the land serve a sentence that everyone will be happy with? No. Can God/Human Nature serve him the life sentence of guilt that no living being can dish out? Yes, and rest assured that Dr. Murray will never live a normal life again. So is there any need for a witch hunt? Absolutely not!

 

[Autumn II]

Just FYI? If Murray is charged with Murder 2, it's entirely possible for a jury to LOWER the charges to Involuntary Manslaughter and still convict on that. But, a jury can't RAISE charges more than what have already been made.

With Involuntary Manslaughter, only, there is a chance that Murray will get only probation, and never spend a day in jail. That is not a risk a lot of us are willing to take.

I do feel it's better to make informed choices, but follow your conscience, of course.

 

[larry141094]

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

 

[januska]

^
Let me disagree! No doubt, he had gone through a lot and all that affected him. But he had three beautiful children and a life to live! I don't know about his state of mind, but even then it's two completely different things to be dead inside and physically dead, right?

And anyway what does this have to do with your original post? Nothing?

 

[bowen9999]

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

Wow.... that's some assumption to make! I took you seriously in your first few posts in this thread but you've just shot yourself in the foot with this post. You have no right to say Michael was already dead inside. He lived for his children... there is no way he wouldn't have wanted to be here to guide them and watch them grow up.

Re: this:

"at the end of the day if it was an accident then yeah he should receive the appropriate sentence in terms of criminal justice, but I think what a lot of people forget is that he probably IS serving his sentence right now; the eternal sentence of guilt (provided of course that he does feel guilty, I kind of assume he does) that he will never get rid of and have to carry for the rest of his life, I think that's a pretty big punishment, whether he lives with his guilt behind bars is irrelevent, he'll live with it, that's his life sentence right there"

I could live with this if Murray had shown any remorse whatsoever but he hasn't. He has shown the type of person he is - selfish. He was so busy covering his own ass that he couldn't perform proper CPR on his patient?! WTF?! He has never apologised for any of his actions (to the family or publically) and has yet to be punished for them.

 

[JMie]

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

I read with great attention what you had to say before, because I want to understand the legal side of the case from every angle and I consider all legal input very valuable, but this your comment just leaves me speechless. How can you even think that? Michael was a VERY STRONG person. Yes, a lot of people threw dirt in him, and he had to endure a lot. But after everything he had to deal with, he was still standing, he was still dreaming, he still had plans for the future, and what's more important he had children who helped him to keep doing, so I don't understand how anyone can say that he was dead inside. And what I don't understand even more is how that can be an excuse for what Murray did.

 

[larry141094]

uhh im guessing people took that the wrong way.
Whatever, i think this discussion has gotten to its end, thankyou for all your input

 

[xthunderx2]

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

wow you really are unbelievable....Michael had a family and was full of life...he wasn't ready to leave that yet. This is my first comment is this thread...I think it will be my last. Now I understand your mental state as to why you don't want the charges raised....if you could you would be sitting next to Murray as his lawyer!!

 

[StaceyMJ]

Mez gave this interview almost a year ago. With the revelations made over the last few days in the prelim, the evidence against Murray has been stacking up by the second. I think if Mez was re-interviewed his opinions may have changed significantly...

I agree with you, and was going to say exactly the same thing.

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

Umm ok?

Outrageous.

 

[Laura.L.]

I agree completely with the OP. Sometimes these campaigns, whilst they have the best intentions, do more harm than good. I do think Dr.Murray needs to pay the price but only for what he did. Do I think he murdered Michael? No I do not. Do I think he accidently caused his death? Probably, in which case he should be convicted for this, but only for this not for more, and anyway if the charges are raised there is every possibility that Dr.Murray will not even pay for what he did do, which I believe was an accident, not intended but a bad accident that shouldn't have happened all the same. I have been chatting to another fan who I will not name because I know she is frightened her views will be pounced on and taken the wrong way but something she said has stuck in my mind, I'll paste part of the conversation here "at the end of the day if it was an accident then yeah he should receive the appropriate sentence in terms of criminal justice, but I think what a lot of people forget is that he probably IS serving his sentence right now; the eternal sentence of guilt (provided of course that he does feel guilty, I kind of assume he does) that he will never get rid of and have to carry for the rest of his life, I think that's a pretty big punishment, whether he lives with his guilt behind bars is irrelevent, he'll live with it, that's his life sentence right there" - I agree with this. Sometimes it is better to look at the bigger picture. Will raising the charges get him a life sentence? Highly unlikely. Will raising the charges possibly interfere with criminal justice and stop him getting what he does deserve? Highly likely. Can any court in the land serve a sentence that everyone will be happy with? No. Can God/Human Nature serve him the life sentence of guilt that no living being can dish out? Yes, and rest assured that Dr. Murray will never live a normal life again. So is there any need for a witch hunt? Absolutely not!

I have to disagree with this. How does the feeling of guilt excuse a killing of another human being, whether intentional or accidential?? And how can you even know whether someone feels guilty or not? You can't.
If we were to assume that all criminals felt guilty for their wrongdoings, and if that burden of guilt was a sufficient punishment for their crimes, there would be no need for a legal system and/or prisons.

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

:mello:
Michael was making a lot of plans for his future, that does not indicate he was dead inside. Quite the contrary. To me it seems like he was finally back on his feet and ready to take over the world again. I'm sure he had gone through hell -and we all know why, no need to explain that- but to say he was dead inside is stretching it waaay to far.

 

[Petrarose]

I think we can all fairly say that no matter which path is taken (IM or M2) there are going to be risks, but personally i think Murray should not be charged with murder, after all Michael was already dead inside, and we all know who REALLY murdered Michael Jackson

Larry, if you want me and others to look at your original post seriously, then you have to maintain points to back up your premise with legal facts. This above comment makes me realize that you are not sticking to facts, and now I wonder if you understood what the professor said clearly. No offense here.

Read the evidence of the last few days, the actions of Murray in the house, in the ambulance, and at the hospital. Read what Michael had in his system from the autopsy report. Read what Murray told the police that he gave Michael and the timeline, although Murray's attorney later said Murray did not give this timeline. You can believe attorney or police on this. Read on the effects of the drugs Murray gave Michael and the condition that Michael was in due to the effects of the drugs. Read the points that Autumn share with an open mind. What she says does not contradict your legal opinion, but rather shows you another legal way we can make Murray accountable by making sure that he can be tried for a higher charge while giving the jury the option for a lower charge. I do not think you are getting that point. The Jury has the option to give a higher or lower charge based on the evidence so that Murray does not walk. She has said this so many times, and I hope you understand it.

For, those who do not want the charges to be raised that is OK, but to belittle the importance of petitions and civil actions is inappropriate. I saw someone did that above. Think of what helped uncover Michael's name at the school and what helped the postponement of the Discovery show. When these campaigns were in action, I saw many fans writing "don't do it because nothing will come of it." Many did not listen and took part in these campaigns wholeheartedly, and we won.

Larry, if you know who really killed Michael, please share that information with us. We want the right person tried for the crime.

 

[LoveMJackson]

after all Michael was already dead inside

What an awful thing to say! I strongly disagree.
I do not believe that Michael was ready to leave the world yet. He had many plans for the future. He had 3 beautiful children that were all his life and made him happy and gave him a reason to live. He wanted to make a huge comeback just that they would see how great their father was..the greatest. so no, I do not buy this for a second.

 

[olivertom]

I agreed with what Larry was saying, up until his last post.

In my opinion the prosecution should be focusing 100% on getting the Involuntary Manslaughter conviction. It's the right charge for the crime.

If people have a problem with the small amount of time he will serve, thats a justice system problem- take it up with the US government or petition to get jail terms for IM upped.

You can't just decide to up charges on an individual based on some wikipedia american law research and the fact that you feel that he won't serve enough time (which is what I think many people are feeling). How it plays out in court will be very different to what people think, the prosecution have to get it totally right in every way to get the jury on side.

In fact, for me a conviction of Involuntary Manslaughter will be justice enough. If it stops just one doctor in the future taking advantage on someone who was possibly dependent on these drugs rather than helping them, it will be worth it.

It will send a message and set a precedent that doctors who give out drugs like candy will be tried and convicted. If Michael did have problems with these drugs, it was Murray's job to sort it out and help him, not enable him.

Also I want to add that people/the media paint this stereotypical picture of someone who has drug dependency issues, and to assume someone is dead inside based on this is wholly presumptuous, and in this case most definitely wrong.

 

[larry141094]

wow you really are unbelievable....Michael had a family and was full of life...he wasn't ready to leave that yet. This is my first comment is this thread...I think it will be my last. Now I understand your mental state as to why you don't want the charges raised....if you could you would be sitting next to Murray as his lawyer!!

Firstly i would like to say i am very hurt by that statement, i do have a disability which is of a mental cause, and secondly read the rules of the forum, respect other peoples opinion.

Im not sure you understand my situation, nor Michael's so don't go around saying things like you do.

 

[chanel05]

I agreed with what Larry was saying, up until his last post.

In my opinion the prosecution should be focusing 100% on getting the Involuntary Manslaughter conviction. It's the right charge for the crime.

If people have a problem with the small amount of time he will serve, thats a justice system problem- take it up with the US government or petition to get jail terms for IM upped.

You can't just decide to up charges on an individual based on some wikipedia american law research and the fact that you feel that he won't serve enough time (which is what I think many people are feeling). How it plays out in court will be very different to what people think, the prosecution have to get it totally right in every way to get the jury on side.

In fact, for me a conviction of Involuntary Manslaughter will be justice enough. If it stops just one doctor in the future taking advantage on someone who was possibly dependent on these drugs rather than helping them, it will be worth it.

It will send a message and set a precedent that doctors who give out drugs like candy will be tried and convicted. If Michael did have problems with these drugs, it was Murray's job to sort it out and help him, not enable him.

Also I want to add that people/the media paint this stereotypical picture of someone who has drug dependency issues, and to assume someone is dead inside based on this is wholly presumptuous, and in this case most definitely wrong.

i agree with your statement... i think muarry should go away much longer than "up to 4 yrs" i think it should be a minimum of 15 years, but i know the us court system doesnt work like that.

Dont you guys really think that if the DA could charge muarry with a higher crime he would have???? i think so.... this is high profile case and he is doing what he has to do to make sure muarry is convicted. yea, it sucks that its not higher..... but most cases like this never come before a judge/jury. these kind of cases are usually dealth with by the medical board. so i think that is a step up.