Brief live vocals on Jam on the Dangerous Tour

[mj_frenzy]

The HIStory Tour is still a wonderful performance by standards of common people. The hate for the tour comes from people who weren’t there.

Thank you!

I don't know if truer words were ever spoken!

That is a faulty logic from all of three of you.

But even if we assume that this is a valid argument (that being physically in a concert makes you adore every aspect of it, or at least do not care about its negative aspects), then I could direct you to many reports from fans who attended the HIStory concerts but were left utterly disappointed by the amount of his lip-syncing.

Many of them were even regretful because they traveled a long way only to listen to his CDs being played on stage.

Michael was a great live singer, he had proven that years & decades earlier! When he leaned on playback in the later stage of his career, it was because of health issues & because what he did on stage was extremely exhausting as a man who was approaching his forties.

This is one of the hugest fallacies I have ever read on an on-line community!

Take a look at some other performers who dance & sing live at the same time & they are much older than a man in his late thirties.

I could mention, for example, James Brown (known for his health issues & also one of MJ’s idols) who did that even in his early seventies!

My point is that the excessive hate for the tour stems from the lip-synching.

I personally think comments on this forum and elsewhere regarding the HIStory Tour are incredibly rude, almost as if Michael was half-assed for the shows. If you had any knowledge or respect for Michael's craft and how he worked you would know that is far from the truth.

Not seeing everything concerning the HIStory Tour through rose-coloured spectacles does not equate to hate towards that tour.

 

[dam2040]

That is a faulty logic from all of three of you.

But even if we assume that this is a valid argument (that being physically in a concert makes you adore every aspect of it, or at least do not care about its negative aspects), then I could direct you to many reports from fans who attended the HIStory concerts but were left utterly disappointed by the amount of his lip-syncing.

Many of them were even regretful because they traveled a long way only to listen to his CDs being played on stage.



This is one of the hugest fallacies I have ever read on an on-line community!

Take a look at some other performers who dance & sing live at the same time & they are much older than a man in his late thirties.

I could mention, for example, James Brown (known for his health issues & also one of MJ’s idols) who did that even in his early seventies!



Not seeing everything concerning the HIStory Tour through rose-coloured spectacles does not equate to hate towards that tour.

Everyone who travelled for hours on the buses and coaches to Paris, Amsterdam etc etc through MJNI were in awe. I speak from personal experience not from blog articles. It was one of the most attended tours of all time, of course some are going to be negative. I’m sure there are people who didn’t enjoy the Bad or Dangerous tours.

It seems to me the recent fans who’s knowledge comes from YouTube videos disregard it as an actual experience. And it was a damn good one at that.

Your point about heath issues is ridiculous also. Elusive moonwalker was spot on. Health issues are all the same and effect everyone in the same way? Of course not. What a ridiculous notion.

There’s a huge difference between not liking the lip syncing and completely disregarding the tour completely.

 

[Virre]

There are radio hosts in my country who´s not the biggest fans of Michael. But they have been on all three shows he had. Bad, Dangerous and History. They speak high of all three of them, not a negative word. Same with people I´ve met at work and people I work with, they are non fans but went to concerts because it´s Michael Jackson, and they say the same thing, one of the best they ever been too.
They watch clips with me from History tour just to see him dance at times.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Your point about heath issues is ridiculous also. Elusive moonwalker was spot on. Health issues are all the same and effect everyone in the same way? Of course not. What a ridiculous notion.

So, his health issues during the HIStory Tour were so serious that prevented him from singing live but at the same time did not prevent him at all from dancing almost non-stop for one & a half hour on each date?

No matter how you slice it, choosing to lip-sync (during the biggest part of the HIStory Tour) understandably comes under fire by most of MJ’s fans.

Although the discussion about the HIStory Tour is interesting (judging from all the members' comments here), I shall discontinue derailing this thread out of respect for the original ‘Jam’ question.

 

[SmoothCriminal1995]

Thanks for pointing that out about the live part in Jam, I never noticed that before.

Shame this thread turned into another HIStory Tour thread

 

[Galactus123]

I find this to be honest nonsense. The Munich show has millions of views on YouTube. Many comments range from MJ was the greatest ever to “MJ at his peak”.

Die hard fans are accustomed to every nuance of MJs shows. Casuals aren’t. The HIStory Tour is still a wonderful performance by standards of common people. The hate for the tour comes from people who weren’t there.

I'm sure it isn't when they hear that he isn't singing live.

I don’t really know how to say it but I would honestly say most newer fans just analyse pro footage and leave it as such. These were events real people attended. Trust me, you did not care that Michael didn’t sing live. When he kicked that spaceship door open, you weren’t thinking “oh but he’s going to lip sync”. All the blood rushed to your face and your chest tightened. When I had tickets to This is It I wasn’t wondering what songs he would sing live, I was in a state of pure happpiness that I would see him again. You simply didn’t care.

There’s a great amateur video of Wembley 1997 similar to the one you mentioned. The place was rocking and it’s great to be able to watch it again from a fans perspective. They were all in tears of joy. It was a spectacle, and a truly great show. I cried when I watched the Wembley one and it was just a video. It was such an incredible look into what it was like. I hope one day we can have the technology to create VR experiences of being there based on footage like that so new fans can experience it themselves..

If you had tickets and were waiting for your show, you didn’t care that it was lip syncing. Man I miss those days!!

One reason could be that most people didn't know that he was lip-syncing. I'm sure most people wouldn't have been happy if they had knew that he was going to lip-sync 90% of the concert. Of course there are some fans that don't care about it but many do.

 

[ChrisC]

I went and experienced the HIStory tour live and in person and sorry dam2040 but I disagree with you completely.

Of course I cherish the experience and all that but the tour itself was really subpar.

I've had so many debates on this issue here I care not to get knee deep in another, but you can't swap out substance for style. And lip-synching wasn't invented in 1996, Michael went from lip-synching nothing in his shows in 1987 to almost everything on a gradual scale over the next 9 years. He did it out of necessity simply because he wasn't capable. It wasn't a choice he made knowing he could do either.

And the covering the mic thing was outrageously bad on MSG. He'd always found ways to disguise his lip-synching but that was just so OTT that night. Whatever night it was he performed under the influence could be largely to blame for that.

 

[dam2040]

I went and experienced the HIStory tour live and in person and sorry dam2040 but I disagree with you completely.

Of course I cherish the experience and all that but the tour itself was really subpar.

I've had so many debates on this issue here I care not to get knee deep in another, but you can't swap out substance for style. And lip-synching wasn't invented in 1996, Michael went from lip-synching nothing in his shows in 1987 to almost everything on a gradual scale over the next 9 years. He did it out of necessity simply because he wasn't capable. It wasn't a choice he made knowing he could do either.

And the covering the mic thing was outrageously bad on MSG. He'd always found ways to disguise his lip-synching but that was just so OTT that night. Whatever night it was he performed under the influence could be largely to blame for that.

MJs voice was destroyed by the time HIStory came around. The BWT is to thank for that. Moving + singing is a big difference to just standing there and singing. Elusive moonwalker has already mentioned MJs lung issues. I don't think MJ chose to do it because he couldn't be arsed anymore, he physically couldn't. I mean, listen to Dangerous in 2002. He sings live for a line or two and sounds absolutely exhausted. The real MSG vocals sound similar to the HWT too.

It's funny you mention the MSG thing because most of Billie Jean from the TV broadcast is from the 7th where he was 'under the influence'.

Can't believe the thread got so derailed. Sorry!! I've genuinely never noticed MJ sang live on Jam. What line is it? He definitely isn't live during the Oslo show.

 

[dam2040]

I'm sure it isn't when they hear that he isn't singing live.

So the press are wrong when they mention MJs Super Bowl being one of the best? He didn't sing live, so it sucks, right?

 

[ChrisC]

MJs voice was destroyed by the time HIStory came around. The BWT is to thank for that.

Could be a number of factors.

MJ needed to adapt to cope with the challenges he faced when it came to live singing. Sadly he went the wrong way, for me.

 

[Nite Line]

I can sort of understand MJ lip-syncing during the History tour. But did he have to lip sync every song during the 99 concerts or the 2002 performances at the Gala? It was so embarrassing watching him lip-sych to Off The Wall medley every time during the History tour.

I can't believe that people are defending the excessive lip-syncing by MJ in the 90s. That is what you call stan culture, when you blindly defend your favorites instead of criticizing them, where it's justified.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

I've genuinely never noticed MJ sang live on Jam. What line is it? He definitely isn't live during the Oslo show.

Dangerous tour live in Bucharest, official release, right before the dance break.

 

[dam2040]

I can sort of understand MJ lip-syncing during the History tour. But did he have to lip sync every song during the 99 concerts or the 2002 performances at the Gala? It was so embarrassing watching him lip-sych to Off The Wall medley every time during the History tour.

I can't believe that people are defending the excessive lip-syncing by MJ in the 90s. That is what you call stan culture, when you blindly defend your favorites instead of criticizing them, where it's justified.

Or, y'know, an acceptance of MJs lung condition and his health at the time. It's clear that post Bad, his voice took some damage and not even limited to live performances, either. I'm sure if he could, he would've sang live. I think it would've been nice if he re-recorded songs, especially the Off The Wall medley to sound live. Would've been a nice meet in the middle for the situation.

Doesn't make the tour 'terrible' or 'boring' as many fans have stated. 'Stan culture' or thinking in the reality of the situation.

Dangerous tour live in Bucharest, official release, right before the dance break.

Thought so. Wonder where this came from?

 

[Robbsaber01]

So the press are wrong when they mention MJs Super Bowl being one of the best? He didn't sing live, so it sucks, right?

The difference is that the Superbowl performance wasn't a full concert. I understand his voice was damaged after BAD tour. IMO its disappointing when even the backup singers are lipsyncing. History pales in comparison to past tours. I still enjoy it regardless.

As for Jam, was the original bucharest audio live or was it just dubbed in for the DVD?

 

[Snake2J]

That kind of helps MJ's case. His lip syncing at the time was so convincing that most people didn't realize. I think because he had so much to offer aside from live vocals in his starpower, dancing and overall spectacle, he could get away with it and his audience could still enjoy his performances.

Look at someone like Britney Spears as a live performer. People don't (or shouldn't) go to her concerts for her live vocals. Her appeal was dance and spectacle. I think it was in Australia where she had fans leave her show because she was lip syncing. I just feel like if you expect high quality live vocals for 2 hours along with complex dance choreography, you're kidding yourself.

As far as MJ goes, he set himself a precedent in the 80s and earlier as a live vocalist and dancer which he was simply unable to maintain in the 90s. So you need to realistically assess what would have been better. 2 hours of hoarse and scratchy vocals making most of his songs sound terrible, 2 hours of clean vocal playback with more focus on dancing or no tour at all? As the best case scenerio playback meant fans weren't going to miss out on either a good sounding show or seeing him altogether.

 

[Galactus123]

So the press are wrong when they mention MJs Super Bowl being one of the best? He didn't sing live, so it sucks, right?

I enjoy watching it but it isn't one of his best performances in my opinion. Maybe most of the press think that he sang live and it was a short performance so I wouldn't compare it to HIStory Tour.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Maybe most of the press think that he sang live and it was a short performance so I wouldn't compare it to HIStory Tour.

The press did know beforehand which songs MJ was about to perform & in what way (lip-synced, in that case) for the Super Bowl Halftime.

But, such events are a completely different story. Typically, the performer has to abide by certain, strict rules set by the producers/organizers of the show.

Lip-syncing in such events is one of those rules, regardless of the performer’s desire to lip-sync or not.

 

[ChrisC]

Or, y'know, an acceptance of MJs lung condition and his health at the time. It's clear that post Bad, his voice took some damage and not even limited to live performances, either. I'm sure if he could, he would've sang live. I think it would've been nice if he re-recorded songs, especially the Off The Wall medley to sound live. Would've been a nice meet in the middle for the situation.

Doesn't make the tour 'terrible' or 'boring' as many fans have stated. 'Stan culture' or thinking in the reality of the situation.

Absolutely not. I'd have hated a re-recording of the songs. That kind of deception is really insulting to me. Dolly Parton does it. Shania Twain does it. Janet Jackson does it. And I'm sure there are others. Actually I find it disgusting. Unless of course, you are open and honest about that to the audience. I believe Dolly Parton tells audiences at her shows this? Clearly Michael, latterly, began pitch shifting his old songs to make it more believable - that's more than enough.

Unfortunately for many people, including artists themselves, lip-synching a live show is inexcusable. So those people would come away with the 'terrible' opinions you speak of and they are entirely justified.

I know some of Michael's 80s peers have spoken publicly about lip-synching...immediately Prince and Bruce Springsteen come to mind.

 

[Nite Line]

Or, y'know, an acceptance of MJs lung condition and his health at the time. It's clear that post Bad, his voice took some damage and not even limited to live performances, either. I'm sure if he could, he would've sang live. I think it would've been nice if he re-recorded songs, especially the Off The Wall medley to sound live. Would've been a nice meet in the middle for the situation.

Doesn't make the tour 'terrible' or 'boring' as many fans have stated. 'Stan culture' or thinking in the reality of the situation.

I'm fully aware of MJ's health conditions that prevented him from singing live. You know, what gets me more than the actual lip-syncing is how obvious the lip-syncing was. Like Michael didn't even try to make it look less obvious that he wasn't singing live.

During the History tour, Michael's voice sounded terrible during Wanna Be Startin Somethin, but fine (not great) during the Jackson 5 medley and the Heal The World and You Are Not Alone ad-libs. What Michael should have done was drop WBSS from the setlist, as it had run its course by the History Tour. He should have instead kept Jam as a part of the setlist. Yeah, Jam would have been lip-synced but I don't mind that. Michael should have tried to sign a couple of non danceable songs live, such as Stranger In Moscow.

As for the songs from Thriller and Off The Wall, he definitely should have either re-recorded their vocals in the studio or altered with the pitch to make it seem less obvious that he was lip-syncing. Michael's voice changed a lot from Off The Wall era to the History era. Yet he was lip-syncing to the studio vocals of the Off The Wall medley, Billie Jean, Beat It & Thriller on the History tour. You think anyone was gonna fall for that? You think anyone was gonna believe that a nearly 40 year old Michael sounds exactly the same as a early 20s Michael. It was honestly embarrassing and absolutely cringe worthy seeing him lip-sync to OTW medley, in particular, during the History Tour. I can't believe he didn't try anything to make the lip-syncing appear less obvious.

I've a bigger issue with Michael failing to make his lip-syncing appear less obvious than the actual lip-syncing. Lip-syncing is a form of art and when done right, could make for a spectacular performance/show. Michael himself perfected the art of lip-syncing on more than one occasion. The biggest example of that would be the Motown 25 performance of Billie Jean. Michael lip-synced Billie Jean during that performance, but does anyone talk about it? No, because the performance was so epic and Michael perfected the art of lip-syncing. Sadly, he failed spectacularly to master the art of lip-syncing during the History tour, in my opinion.

 

[BadTour87]

Lip syncing ain't really a huge problem to me, given the circumstances of MJ's situation at the time. I like the HIStory Tour far better than his other tours, it's just such a great theatrical show. (+ the band is his best band)

 

[KOPV]

regarding HIStory, he was damned if he sang (and voice was not right) and damned if he lipsynced... And really damned if he canceled the tour due to his vocal issues.

We got what he could give out! At least what he felt he could give out.. Im sure his voice at 60% is still something us fans would go wild for though

 

[Nite Line]

Can someone explain to me what happened to MJ's voice between the Royal Brunei concert (July 16) and the first History Tour show (September 7). His voice sounded fine during the Royal concert, yet it sounded not so good by the time History Tour started. How did he manage to damage his voice so much in less than two months, that he had to lip-sync virtually the entire History Tour concerts?

 

[Snake2J]

Can someone explain to me what happened to MJ's voice between the Royal Brunei concert (July 16) and the first History Tour show (September 7). His voice sounded fine during the Royal concert, yet it sounded not so good by the time History Tour started. How did he manage to damage his voice so much in less than two months, that he had to lip-sync virtually the entire History Tour concerts?

His voice had still deteriorated by that point. He may have overdid it trying to sing live during rehearsals and he did get sick during the tour too which resulted in live vocals like the Munich concert which must have been embarrassing for him. I think he cancelled the planned home release of that show due to how bad he sounded. He really had no chance without lip syncing.

While it was probably more obvious in comparison to his previous tours, I don't think it was as obvious to most people as it may seem just by watching pro concert footage. I think the experience of the show trumped any lip syncing. As an aside, Michael lip synced every single TV performance he did in the 90s right up to his final one in 02. His 95 VMA performance was a huge hit and he didn't even try to hide the fact he was lip syncing every song to the point where he wasn't even wearing a mic for his Dangerous performance. The point is the majority of people didn't care because of who he was. He just lit up the stage and was magic.

 

[Robbsaber01]

Can someone explain to me what happened to MJ's voice between the Royal Brunei concert (July 16) and the first History Tour show (September 7). His voice sounded fine during the Royal concert, yet it sounded not so good by the time History Tour started. How did he manage to damage his voice so much in less than two months, that he had to lip-sync virtually the entire History Tour concerts?

His vocals weren't that strong during Brunei.

Maybe if the setlist was shortened it would have been better.
As mentioned above OTW medley was not a good choice for playback. Maybe have Human Nature /IJCSLY in the setlist instead.
If History tour had at least more than 2 live songs then the playback would've been more acceptable IMO. I understand some people just want the theatrics but I need vocals in a LIVE show. Still an amazing MJ performance but my least favourite out of the big 3.

 

[ChrisC]

Could have adapted his performance to cope with the challenges he faced. But he didn't. He just kept on doing the same thing.

Clearly Michael could still sing.

 

[Nite Line]

Could have adapted his performance to cope with the challenges he faced. But he didn't. He just kept on doing the same thing.

Clearly Michael could still sing.

Exactly. Listen to some of his ad libs from Heal The World on the History Tour. His vocals are absolutely heavenly. Blood on the Dance Floor was recorded in early 1997, in the middle of the history tour and he sounds fine on that song.

Like you said, he could still sing. Just maybe not sing and dance at the same time. Michael thought he had a choice to make between singing and dancing, and he choose to prioritise dancing, which I think was wrong to do.

 

[dam2040]

Exactly. Listen to some of his ad libs from Heal The World on the History Tour. His vocals are absolutely heavenly. Blood on the Dance Floor was recorded in early 1997, in the middle of the history tour and he sounds fine on that song.

Like you said, he could still sing. Just maybe not sing and dance at the same time. Michael thought he had a choice to make between singing and dancing, and he choose to prioritise dancing, which I think was wrong to do.

Studio vocals don’t equate to dancing in front of an audience for two hours.

 

[1nn5]

Can someone explain to me what happened to MJ's voice between the Royal Brunei concert (July 16) and the first History Tour show (September 7). His voice sounded fine during the Royal concert, yet it sounded not so good by the time History Tour started. How did he manage to damage his voice so much in less than two months, that he had to lip-sync virtually the entire History Tour concerts?

I think for the Brunei concert, Michael tried to " test " his voice

 

[Nite Line]

Studio vocals don’t equate to dancing in front of an audience for two hours.

Which is why I think he should have perhaps focused more on singing and less on dancing during the History tour.

 

[Nite Line]

I think for the Brunei concert, Michael tried to " test " his voice

A test that he passed for me. His vocals during the Brunei concert weren't his best, but they were still very good. IJCSLY Royal Brunei performance remains my favourite performance of the song. And lets not forget the heavenly Earth Song ad libs. Michael was still an amazing live singer. Too bad he lost confidence in his ability as a live singer in the 90s.