Brooke Sheild.s-book/ Excerpts in People-Magazine

[HIStory]

Many here feel she has never said anything against mIchael and like her. This means you are a Brooke fan.

Well, that must be a new definition of the meaning of "fan". No, just because you do not take issues with someone's comments it does not mean you are a fan of hers. LOL. I think I have seen like two Brooke movies all my life, so how am I a fan? I do not follow her career or life, the only aspect of her life that was ever any interest to me was her interactions with Michael. That is because I'm a Michael fan, not a Brooke fan. Let people define themselves and please do not take it on yourself to label them as the fan of this or that when they themselves do not identify as such.

 

[Petrarose]

Now someone explain me, in what moment did I tell any of you are less Michael for sading with Brooke and/or calling you Brooke fans? When in the world I said that?

^^You did not. It is a ploy I see all the time on the forum. Whenever people are in a big discussion and one side sees the other party is not being swayed to their point of view, or other reason which I will not list, they look for words that they can use to show an insult or an attempt on your part to belittle them. The most common one is "i am not a good fan or real fan". They will take something out of context and interpret it that way, and there is nothing you can do. You can't tell someone they are not insulted if they tell you they are. Just be the bigger person and say sorry.

 

[ivy]

Ivy if you want to stand by the I am always right stance and say chicken out means afraid then I will leave you to it.

what part of "I don't necessarily disagree with you" or "I too think Michael's reasons was religious" wasn't understood? So can you please not make accusations towards me when I'm agreeing with you?

she has to comment in a veiled way. We are not going against any rules here.

saying someone isn't a real fan is actually against the rules. so what are you saying here? Snow wouldn't care about the rules, or even if the rules are broken nothing will be done? And yes I also have my experiences and knowledge about her. Some of her characteristics that you portray as positive is actually being disrespectful in my opinion. but let's not go that road.

Sometimes people look for things in other people's comments so they can say they are hurt by it, if they feel they can't sway the person to their point of view. Do you think this is happening to you. Don't get offended by this, but could this be the reason?

I never try to sway anyone's opinion, I actually think it is moot to try to sway opinions. I also didn't say I was hurt by her comment, I wasn't and it's not that easy to hurt me. I just point out the veiled attempts of insult and disrespect towards other members.I preferred to call people out. And apparently it hit a nerve that you are trying to defend her.

I am stressing my opinion firmly and not backing down due to a lack of support.

and neither do I.

This means you are a Brooke fan. You like Brooke.

I'm not a Brooke fan. I don't like or dislike her.

Why does the comment have to have an ulterior motive to attempt to insult?

again let's not insult our intelligence please. It's exactly the same thing as calling people plants, pro estate, pro aeg, pro jackson, anti jackson and so on. We all experienced it multiple times in multiple different discussion. we all know the intentions in labeling people. I said my piece.

 

[HIStory]

^^You did not. It is a ploy I see all the time on the forum. Whenever people are in a big discussion and one side sees the other party is not being swayed to their point of view, or other reason which I will not list, they look for words that they can use to show an insult or an attempt on your part to belittle them. The most common one is "i am not a good fan or real fan". They will take something out of context and interpret it that way, and there is nothing you can do. You can't tell someone they are not insulted if they tell you they are. Just be the bigger person and say sorry.

It's a bit ironic from you since you have written this just a couple of hours ago:

I like these types of threads because it shows what fans really think about Michael. We tend to talk about nonfans or haters as thinking stereotyped ideas about Michael. But over the years, I have found these types of threads do show that within the fan base there are fans who hold these same views. Some will throw his sexuality under the bus to agree with a loved artist/star/writer, and I find it all enlightening.

 

[Petrarose]

Ivy about this: again let's not insult our intelligence please. It's exactly the same thing as calling people plants, pro estate, pro aeg, pro jackson, anti jackson and so on. We all experienced it multiple times in multiple different discussion. we all know the intentions in labeling people. I said my piece.

Here is where we differ, plants to me is an insult because to me it means you are not of us but just here for an ulterior motive that is negative. However, pro estate, pro aeg, pro jackson, anti jackson is not an insult to me if I am one. If I am pro any of the above I am happy because I like them. If I am anti Jackson, I don't like them so to say that to me will make me happy. The only problem is if the people you call pro are con and those you call anti are pro then it is an insult. That is why I don't understand why the term Brooke fan is an attempt to insult. You can only be insulted if you don't like her and people say you are her fan. I see the Brooke fan as being exactly what it says--a Brooke fan. That is someone who likes Brooke. Maybe you are the only one who is indifferent to her but some here said they like her. They are not fans of hers like they are with Michel but they are a fan nevertheless.

You see that is exactly what happens. People know to say nonfan gets people in an uproar, so people through it out in these threads to get a mod to do something. Actually I am surprised you are using this gimmick. Everybody knows you are strong Michael supporter. You pay thousand of dollars to buy transcripts/documents which you share with others for free to help the Michael cause. Anyone who says you are not a fan is a fool and I will write it in the thread and take my ban. That is another reason Snow would not say something so foolish. One thing she is not and that is simpleminded intellectually.0

 

[LindavG]

Well, that must be a new definition of the meaning of "fan". No, just because you do not take issues with someone's comments it does not mean you are a fan of hers. LOL. I think I have seen like two Brooke movies all my life, so how am I a fan? I do not follow her career or life, the only aspect of her life that was ever any interest to me was her interactions with Michael. That is because I'm a Michael fan, not a Brooke fan. Let people define themselves and please do not take it on yourself to label them as the fan of this or that when they themselves do not identify as such.

Be careful, this may spark another three-page discussion about the meaning of the word "fan". As if we're all mentally challenged.

 

[ivy]

Here is where we differ

I think something is being lost in discussion.

This is not about liking or disliking Brooke, this is not about being pro or anti anything. This is not about expressing our positions. My point is when such labels are used in discussions to discredit people and/or their opinions.

I called out this sentence

No matter how you Brooke fans defend her and justify, her remarks were ignorant and offensive.

The sentence not only included "you Brooke fans" to address people but it also meant "no matter what you say, what I say is absolutely correct". So I maintain that the use of "you Brooke fans" was to discredit the opposing side and their opinions. Otherwise there was no need for such label, after all we could be ALL be Michael fans who happen to have different opinions about this situation. Plus as pointed out we don't need to be "fan" of Brooke. and no liking someone doesn't mean you are a fan of them and I haven't seen anyone calling themselves a Brooke fan. You interpreted liking someone = being a fan of them and Snow attached a label of "Brooke fans" - it is all unsolicited.

I'm not going to change my mind on this. So it's quite futile to go on about this.

 

[Petrarose]

I think something is being lost in discussion.

This is not about liking or disliking Brooke, this is not about being pro or anti anything. This is not about expressing our positions. My point is when such labels are used in discussions to discredit people and/or their opinions.

I called out this sentence



The sentence not only included "you Brooke fans" but it also meant "no matter what you say, what I say is absolutely correct". So I maintain that the use of "you Brooke fans" was to discredit the opposing side and their opinions. Otherwise there was no need for such label, after all we could be ALL be Michael fans who happen to have different opinions about this situation. Plus as pointed out we don't need to be "fan" of Brooke. and no liking someone doesn't mean you are a fan of them and I haven't seen anyone calling themselves a Brooke fan. You interpreted liking someone = being a fan of them and Snow attached a label of "Brooke fans" - it is all unsolicited.

I'm not going to change my mind on this. So it's quite futile to go on about this.

I understand you in the bolded^^ only because I am seeing it as the way you interpret it. I can't go against you there, because this is you saying to me this is what the person mean. I am not asking you to change your mind either. However, just because you feel that way, know that it does not mean the person was saying that. This is all your perception of it, especially the part about "no matter what you say, what I say is absolutely correct." Waw how did it get to that point? This is why I like to look at documents of important issues to read it myself, because depending on other people's conclusions and perceptions can be misleading. I am glad I was able to see Snow's original comment in the context it was made and able to read all her posts prior to that so I could have a sense of the commentary. If I had just went to your post and saw that, I would have a different take on what was said.

The label as you call it, can't relate to ALL micahel fans who happen to have different opinions about this situation, because she is talking about those fans here who are for the Brooke issue and have the same opinion. This is what is going on here. Fans of the same opinion. Take a look back to page 1 and you will see. That does not mean those same Brooke fans are not Michael fans. She is just specifying about the Brooke fans. I am a Brooke and Michael fan, so if she says to me you Brooke fan, I will not feel she is saying I am not a Michael fan. Some people are Michael and Elvis fans, which I am, so if someone says to me you mIchael fan it does not mean they are telling me I am not an Elvis fan.

You mention about the poster and what you feel about her, are you sure you are not putting your feelings about her into your interpretation about her words. I know you are grown, but we are all human.

 

[Petrarose]

Be careful, this may spark another three-page discussion about the meaning of the word "fan". As if we're all mentally challenged.

Haaa Gee I love this thank you. You may not have intended it to bring me humor but I did find it very funny. I hope you are not insulted that I found it funny.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

What on earth are you freaking reading ivy? Since when "no matter how you Brooke fans defend her or justify, her remarks are ignorant and offensive" equates and means "you're wrong and I am right"? It means what you saw written, no other hidden meaning. But I'm the juvenile one! Please, stop making up of your head things I never even said.

 

[LindavG]

What on earth are you freaking reading ivy? Since when "no matter how you Brooke fans defend her or justify, her remarks are ignorant and offensive" equates and means "you're wrong and I am right"? It means what you saw written, no other hidden meaning. But I'm the juvenile one! Please, stop making up of your head things I never even said.

You state it as a fact when actually it's just your opinion that Brooke's remarks were ignorant and offensive. That's what this whole discussion is about. So yes, your statement does come down to "you're wrong and I'm right".

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I don't know if there's a problem of semantics, cognitive dissonance but if I wanted to say that remark you're implying, I would have said it. It means, no matter how much you justify her or defend her, her remarks don't stop being ignorant and offensive, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Petrarose]

What on earth are you freaking reading ivy? Since when "no matter how you Brooke fans defend her or justify, her remarks are ignorant and offensive" equates and means "you're wrong and I am right"? It means what you saw written, no other hidden meaning. But I'm the juvenile one! Please, stop making up of your head things I never even said.

Exactly. How this part was added there I don't know. Further, everyone here is writing their views as though they are right. No one is going into a discussion and acting as though they are wrong. If that was the case, then there would be no need for discussion. People would just ask others to tell them what to think becuase they were not sure. So I don't get some of the conclusions here. If Snow comment meant she was right, then every one's comments here would mean they were right and does that mean I should feel offense and see myself as less of a fan.

Personally, I feel people have to be strong within themselves about who they are so that they don't read instant insults into comments.

I find people are using language loosely here. Being strong in your comments does not mean you are better. Where are people getting these things from? The biggest problem is that people are drawing conclusions from information that have nothing to do with the information they have.

This thread should teach people to please read information for yourself, especially about the allegations. Lately, I find myself not reading people's summaries about facts in the Wade thread, because I see the same posters in other threads like here use a lot of faulty logic or their own interpretation to draw conclusions. People like to be the Gods of threads. I strongly suggest that people don't be lazy and read content for yourself. Anyway don't want to derail this thread.

By the way Ivy the latter part of this does not refer to you so don't get offended.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't pleasant for Michael hearing words and insults he was not, especially if they put him in a bad light. I remember how hurt he was when they called him that disgusting monicker tabloids and haters love using, girl/woman, homosexual, racist, p.., etc. I bet asexual would be included in that list

 

[LindavG]

I don't know if there's a problem of semantics, cognitive dissonance but if I wanted to say that remark you're implying, I would have said it. It means, no matter how much you justify her or defend her, her remarks don't stop being ignorant and offensive, nothing more, nothing less.

It is cognitive dissonance on your part. Several people here do not agree with you that Brooke's remarks were ignorant and offensive. Therefore, when you state as fact that they are, as you're doing now again, you're effectively saying "you are wrong if you disagree with me". I truly do not understand how this is not obvious to you.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

It is cognitive dissonance on your part. Several people here do not agree with you that Brooke's remarks were ignorant and offensive. Therefore, when you state as fact that they are, as you're doing now again, you're effectively saying "you are wrong if you disagree with me". I truly do not understand how this is not obvious to you.

If her remarks weren't offensive to you or anyone else here, it's your choice but it doesn't mean all the fans will agree with your taking.

 

[ivy]

What on earth are you freaking reading ivy? Since when "no matter how you Brooke fans defend her or justify, her remarks are ignorant and offensive" equates and means "you're wrong and I am right"? It means what you saw written, no other hidden meaning. But I'm the juvenile one! Please, stop making up of your head things I never even said.

are we still on insulting our intelligence? when you say "no matter what you say, my opinion of "ignorant and offensive" is correct" you do indeed claim your opinion is right. It's not really a hidden meaning, it's an obvious meaning.

No one is going into a discussion and acting as though they are wrong.

Of course people don't think they are wrong but there's a difference in you how you express yourself. I have no problems with someone saying " I absolutely think her comments are offensive and ignorant". But when someone says "I don't care whatever you others say, my opinion is an disputable fact" it is disrespecting others opinions. That also makes a discussion futile isn't it? and that's exactly what I said didn't I? Disrespecting others opinion while also labeling them?

It is cognitive dissonance on your part. Several people here do not agree with you that Brooke's remarks were ignorant and offensive. Therefore, when you state as fact that they are, as you're doing now again, you're effectively saying "you are wrong if you disagree with me". I truly do not understand how this is not obvious to you.

This. Yes when you state your opinion as a fact and add whatever people say doesn't matter, you are effectively saying you are right and people are wrong. and yes it's obvious. It's not a "hidden meaning".


------

anyway aren't you bored with all this sing and dance and back tracking? I called out a behavior I saw. It hit a nerve. You are all defensive and trying to backtrack but it's not gonna work as I said I'm not gonna change my take no matter what you say.

Funny how all the questions/discussion about Brooke got ignored and this is what you choose to focus on.

 

[Petrarose]

If her remarks weren't offensive to you or anyone else here, it's your choice but it doesn't mean all the fans will agree with your taking.

True, especially fans we have lost like Ginviv and others from the older group would find it offensive, and we are all fans. It is just that some see Michel in a more stereotypical way than others. Some of those same fans are found in the Mirror threads talking about how sexy he is. It is sometimes difficult to understand the inconsistencies of human character. People switch gears from one thread to another.

Ivy now come on so now we are into "how she express it." ^^ How she expressed it still does not say anything about what you added to the meaning. I always see you as a factual person, so why spoil it with this. It is beneath you to try to strengthen your argument by resorting to these tactics. Everyone here is comment from the perspective of being correct. Read back and you will see. I feel I am right. You stated you are not going to change your mind, so isn't that you saying you are right. You see the double standard here. You have a right to feel you are right. Still this person never said that anyway.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

If you accuse of something I never said or did, I will defend myself. Stop twisting my words and making up things it came out of your head.

 

[Petrarose]

If you accuse of something I never said or did, I will defend myself. Stop twisting my words and making up things it came out of your head.

Ivy you know she is correct here. The thing is I know people say negative things about you on the internet. I never saw it because I don't go surfing. I always feel saddened by it, because you don't deserve it. Due to that experience you have, do you think you are automatically reading all that into Snow's comment? I mean I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. Can you truthfully examine your feelings about it. Let me share a personal story. A few years ago this person told me some sports guy took something to lighten his skin and he looked so horrible. I can't remember if she was showing me the photo on the computer or magazine or if she showed me a magazine and then showed me how he looked before from internet footage. Since I never paid attention to this guy before, When I looked at him, he just looked like a handsome light-skinned Afrcan American. The point is I did not have a reference of thinking lightness ugly or thinking darker is better than ligher, so I did not see this ugliness she was talking about. Sometimes our own feelings about things cloud our interpretation of what we see.

 

[LindavG]

Exactly. How this part was added there I don't know. Further, everyone here is writing their views as though they are right. No one is going into a discussion and acting as though they are wrong. If that was the case, then there would be no need for discussion. People would just ask others to tell them what to think becuase they were not sure. So I don't get some of the conclusions here. If Snow comment meant she was right, then every one's comments here would mean they were right and does that mean I should feel offense and see myself as less of a fan.

No, but most of us qualify our statements by saying "in my opinion", "my impression is", "I think", "I believe", etc. Respect77, Ivy and I have all said that there is no right or wrong about this because we're all just speaking from our own perspectives of Michael and none of us know the truth. You on the other hand just cannot seem to accept any other perspective of Michael than your own. Your comment that Respect77 quoted in post #124 illustrates that perfectly. If we don't agree with you, we're agreeing with MJ haters.

I find people are using language loosely here. Being strong in your comments does not mean you are better. Where are people getting these things from? The biggest problem is that people are drawing conclusions from information that have nothing to do with the information they have.

No offense, but I don't think you should be the one lecturing others about this because you've been guilty of this more than once in this thread alone. For example, you said this:

"However, there were people in the thread who asked what abandonment as though Michael was not abandoned. They were acting as though he was not abandoned at all because of a list, and these same people agree that he was abandoned in other threads."

When no one in this thread ever said such a thing. You are deliberately twisting people's words to suit your own argument. I was the one who first brought up the list and this is what I said:

"I also don't think the majority of his friends and associates turned their backs on him. I remember seeing this note by Michael's assistant with all these people who offered their support to Michael. The real truth is that we don't know everything that went on in Michael's private life and who was or was not there for him privately."

"I'm not denying that there were people who turned their backs on him, I just don't think it was the majority. And if Brooke was one of those people, Michael clearly didn't hold a grudge against her all those years later so why should we?"

Respect77 was the other person who mentioned the list and she said something similar.

Another example: Ivy is talking about intimate encounters with a friend and mentions kissing as an example. You pretend as if she meant a kiss on the cheek (when any reasonable person knows that's not what she means) and base your whole argument on that.

Or what about your comment that anyone who "likes" Brooke must be a fan of hers. If that's not drawing conclusions based on information that have nothing to do with the information you have, I don't know what is. Starting with the assumption that people must like Brooke if they don't find her comments about Michael offensive.

 

[ivy]

If you accuse of something I never said or did, I will defend myself.

you don't need to defend yourself, Petra will do that for you.

it's your choice but it doesn't mean all the fans will agree with your taking.

perhaps there's hope that you realize that people might not agree with you either and hence it's not respectful to mention your opinion as a fact and state what people say doesn't matter.

Ivy you know she is correct here.

LOL, the last part of whole discussion has been about issues some of us had with people claiming/meaning they are correct and others are wrong and you decided to start your post with declaring who is correct and who is wrong. really Petra? REALLY?

allow me to make it real easy. You and Snow are correct in all regards and we are all wrong. Satisfied? and that's my cue to leave this thread for good.

 

[LindavG]

If her remarks weren't offensive to you or anyone else here, it's your choice but it doesn't mean all the fans will agree with your taking.

All fans do not agree with you either, as is clear from this thread. Therefore, it makes no sense to say "her remarks are this or that no matter what you say". To claim that this is not a factual statement is just nonsense. Exchange Brooke's name for Michael and this becomes obvious. If I were to say: "no matter what you Michael Jackson fans say, his remarks about (...) are ignorant and offensive", I doubt Petrarose would leap to my defense and say I was just expressing my own personal opinion.

 

[LindavG]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't pleasant for Michael hearing words and insults he was not, especially if they put him in a bad light. I remember how hurt he was when they called him that disgusting monicker tabloids and haters love using, girl/woman, homosexual, racist, p.., etc. I bet asexual would be included in that list

How is that in any way relevant to this thread?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

^^ I saw that, no one needs to rub it on my face but some of you act like Petra and I are the only offended and we can't say it because most of the people REPLYING this thread agree with the knowing all Ivy. I'm aware I'm not a perfect English speaker like some of you are because I wasn't born in an English speaking country, I make grammatical mistakes some times but I'm fluent enough to be aware what I said, what I did, what I didn't say and I didn't do.

I never stated my opinion as a fact, I never say it doesn't matter what you think, I already said if anyone didn't find her remarks offensive, it's your choice, there will be people sharing your point of view, there will be people sharing mine . There's no need of twisting and belittle me accusing me of something I never did. I really appreciate Petra is swing the double standards some people are committing, I really do but I know I can defend myself.

 

[ivy]

the knowing all Ivy.

let me guess, that's a compliment and not name calling right? Thank you very much.

 

[MIST]

It´s only my opinion that I think these Michael quotes fits here...

"Do not judge a person, do not pass judgment, unless you have talked to them one on one."

"We are Germans. We are Armenians. French, Italian, Russian, American, Asian, African... many other nationalities. We are Christians, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu. We are black, we are white. We are a community of some many differences, so complex and yet so simple. We do not need to have war."

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

let me guess, that's a compliment and not name calling right? Thank you very much.

Sorry if you feel insulted. How do you think I felt you previously made up things according to you and other people I supposedly did?

 

[ivy]

Sorry if you feel insulted.

trust me, you cannot insult me with any name calling. As Petra mentioned before it's not my first rodeo in this regard and I'm not sensitive or offended about such things - if I were I wouldn't have lasted this long. I just find such things as amusing and yes sorry to say but juvenile. It's also amusing that in a discussion where people expressed their dislike of you using labels, you replied with another label. At least this time it didn't come with "I didn't say / mean that" or a lesson about how it's a good / positive / acceptable thing to do or say.

anyway like I said, this thread is no longer a discussion for me. so enjoy yourselves.

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Don't worry, I wasn't the only one falling into that juvenile behavior, you did it and the ones who seem regarding you in such high standards too. This thread proved me NO ONE is infallible and any person can fall into a bias behavior.