Grammys & MJ post 1984 - can someone please explain to me how...

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

It was a couple of years ago I read that article and I didn't save it. I don't remember where it was, sorry.

Oh okey. It's crazy that this album won seven grammies though. As you said, one less than thriller. I bet the critics loved the fact that he was able to acomplish this feat without Michael. It was most definitely a great win but imo totally undeserved.

Innuendo actually points out something really interesting that I think we should discuss more. Something a long the lines that MJ also was a product of these institutions "popularity contests", all though many of us feel that he deserved every single one and more! We see it all the time, the IT artist. The artist that comes out with a new song/album that gets the internet buzz going that manage to reach the gatekeepers who then award them just for being the 'cool thing out right now'. and then, as is almost always the case, the artist fades into obscurity and/or gets into a public battle with its label. These big labels are just the same. They promote the hell out of a current artist that has a buzz but as soon as another new artist comes a long they desert them. And then there is ageism, sexism and racism that also control these competitions.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

It's possible that the English are so used to it that they know better. I remember learning about the British tabloid press in High school in the 70's. The problem in America is that the mainstream news realized there was an appetite for salacious news with the new 24 hour news channels and they went where the money was. We hadn't become accustomed to a difference.

Also Midwestcowboy is correct. Most of us in the latter half of the baby boom generation (and in Michael's generation) were getting married in the 80s and having babies and they were little kids in the 90s. Heaven forbid anything happened to them and suddenly we were hearing about child kidnappings, murders, rapes-our worse nightmare.
Hearing that stuff on mainstream news, which was still a hugely respected industry, was enough to freak anyone out.

It's so crazy that it could have gone that far with the whole ritual sacrifice and satanic cults. This was the late 80's and 90's not the 1700's. This is the sheep mentality that I really detest and we have seen it happen, and still see it happening, to celebrities. As you said these were reputable insitutions, News station, Law enforcements and proffessors from universities feeding into that frenzy. At least when the witch hunt happened in salem those institutions didn't exist. I am appalled by it.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

As you said these were reputable insitutions, News station, Law enforcements and proffesors from universities feeding into that frenzy. At least when the witch hunt happened in salem those institutions didn't exist. I am appalled by it.

Im equally appalled by it. I was comparing something to the Salem witch hunts and Hitlers rhetoric just the other day.

It's sad and pathetic that money/ratings rule what we get from the supposedly objective press.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Innuendo actually points out something really interesting that I think we should discuss more. Something a long the lines that MJ also was a product of these institutions "popularity contests", all though many of us feel that he deserved every single one and more! We see it all the time, the IT artist. The artist that comes out with a new song/album that gets the internet buzz going that manage to reach the gatekeepers who then award them just for being the 'cool thing out right now'. and then, as is almost always the case, the artist fades into obscurity and/or gets into a public battle with its label. These big labels are just the same. They promote the hell out of a current artist that has a buzz but as soon as another new artist comes a long they desert them. And then there is ageism, sexism and racism that also control these competitions.

I agree with Innuendo that MJ was also a part of the machine, of course. I think he was never really a darling of the Grammy board, though. After all when you look at it, he was only really awarded big and in main categories during Thriller era when they just could not ignore him. Both before and after that he was snubbed undeservedly a couple of times.

I don't think Michael was ever a darling of the music industry, to be honest. That includes award boards and music magazines alike. They hailed him during Thriller because they could not do anything else with that kind of never before seen success, but it felt like they could not wait to tear him down.Think of how even Billie Jean getting on MTV had to be forced. But thing is Michael never needed to be the darling of the industry to be successful and influential and great. And that annoyed them too probably. LOL. He was bigger than the Grammys. Proof? Well:

[h=2]Ratings[/h] The 26th Grammys (1984) had the highest ratings in its history with 43.8 mil viewers, a record unmatched as of 2014.[SUP][3][/SUP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/26th_Annual_Grammy_Awards

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Maybe I would be a good Grammy voter since it was mentioned they have a soft spot for swing, jazz and jazz/pop. As do I-since birth. But also for soul and blues.

Dick Clark invented the AMAs because they lost their contract to air the Grammys AND because the most popular/biggest sellers weren't being honored.
But the Grammys are like other institutions that just can't ignore something that is really huge-like Thriller was. Also helped that it was an excellent album.
Oscars are the same way-they can be very political or very often people get it when they don't deserve it. Elizabeth Taylor should have won for Cat and she got it the next year for Butterfield 8-out of sympathy. Happens all the time.

(Wasn't the second biggest Grammy audience after Michael died and his kids picked up his lifetime achievement award. Think it was.)

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

I agree with Innuendo that MJ was also a part of the machine, of course. I think he was never really a darling of the Grammy board, though. After all when you look at it, he was only really awarded big and in main categories during Thriller era when they just could not ignore him. Both before and after that he was snubbed undeservedly a couple of times.

I don't think Michael was ever a darling of the music industry, to be honest. That includes award boards and music magazines alike. They hailed him during Thriller because they could not do anything else with that kind of never before seen success, but it felt like they could not wait to tear him down.Think of how even Billie Jean getting on MTV had to be forced. But thing is Michael never needed to be the darling of the industry to be successful and influential and great. And that annoyed them too probably. LOL.

Oh I hadn't looked at it that way. MJ even said he couldn't be on certain magazines because they ignored him. Some people are so ungrateful that they don't even understand the magnitude of how Thriller changed the music industry. Especially these black artists attack MJ for wanting to be white. They don't know how much he had to fight against ignorance and racism within the industry and I dare to say if it wasn't for him breaking those norms and rules in that critical time who knows how long it would have taken for a black artist to get his/her video played on MTV. To put it in perspective it took MJ having the biggest album of all time to desegregate MTV and other channels. Now tell me what black artist back then would be capable of pulling of that feat?

@Barbee

Yes you can draw interesting parallels between salem,the satanic panic, Roscoe Arbuckle and the accusations leveled against MJ.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Oh I hadn't looked at it that way. MJ even said he couldn't be on certain magazines because they ignored him.

He told the truth.

When I see things like this, it always reminds me of the line from Black or White: "I had to tell them I ain't second to none."

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

He told the truth.

When I see things like this, it always reminds me of the line from Black or White: "I had to tell them I ain't second to none."

Wow.. The album had 4 us top 10 hits and won him 3 AMA's and one grammy and that's not cover story enough for them? Ridiculous.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Wow.. The album had 4 us top 10 hits and won him 3 AMA's and one grammy and that's not cover story enough for them? Ridiculous.

Exactly. And they have the nerve to say that MJ was already on RS cover so everything is alright. Well, he was. When he was 13.

BTW it's interesting to see who were worthy of a cover story for RS in 1979, as opposed to OTW: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/pictures/1979-rolling-stone-covers-20040511

 

[DuranDuran]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Wow.. The album had 4 us top 10 hits and won him 3 AMA's and one grammy and that's not cover story enough for them? Ridiculous.

The letter is probably code for "if we put a black R&B singer on the cover, we won't sell as many issues in the stores and get a lot of returns".

 

[Antwort]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Really great thread and most interesting discussion everyone. Thanks a bunch!

He told the truth.

When I see things like this, it always reminds me of the line from Black or White: "I had to tell them I ain't second to none."

Goodness, that letter is heart wrenching. I heard about magazines refusing to put him on covers in the 70s, but to see it in print like that - such a blatant proof of racism. No wonder he channeled all of his anger and decided to make the album "they could no longer ignore". Ain't it funny how in 1983 he was suddenly 'worthy' enough to be a cover story?

One can only hope the current staff of RS is a bit more enlightened than the ones in preceding decades.

As history noted and as we all know, due to Thriller's phenomenal success he became so ubiquitous he was the cover story not only of music magazines, but he even ended up on the cover of Time, a publication I actually admire and used to have a collection of back in the late 90s.

It really is mind boggling when you think about the racial barrier Michael had to overcome in the early 80s. It truly is. Thriller's success speaks a ton about his sheer determination and absolute ambition to prove doubters wrong. I'm soooo very proud of him because of that and many other things.

 

[DuranDuran]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

I read a book recently that mentioned that Rolling Stone letter. It's about the promo guys in the record business and different labels. It came out in 2014.

 

[DuranDuran]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Goodness, that letter is heart wrenching. I heard about magazines refusing to put him on covers in the 70s, but to see it in print like that - such a blatant proof of racism. No wonder he channeled all of his anger and decided to make the album "they could no longer ignore". Ain't it funny how in 1983 he was suddenly 'worthy' enough to be a cover story?

One can only hope the current staff of RS is a bit more enlightened than the ones in preceding decades.

It's not entirely Rolling Stone's fault. They are a business and it wouldn't make much sense to put someone on the cover who is going to sell less. You have to look at the general society too. It's like back in the 1950s when Pat Boone would outsell Little Richard with the same songs.

 

[Antwort]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

It's not entirely Rolling Stone's fault. They are a business and it wouldn't make much sense to put someone on the cover who is going to sell less. You have to look at the general society too. It's like back in the 1950s when Pat Boone would outsell Little Richard with the same songs.

You make a valid point Duran about the overall tone of race relations in America at that point in time. But I don't think the media can always hide under the umbrella of giving the public what it wants. Unlike other industries, the media has the power to shape people's attitudes about the world so they have the responsibility to direct and correct the public when needed. I can also understand the business imperatives in search for profit. However, what I cannot accept is the disregard for morality, decency and simple humanity in the pursuit of ratings and sales. Unfortunately, many outlets have taken the easy way out by focusing on scandal and lies and pandering to the lowest of levels in human nature.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

Some people are so ungrateful that they don't even understand the magnitude of how Thriller changed the music industry. Especially these black artists attack MJ for wanting to be white. They don't know how much he had to fight against ignorance and racism within the industry and I dare to say if it wasn't for him breaking those norms and rules in that critical time who knows how long it would have taken for a black artist to get his/her video played on MTV. To put it in perspective it took MJ having the biggest album of all time to desegregate MTV and other channels. Now tell me what black artist back then would be capable of pulling of that feat?

Been watching a lot of music documentaries lately and saw a good one about Sammy Davis Jr. not too long ago-absolutely heartwrenching what he went through with the racism thing-the man was an extraordinary talent and that was exactly what kicked down the door of having people accept him in white clubs and theatres-that kind of talent just can NOT be denied-and the very same time, Black America turned against him calling him an "uncle Tom" and worse. (I've read similar things about Diana Ross and Whitney Houston).
Damned if you do and damned if you don't-but those allegations of Sammy "wanting to be white" just burn me up.

I remember back when I was 3 or 4 and I saw my first "movie magazines" and the covers were always of Elizabeth Taylor stealing Debbie Reynolds husband and Sammy Davis Jr. and his WHITE wife.

You make a valid point Duran about the overall tone of race relations in America at that point in time. But I don't think the media can always hide under the umbrella of giving the public what it wants. Unlike other industries, the media has the power to shape people's attitudes about the world so they have the responsibility to direct and correct the public when needed. I can also understand the business imperatives in search for profit. However, what I cannot accept is the disregard for morality, decency and simple humanity in the pursuit of ratings and sales. Unfortunately, many outlets have taken the easy way out by focusing on scandal and lies and pandering to the lowest of levels in human nature.

Thinking back to when I was a teenager in the 70's and Norman Lear was scandalizing everybody at the same time making them laugh with the blatant bigotry on "All In the Family"-and the strides taken to reveal racism and homophobia, etc. We had and have so far to go-those were the first baby steps, I guess.

 

[DuranDuran]

Mtv

It's the same with MTV. They did play a few black videos in the early days, but it was people like Joan Armatrading & Eddy Grant. Very few and not really R&B, so I don't think it was "let's not show black singers" per se, but more "let's show videos that white teens & young adults will like" and a lot of it was rock bands like Loverboy. R&B wasn't really the format and R&B is generally black performers. Yet early MTV did show white acts doing R&B type music like Hall & Oates, Robert Palmer, ABC, and the reggae style The Police. But they were pop enough like Lionel Richie & Billy Ocean. It's not like they were Teena Marie, who never really had a Top 40 pop presence. Her music was too funky for pop radio. But American Bandstand, which was technically marketed to a white audience, did show R&B and funk acts that didn't get on MTV or even Top 40 pop radio during that time. That only came on once a week though and so was limited on what they could show. MTV was everyday all day. I don't think MTV had much influence in the beginning anyway because most people didn't have cable and the ones who did, MTV wasn't in many areas at first.

 

[HIStory]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

and the very same time, Black America turned against him calling him an "uncle Tom" and worse. (I've read similar things about Diana Ross and Whitney Houston).

Yes, Whitney was booed at the Soul Train awards for allegedly being "too white".

In Cissy Houston's 2013 memoir Remembering Whitney: My Story of Love, Loss, and the Night the Music Stopped, Whitney's mother recalled hearing from the Shrine's balcony "someone started yelling 'White-ey! White-ey!' like it was something clever."

http://gawker.com/remember-when-whitney-houston-got-booed-for-being-too-w-1660783143

 

[DuranDuran]

Here's a video from 1983 where David Bowie speaks about MTV not playing many black artists. I think the station David mentions seeing black videos but doesn't know the name might be BET, which had a show at the time called Video Soul.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In our 1983 David Bowie interview, he criticizes MTV for not playing enough music videos by black artists. <a href="https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN">https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN</a></p>&mdash; MTV News (@MTVNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MTVNews/status/686608586194030592">January 11, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Here's a video from 1983 where David Bowie speaks about MTV not playing many black artists. I think the station David mentions seeing black videos but doesn't know the name might be BET, which had a show at the time called Video Soul.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In our 1983 David Bowie interview, he criticizes MTV for not playing enough music videos by black artists. <a href="https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN">https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN</a></p>— MTV News (@MTVNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MTVNews/status/686608586194030592">January 11, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

David Bowie was a great man.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

^^Wow.
That line of questioning from David Bowie (that led right to the MTV guy admitting they were racist without using the word) has to be one of the most impressive things I've seen in years.
Absolutely amazing. Thank you SO much for posting that. My respect for him just went through the roof.

 

[innuendo141]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

I hadn't seen that in years. Another absolute knock out from the man who ditched Ziggy Stardust to perform on Soul Train

 

[Antwort]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In our 1983 David Bowie interview, he criticizes MTV for not playing enough music videos by black artists. <a href="https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN">https://t.co/G2ePJFcaRN</a></p>&#8212; MTV News (@MTVNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MTVNews/status/686608586194030592">January 11, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

THANK YOU for posting this, a most intriguing conversation indeed. It's quite embarrassing to watch the MTV fellow try to explain away their narrow-minded policies at the time. Not only that, but his insertion of middle America as an argument against the promotion of black artists is quite unfortunate also. An incident recounted by Sheila a few days ago in another thread http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137416-Present-day-MJ-feel-goods shows that even "rednecks" can get their MJ groove on. I've seen Arsenio Hall mention on Twitter the convo Duran posted and how Michael's undeniable talent kick the MTV door down. Nice of them to own up to their mistakes decades later.

Tonight, as President Obama prepares to give his last State of the Union speech, we may take for granted some of the advances of the civil rights movement, but we cannot forget the abuse and the mistreatment which was rampant not many decades ago. Black Lives Matter shows that things are far from perfect, but we can at least take some comfort in the fact that the music industry is more "integrated", as David Bowie wished back in 1983. And we can definitely be proud that one little Jackson 5 kid grew up into the man who forced MTV to play black artists and RS to put them on the cover.

On a side note, but not completely off topic - MJ's official Twitter account recalls today the RS cover from early 92.

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

Re: Bowie

I hadn't seen that in years. Another absolute knock out from the man who ditched Ziggy Stardust to perform on Soul Train

THANK YOU for posting this, a most intriguing conversation indeed. It's quite embarrassing to watch the MTV fellow try to explain away their narrow-minded policies at the time. Not only that, but his insertion of middle America as an argument against the promotion of black artists is quite unfortunate also. An incident recounted by Sheila a few days ago in another thread http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/137416-Present-day-MJ-feel-goods shows that even "rednecks" can get their MJ groove on. I've seen Arsenio Hall mention on Twitter the convo Duran posted and how Michael's undeniable talent kick the MTV door down. Nice of them to own up to their mistakes decades later.

Tonight, as President Obama prepares to give his last State of the Union speech, we may take for granted some of the advances of the civil rights movement, but we cannot forget the abuse and the mistreatment which was rampant not many decades ago. Black Lives Matter shows that things are far from perfect, but we can at least take some comfort in the fact that the music industry is more "integrated", as David Bowie wished back in 1983. And we can definitely be proud that one little Jackson 5 kid grew up into the man who forced MTV to play black artists and RS to put them on the cover.


On a side note, but not completely off topic - MJ's official Twitter account recalls today the RS cover from early 92.

I'm glad someone pulled this interview back up, especially for those that weren't born yet or too young to have viewed it. David was already at icon status at that point and it was perfect that he was calling out MTV in their FACE on their racism. I was in high school then and that was ballsy for David to do, because the network wielded the power to stymie album promotions by not showing their videos. There were other white artists that felt the same way, but remained silent so as not to piss off MTV. It took an album as huge as Thriller, a black artist as hot as Mike to kick that door down for others to come through. Much love and RESPECT for David Bowie then, now and forever! He'll always be one of my heroes. :wub:

As for the "middle America" excuse Goodman used, I'm from the Midwest and that was some major bullshit! "Middle America" was just a code phrase for white people. A lot of white people bought Thriller, loved Mike and wanted to see the videos. Those same white people grew up to vote for a biracial kid from Hawaii named Barack Obama as President of the United States, too. It wasn't just the so-called black vote that got him elected not once, but TWICE. There aren't enough of us to produce the numbers to make that happen, plus all black people don't think/vote alike, LMAO! I myself voted for Mitt Romney the second go-round.

This nation is still growing up, still pushing the envelop and I wholeheartedly believe the heights Mike reached played a huge part in that.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Okay can someone please explain to me how...

America writes it's history allows very little of others to write the history.. They wanted to write Michael down a few scales, they still do today..

 

[Antwort]

Re: Bowie

I'm glad someone pulled this interview back up, especially for those that weren't born yet or too young to have viewed it. David was already at icon status at that point and it was perfect that he was calling out MTV in their FACE on their racism. I was in high school then and that was ballsy for David to do, because the network wielded the power to stymie album promotions by not showing their videos. There were other white artists that felt the same way, but remained silent so as not to piss off MTV. It took an album as huge as Thriller, a black artist as hot as Mike to kick that door down for others to come through. Much love and RESPECT for David Bowie then, now and forever! He'll always be one of my heroes. :wub:

As for the "middle America" excuse Goodman used, I'm from the Midwest and that was some major bullshit! "Middle America" was just a code phrase for white people. A lot of white people bought Thriller, loved Mike and wanted to see the videos. Those same white people grew up to vote for a biracial kid from Hawaii named Barack Obama as President of the United States, too. It wasn't just the so-called black vote that got him elected not once, but TWICE. There aren't enough of us to produce the numbers to make that happen, plus all black people don't think/vote alike, LMAO! I myself voted for Mitt Romney the second go-round.

This nation is still growing up, still pushing the envelop and I wholeheartedly believe the heights Mike reached played a huge part in that.

It was actually MTV News that dug up this interview, which is why I thought it was a decent thing to do - to recognize the error of their ways, albeit a "few" years late. But as the cliche goes, better late than never......Much respect to David Bowie for standing up then, much respect. It was truly brilliant and brave of him to do that.

You make some very good points about middle America. Lest we forget it was also a white&Latino jury that declared Michael NOT GUILTY of the heinous and ludicrous charges brought against him. I still remember how weary people were in the aftermath of jury selection thinking he wouldn't get a fair shot. Thankfully, they were proven wrong. America can and will continue to surprise the world in its search for a more perfect Union, in spite of all setbacks and problems. I'm convinced of that.