AlwaysThere;4225416 said:Okay, let's break this one down sentence by sentence.
LONG POST ALERT -- summary at the bottom.
Commentary from the Estate in regards to the condition of the vault has been so inconsistent and vague that it's difficult to ascertain what's fact and what's fiction. Karen Langford told the IRS that the vault was empty (I'll address that in depth next), yet the Estate here maintains that "eventually more music will be released." Who are they lying to?
Oh. They're lying to the IRS.
It is a verifiable fact that there is completed music in existence that has yet to appear on a commercial product. Beyond the 10 bootlegged tracks that have popped up online over the last two decades, both John Branca and L.A. Reid have gone on record citing a minimum of 16 finished songs that were briefly considered for Xscape. Better still, it's safe to assume that that number omits material written/produced by reluctant or abstained parties (e.g., Quincy Jones, RedOne, Rod Temperton, will.i.am). If the vault is truly void of completed material, what of those 16 tracks?
What is this newfound sense of righteousness? Four years ago they willingly produced a remix album in which contemporary producers completely ignored the original material and concocted new music around the pre-recorded vocals, and now suddenly they care about what Michael would've wanted done with his music?
I assume this school of thought was only adopted following Xscape, as there are several songs in their pre-2014 catalog that Michael never put full vocals to ("Hollywood Tonight," "Don't Be Messin' 'Round," "I'm So Blue," "Free," "Al Capone"). Hell, even "Love Never Felt So Good" isn't vocally finished!
"Earth Song" toiled through six years of infrequent purification and several dozen mixes with a scratch vocal. Conversely, he ditched the completed "Loving You" rather promptly. Similarly, the finalized "Chicago" failed to make it past the summer of 1999, while "Shut Up and Dance" was granted no vocals whatsoever yet endured right up until his death. There are several other analogous examples to pick from.
There were many fully-finished songs that held little significance to Michael. Alternatively, there were many partial demos that he treasured. It was a case-by-case basis, and a blanket concept shouldn't be attributed to every outtake.
What self-pitying hogwash. Yes, those of us with an appetite for music will express some level of impatience or annoyance at delays or long periods of inactivity, but that's a commonality among an artist's fans, whether living or dead. Very few flat-out criticize the Estate for spacing out projects, as most of us are rational enough to recognize that Michael is no longer here to create new music, meaning all that exists is all that will EVER exist. Complaining about lulls in action is the least of concerns, especially when taking into account everything that fans could complain about.
Moreover, it should be noted that recent critiques have not been centered on the decision to step away from the vault, but rather on the bullsh*t rationales given to justify said decision. Honesty is always the best policy; whether or not we like the truth, the Estate would be far better off giving it.
A considerable percentage of fans are preservationists — they want to hear the material essentially as it was found, without embellishments or outside interference, completely organic and authentic. That is hardly an unwarranted or excessive demand.
Even under circumstances in which outside producers must come in to finish the existing music, there is a clearly defined way to go about it: (a) only use individuals who knew Michael to an intimate-enough degree to properly execute his wishes onto a given track; and (b) enhance, DON'T remix.
MICHAEL was on the right course in this respect — the predominance of producers had collaborated with Michael in the past and, while clearly imperfect, the end game was to accentuate what was there rather than create from scratch and, on the whole, they succeeded — whereas XSCAPE completely dropped the ball by welcoming producers who likely never met Michael, much less worked with him, and dismissed everything beyond the existing vocals.
Though not a universal alibi, most fans empathize with the focus on commercial viability and understand why it is a focal point — the Estate IS a business, after all, and businesses shouldn't/can't be expected to funnel money into a project that won't make a profit.
But to discount the several avenues through which the Estate could disseminate "unfinished" material without spending an exorbitant amount of money either shows stupidity or laziness. Since Michael's existing catalog will persist as the chief source of funds, why not let current pressings go out-of-print and repackage Thriller or Dangerous with outtakes and demos, effectively forcing the public into buying them? Or why not replicate The Ultimate Fan Extras Collection and toss a parcel of music on iTunes, requiring only mixing/mastering fees? Or assume Michael's philosophy and drop a single every so often?
TL/DR; not only is the Estate's justification for going on a musical hiatus full of holes and inconsistencies, their reaction to fan criticism boils down to juvenile finger-pointing and complaints of maltreatment. Clearly those who identify as anti-Estate will complain either way, but for the bulk of us who so desperately want to see them succeed, this sort of response is equal parts ludicrious and disheartening.
So dangerous anniversary is confirmed?! With a documentary?!?! Omggg
At some point. They would be wise to stay away from Spike Lee. His docs were average at best. The biggest reason to stay away from him is most people do not care for him. I know for a fact that people I know who are MJ fans would not watch because of Spike. So estate find a better producer hell use Prince Jackson anyone would be an improvement.
Slave To The Rhythm;4225480 said:Sorry but I don‘t understand you at all... their statement ist totally fine. All it says is that there is nothing finished in the vaults. What they mean are songs they think they could release in that state to be a success not some demos that sound like a song from the 80s or early 2000s... they mean they would have to do a new production to them and release them like they did it with Xscape and that‘s the perfect way. Would be a wasted opportunity to only release an old demo which would only be heard by the diehard fans...
And they are right they are criticized for everything they do and that will always be the case you just proved it.
The only point I agree with you is the part about the sentence with „we only want to release songs that he sang multiple times and we know he cared about“
That was probably just to please the fans but I think it‘s fine to release songs he didn‘t sing many times as long as the end product sounds good.
These boards are fairly dead for an artist as popular as Michael.
And that's because there's nothing really left to discuss.
Yeah, they really need to stop with that his docs are really bad.
Slave To The Rhythm;4225480 said:Sorry but I don‘t understand you at all... their statement ist totally fine. All it says is that there is nothing finished in the vaults. What they mean are songs they think they could release in that state to be a success not some demos that sound like a song from the 80s or early 2000s.
they mean they would have to do a new production to them and release them like they did it with Xscape and that‘s the perfect way. Would be a wasted opportunity to only release an old demo which would only be heard by the diehard fans...
And they are right they are criticized for everything they do and that will always be the case you just proved it.
SmoothGangsta;4225482 said:Yeah, they really need to stop with that his docs are really bad.
Bad 25 was great. I liked Off the Wall documentary too but it wasn't as good.
OTW Doc should have included a remastered Triumph/Destiny tour with unheared Live Audio. That would have made up for it lol. We know they recorded in HQ audio (Triumph Live album). Severely missed opportunity IMO. Future Docs should be packaged the same as Bad 25.Yeah Bad 25 was a okay. The Off The Wall documentary is time I will never get back though. His documentaries aren't really in depth enough for me. They are basically an hour of celebrities saying "MJ was great" and then some cool footage thrown in. Bad 25 was at least entertaining, I was actually scratching my head at how bad the OTW one was, though.
OTW Doc should have included a remastered Triumph/Destiny tour with unheared Live Audio. That would have made up for it lol. We know they recorded in HQ audio (Triumph Live album). Severely missed opportunity IMO.
Elvis has had remixes (A Little Less Conversation, Rubbernecking, etc.) and albums with Natalie Cole/Nat King Cole style overdubbed duets with modern artists and orchestras. Not only unreleased stuff released like they are. Also with classic rock acts like Elvis, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, & The Beatles, there's an audience who will buy CDs with multiple flubbed takes, alternate versions, and studio chatter. It doesn't have to be finished songs. Like The Beatles Anthology CD sets. That's not generally the case with other genres.They should have taken cues from how releases have been handled for other legacy artists like Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Elvis, etc, but they certainly don't seem like they have.
Still nothing about some sort of collectors label for Michael similar to the one Elvis has had since the late 90's. An avenue to keep the fans engaged and happy while making small profits and without having to worry about commercial viability.
Elvis has had remixes (A Little Less Conversation, Rubbernecking, etc.) and albums with Natalie Cole/Nat King Cole style overdubbed duets with modern artists and orchestras. Not only unreleased stuff released like they are. Also with classic rock acts like Elvis, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, & The Beatles, there's an audience who will buy CDs with multiple flubbed takes, alternate versions, and studio chatter. It doesn't have to be finished songs. Like The Beatles Anthology CD sets. That's not generally the case with other genres.
Yeah, I was at least expecting one full song from the Triumph tour in the doc...
If more people stream (or download) today than buy a physical product, that can't really run out, can it? Even if they let the albums go out of print, there's a lot of used copies on sale.The best idea that someone here already came up with was to let all currently circulated prints run out and then put out the albums as new special editions with outtakes, interviews, like in 2001.
To be honest, I'm not all that bothered about getting more new albums. They're nice, but it's not something I need to have. From now on, I'd be happy if any unreleased material shows up on any possible anniversary/special addition albums. The best ''new'' songs we heard, in my opinion was from BAD 25.
I dunno why there STILL isn't any Jacksons related content yet. I can't imagine its the brothers holding anything up.