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Michael Jackson was robbed.

HIStoric said:
That's such a weird counting system, re: the Elvis thing. It was the only in the past few years that I learnt that singles were a faaar bigger thing than albums, especially in the 50s/60s (in fact, to those of you who don't know, many artists back then released singles that didn't even appear on their main albums).



Yeah, around there. I saw some figures in 2013 indicating it was at 66.2 million.
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Do you recall where you read that figure of 66.2 million? It definitely sounds realistic.
 
I never understand the obsession with awards & stats...

We all know that Mike is one of the most decorated artists ever as well as having some of the biggest & important statistics such as biggest selling album of all tme & another 2 very close behind.

It's also a fact that if he had have been more prolific the his status as biggest seller ever would be without doubt.

Quite why it needs to be set in stone that he outsold the Beatles or on an even more trite level, why it's in any way important that 'Hold My Hand', a C rate song that he lent his vocalto gets 100mllion views on YouTube is beyond me.
 
I agree with the legacy being tainted by the accusations, though Michael's "image" would always have cost him with the US market in the 90s either way post-Dangerous I think. That's not to say his mid-90s follow up to Dangerous in a world without the allegations wouldn't have been another 30M+ seller.

750M records was always inflated in order to compare his sales to The Beatles to help back catalogue shipments. I will say I find it weird that Michael is placed behind Elvis in terms of overall sales - Michael was far more popular outside the Anglosphere compared to Elvis and with market differences between their respective eras I've yet to see any breakdown of sales that put Elvis Presley close to Michael's record sales.

The Beatles are by far the best-selling act. Even with continued huge success, I'm not sure Michael would have outdone them. He released albums far less frequently. I think touring was somewhere Michael could have been absolutely HUGE in the 2000s. He could have done stadiums in pretty much any country, and with Asian touring on the rise, he could have been the first act to have a billion-dollar grossing world tour.

For Thriller's sales, it's over 66M but below 69M I think. 67M seems probable. It annoys me that 100M records somehow became albums. Factoring in single sales and video sales of Thriller, I presume the ~104-110M figure is total records from Thriller.

By the way, MJDangerous is currently using total "era sales" to rank best-selling artists on his website chartmasters(dot)org. Basically it weighs albums, singles and streams to determine total album equivalents. He hasn't done Michael yet but confirmed he is on his list. His most recent breakdown of sales for Michael is on UKMix and included some posthumous sales, but is now outdated.
 
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MJMarty said:
I agree with the legacy being tainted by the accusations, though Michael's "image" would always have cost him with the US market in the 90s either way post-Dangerous I think. That's not to say his mid-90s follow up to Dangerous in a world without the allegations wouldn't have been another 30M+ seller.

750M records was always inflated in order to compare his sales to The Beatles to help back catalogue shipments. I will say I find it weird that Michael is placed behind Elvis in terms of overall sales - Michael was far more popular outside the Anglosphere compared to Elvis and with market differences between their respective eras I've yet to see any breakdown of sales that put Elvis Presley close to Michael's record sales.

The Beatles are by far the best-selling act. Even with continued huge success, I'm not sure Michael would have outdone them. He released albums far less frequently. I think touring was somewhere Michael could have been absolutely HUGE in the 2000s. He could have done stadiums in pretty much any country, and with Asian touring on the rise, he could have been the first act to have a billion-dollar grossing world tour.

For Thriller's sales, it's over 66M but below 69M I think. 67M seems probable. It annoys me that 100M records somehow became albums. Factoring in single sales and video sales of Thriller, I presume the ~104-110M figure is total records from Thriller.

By the way, MJDangerous is currently using total "era sales" to rank best-selling artists on his website chartmasters(dot)org. Basically it weighs albums, singles and streams to determine total album equivalents. He hasn't done Michael yet but confirmed he is on his list. His most recent breakdown of sales for Michael is on UKMix and included some posthumous sales, but is now outdated.
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Yeah, I figured the inflated claims are used by a lot, otherwise you'd hundreds of millions adrift giving a realistic figure. That and to make an artist out to be more impressive.

It's hard to break down Elvis' sales. He has so much released material. For example, at one stage, he had 200 albums unaccounted for by the RIAA due to them not having reached the minimum 500,000 sales. There's also ones sold at budget prices which don't qualify due to the low price.

In about 2000 or 2001 he had 20 albums released in the UK alone and none of them even entered the top 100! The sheer wealth of material most likely puts him ahead. There are constant, constant, releases.

The 100 million plus figure for Thriller comes from albums, singles, videos and other albums containing Thriller tracks. So HIStory's 19.5 million plus sales are added to Thriller's total. :smilerolleyes:

I also await MJD's MJ article. His articles are always an interesting read.
 
Some of MJD's older rankings for Michael from 2010:

Off The Wall
Minimum estimate worldwide: 18,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 20,000,000
Confirmed sales: 14,662,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 9,561,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 10,500,000 (9X Plat in USA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 4,121,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 5,600,000


Thriller
Minimum estimate worldwide: 65,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 65-100,000,000 (Sony still claim 100M)
Confirmed sales: 55,244,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 36,043,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 38,500,000 (30X Plat RIAA pure sales, 32X with streams)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 14,960,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 17,800,000

Bad
Minimum estimate worldwide: 34,500,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 35-45,000,000 (Sony claimed 45M in 2012)
Confirmed sale worldwide: 27,291,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 12,605,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 14,000,000 (9X Plat RIAA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 12,008,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 14,900,000

Dangerous
Minimum estimate worldwide: 29,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 32,000,000
Confirmed sales worldwide: 22,805,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 10,206,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 11,200,000 (7X Plat RIAA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 8,952,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 14,900,000

HIStory
Minimum estimate worldwide: 19,500,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 20,000,000 (No updated claim for years)
Confirmed sales worldwide: 15,602,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 5,306,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 6,000,000 (7X Multi-Plat RIAA [3.5M 2-disc shipments])
Confirmed sales (Europe): 7,532,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 9,000,000
Excludes HIStory: Vol I solo sales of 2,700,000 (minimum estimate worldwide)

Number Ones and The Essential Michael Jackson are such good catalog sellers that the numbers from MJD's stats from this period are way outdated now. I imagine Thriller's breakdown puts a WW minimum estimate over 67M now, too, and Bad's re-release should bump its total too.
 
Bad7 said:
It's hard to break down Elvis' sales. He has so much released material. For example, at one stage, he had 200 albums unaccounted for by the RIAA due to them not having reached the minimum 500,000 sales. There's also ones sold at budget prices which don't qualify due to the low price.

In about 2000 or 2001 he had 20 albums released in the UK alone! The sheer wealth of material most likely puts him ahead. There are constant, constant, releases.

The 100 million plus figure for Thriller comes from albums, singles, videos and other albums containing Thriller tracks. So HIStory's 19.5 million plus sales are added to Thriller's total. :smilerolleyes:

I also await MJD's MJ article. His articles are always an interesting read.
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I really want to see MJD's estimates for Michael's singles. Tracking is TERRIBLE for his biggest songs like Billie Jean, Beat It, Thriller, Black Or White, etc. Some of these are missing millions in certs from USA alone.

If anything, if its just the constant quantity of material, this shows how damn popular Michael's few studio releases are/were.
 
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IMO to settle the who sold most thing.
Considering that MJ, the Beatles, and Elvis all have inflated sales, but either way would be the three best sellers of all time even if their sales weren't inflated.
I'm not sure that Michael could have caught the Beatles, but he hands down could have been the best selling solo artist of all time had he released more albums.
Really, his comparatively low album output is the only thing that held him back from that.

Edit:And to anyone that's linked me to something don't think I'm ignoring y'all.
I'll check out the links when/if I have the time.
 
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MJMarty said:
Some of MJD's older rankings for Michael from 2010:

Off The Wall
Minimum estimate worldwide: 18,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 20,000,000
Confirmed sales: 14,662,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 9,561,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 10,500,000 (9X Plat in USA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 4,121,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 5,600,000


Thriller
Minimum estimate worldwide: 65,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 65-100,000,000 (Sony still claim 100M)
Confirmed sales: 55,244,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 36,043,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 38,500,000 (30X Plat RIAA pure sales, 32X with streams)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 14,960,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 17,800,000

Bad
Minimum estimate worldwide: 34,500,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 35-45,000,000 (Sony claimed 45M in 2012)
Confirmed sale worldwide: 27,291,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 12,605,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 14,000,000 (9X Plat RIAA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 12,008,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 14,900,000

Dangerous
Minimum estimate worldwide: 29,000,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 32,000,000
Confirmed sales worldwide: 22,805,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 10,206,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 11,200,000 (7X Plat RIAA)
Confirmed sales (Europe): 8,952,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 14,900,000

HIStory
Minimum estimate worldwide: 19,500,000
Claimed sales worldwide: 20,000,000 (No updated claim for years)
Confirmed sales worldwide: 15,602,000
Confirmed sales (Americas): 5,306,000
Minimum estimate (Americas): 6,000,000 (7X Multi-Plat RIAA [3.5M 2-disc shipments])
Confirmed sales (Europe): 7,532,000
Minimum estimate (Europe): 9,000,000
Excludes HIStory: Vol I solo sales of 2,700,000 (minimum estimate worldwide)

Number Ones and The Essential Michael Jackson are such good catalog sellers that the numbers from MJD's stats from this period are way outdated now. I imagine Thriller's breakdown puts a WW minimum estimate over 67M now, too, and Bad's re-release should bump its total too.
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Here is MJD's last list he put out: http://www.chartsinfrance.net/commu...ael-jacksons-sales-never-felt-so-good/page-26

Although Pierpinto's is more up to date here - http://chartbusters.forumfree.it/?t=60966251

A few takes on those figures you posted.

I don't think Sony have claimed Thriller sold over 100 million have they? It's the Estate who claimed that. Sony in 2009 claimed 70 million copies had shipped.

About Bad, the claim of over 45 million includes singles (not that they word it like that, though :smilerolleyes:). The album alone certainly didn't sell that much.

My personal estimations would be:

Off The Wall: 21 million.
Thriller: 67 million.
Bad: 34 million.
Dangerous: 31 million.
HIStory: 19.5 million.
Blood On The Dancefloor: 5 million.

MJD's very recent total for Invincible is 7.4 million. (The album featured in one of his articles about purported sales)

One thing is for sure, MJ is the best album seller ever (album to sales ratio). I assumed this some time ago and then saw an old post from MJD mention it. Of his six adult studio albums five feature in the top 100 greatest sellers ever.
 
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Pink Diamond Princess said:
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IMO to settle the who sold most thing.
I'm not sure Michael could have caught the Beatles, but he hands down could have been the best selling solo artist of all time had he released more albums.
Really, his comparatively low album output is the only thing that held him back from that.

Edit:And to anyone that's linked me to something don't think I'm ignoring y'all.
I'll check out the links when/if I have the time.
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Personally, I feel sales just can't be compared. There are so many differing factors.

Take this example:

100 New MJ fans, 100 new Elvis fans and 100 new Beatles fans are given a credit card each. They're told to go buy every single studio album by their new favourite artist. The result is that MJ fans only have ten studio albums to buy, therefore, despite there being an equal number of fans, MJ would come out last with the total number of albums purchased.

Another is totally different eras. I personally find comparisons of sales between artists to be pointless. There are too many factors involved such as, the state of the music market, the most popular format and current trends. Bing Crosby for example was in an era during the great depression and when the second World War began.

During Elvis' peak the most popular format was the single. During MJ's it was the album. Therefore a comparison is mute.

This might look like giant irony given my posts above :rofl:, but those weren't intended to be comparisons of sales. Just merely stating X sold more or less.

Above all that though is, sales don't equate to quality.

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One thing on catching The Beatles though, they hold a big advantage over both Elvis and MJ. They're a band. Meaning when John Lennon passed they saw extra sales, likewise for George Harrison. You also have Paul McCartney still doing concerts performing Beatles songs.

Still, take nothing away, I'm a Beatles fan, and their success was just sensational. Them and MJ were/are phenomenal sellers worldwide.
 
By the title I thought this was going to be about the 1988 Grammys, that's another story.

Of course Michael will never get the respect and recognition he deserves from certain music critics. In life, people love building people up and tearing them back down when they get too big (we as MJ fans know this all too well) but what sustains me as a fan is, you can say what you want about Michael but the man was blessed with a talented unseen before or since, that will continue to dominate the history books and influence the new generation.

In my humble opinion Michael was the greatest thing to ever happen to music, and I'm from Liverpool!!
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
By the title I thought this was going to be about the 1988 Grammys, that's another story.

Of course Michael will never get the respect and recognition he deserves from certain music critics. In life, people love building people up and tearing them back down when they get too big (we as MJ fans know this all too well) but what sustains me as a fan is, you can say what you want about Michael but the man was blessed with a talented unseen before or since, that will continue to dominate the history books and influence the new generation.

In my humble opinion Michael was the greatest thing to ever happen to music, and I'm from Liverpool!!
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He receive all time respect and recognition during the years of Thriller, by every major music publication in the country
 
SmoothCriminal1995 said:
Of course Michael will never get the respect and recognition he deserves from certain music critics. In life, people love building people up and tearing them back down when they get too big (we as MJ fans know this all too well) but what sustains me as a fan is, you can say what you want about Michael but the man was blessed with a talented unseen before or since, that will continue to dominate the history books and influence the new generation.
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This right here is lowkey the best comment in this thread.:)
 
HIStoric said:
The woman point is actually quite a good one. I see Facebook posts about males who rape minors and everyone is demanding their head on a pike. Flip the genders though, have the female rape the minors and you're faaaar more likely to see disgusting comments such as "Lucky guy!!! I can't see why he's complaining" "Wish I was him!" "She's hot! He should consider himself lucky ;)" etc, which is incredibly disgusting and contributes to the stigma that discourages so many male sexual abuse victims in coming out.

I mean, this is a whole 'nother topic and generally men do often get the better end of the stick when it comes to life, but it is something I've noticed.
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IKR.
When I see that mess it disgust me too.
Sexual abuse is sexual abuse regardless of what gender does it.
Some dumb backwards thinking people don't get that though.
 
No way are the sales claim for Michael, The Beatles and Elvis accurate. Beatles and Elvis certainly didn't sell anywhere near 1 billion and Michael didn't sell 750 million. I would the Beatles have sold around 500 million, Elvis 450 million and Michael the GOAT 400 million.
 
MJMarty said:
I really want to see MJD's estimates for Michael's singles. Tracking is TERRIBLE for his biggest songs like Billie Jean, Beat It, Thriller, Black Or White, etc. Some of these are missing millions in certs from USA alone.

If anything, if its just the constant quantity of material, this shows how damn popular Michael's few studio releases are/were.
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This 100%. MJ singles certifications need to be massively updates. According to the certifications, MJ doesn't have a single multiple platinum single in the US. All his singles are just platinum meaning that they have sold just 1 million. I believe songs like Billie Jean, Man In The Mirror, Thriller, Beat It, Black or White have sold way more than a million. They should at least be double or triple platinum.
 
Tony R said:
I never understand the obsession with awards & stats...

We all know that Mike is one of the most decorated artists ever as well as having some of the biggest & important statistics such as biggest selling album of all tme & another 2 very close behind.

It's also a fact that if he had have been more prolific the his status as biggest seller ever would be without doubt.

Quite why it needs to be set in stone that he outsold the Beatles or on an even more trite level, why it's in any way important that 'Hold My Hand', a C rate song that he lent his vocalto gets 100mllion views on YouTube is beyond me.
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I'm assuming it's because it was on a posthumous album. People just wanted to hear new Michael and didn't care much about the vocals?
 
Blue Criminal said:
This 100%. MJ singles certifications need to be massively updates. According to the certifications, MJ doesn't have a single multiple platinum single in the US. All his singles are just platinum meaning that they have sold just 1 million. I believe songs like Billie Jean, Man In The Mirror, Thriller, Beat It, Black or White have sold way more than a million. They should at least be double or triple platinum.
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Lot's of record companies just don't bother updating certifications. I wonder whether part of that is so they can continue to make inflated claims.

It seems Billie Jean was certified 2 x platinum in May 2013.
 
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Blue Criminal said:
This 100%. MJ singles certifications need to be massively updates. According to the certifications, MJ doesn't have a single multiple platinum single in the US. All his singles are just platinum meaning that they have sold just 1 million. I believe songs like Billie Jean, Man In The Mirror, Thriller, Beat It, Black or White have sold way more than a million. They should at least be double or triple platinum.
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I think that certs have to be paid for in some cases.
Maybe that's the hold up.
Honestly though IDK. *shrugs*
 
Bad7 said:
Lot's of record companies just don't bother updating certifications. I wonder whether part of that is so they can continue to make inflated claims.

The Thriller single has certainly sold more than a million. Its sold 4 million in digital sales alone. Perhaps it'll get certified this year what with the Thriller 3D project.

Edit: Wikipedia has both Billie Jean and Thriller down as certified 2 x platinum and 3 x platinum respectively.
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You are right. The last time I checked, it was just platinum for both songs. Still I think Billie Jean should be at least 3X or 4X platinum. And some songs such as Man In The Mirror, Bad, The Way You Make and Smooth Criminal and You Rock My World don't have a single certification. Not even a Gold (500,000 units) in America. I'm pretty sure all of those five songs have sold at least half a million copies and some definitely a million or maybe two in USA alone. MJ's record company need to stop being stingy and start paying for Michael's music to be accurately certified. I know the during Michael's times albums were more popular so he didn't have any 6X or 7X platinum singles in USA like we see with many of the current hit songs but still some of his songs are missing millions in certifications.
 
Bad7 said:
Lot's of record companies just don't bother updating certifications. I wonder whether part of that is so they can continue to make inflated claims.

The Thriller single has certainly sold more than a million. Its sold 4 million in digital sales alone. Perhaps it'll get certified this year what with the Thriller 3D project.

Edit: Wikipedia has both Billie Jean and Thriller down as certified 2 x platinum and 3 x platinum respectively.
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You are right. The last time I checked, it was just platinum for both songs. Still I think Billie Jean should be at least 3X or 4X platinum. And some songs such as Man In The Mirror, Bad, The Way You Make and Smooth Criminal and You Rock My World don't have a single certification. Not even a Gold (500,000 units) in America. I'm pretty sure all of those five songs have sold at least half a million copies and some definitely a million or maybe two in USA alone. MJ's record company need to stop being stingy and start paying for Michael's music to be accurately certified. I know the during Michael's times albums were more popular so he didn't have any 6X or 7X platinum singles in USA like we see with many of the current hit songs but still some of his songs are missing millions in certifications.
 
I agree that the allegations and the continued smearing of Michael’s reputation were despicable and he would have been much better off without them. But I think some perspective is needed. Of course if you focus on the negative stories in American/British tabloid media or disparaging pieces in some American (rock) music press it seems depressing but we have to keep in mind that only a minority of people read or take interest in these stories and they represent a very small proportion of ‘public opinion’. And yes maybe Michael does have more ‘haters’ than other music artists but committed haters number how many - a thousand? That’s insignificant compared to how many people enjoy his music. This is especially true when you consider how internationally popular Michael is - do you think many people in India, Africa or China read western tabloids?

I don’t think that the accusations did that much damage to the sales of his albums. Pretty much all of Michael’s albums (inc HIStory) are among the highest selling of all time. Of course without them, he may have released more music which may have meant that he had more sales and could have become the best-selling artist of all time. It’s clear that the Beatles and Elvis only have more sales than Michael because of their larger discography - on a per album basis Michael is much higher. But then we shouldn’t just focus on physical sales. Today physical sales across the board are falling massively and streaming has seen huge increases. And look at how good Michael’s streaming stats are: he is the top ‘classic’ artist on Youtube and Spotify. On Youtube he has streamed 5.33 billion since Sept 2014 compared to 2.06 billion for Elvis and 1.68 billion for the Beatles - Michael is on par with current top artists. Also on the worldwide iTunes album chart (a compilation of all country’s iTunes chart positions) since 2011, Michael is ranked 13th (again the top ‘classic’ artist) and if you look at his albums, like Number Ones, they have huge global penetration and chart in practically all countries. I have not seen that for the compilation albums of the Beatles, Elvis or Prince. And this is all years after Michael’s death so clearly he has peerless longevity (which IMO is more important than sales). Also, since Feb 2016 the RIAA has started to take into account video and audio streams when calculating album sales (1500 streams = 1 album) so there’s a chance Michael will surpass Elvis/Beatles in sales eventually (in term of certified sales, not the inflated 750 million/1 billion figures for all three).

I don’t believe the rock critics or music snobs would have liked Michael regardless. They didn’t like him because of the type and content of his music which doesn’t fit their ideals of great ‘art’. But in my view that’s not because Michael was inferior as an artist but because he wasn’t trying to make art only for the ideals of the ‘artist’ or recreation and scholarship of music enthusiasts but understood that the greater purpose of art is to influence and inspire people which is why his music communicates so many important messages.

It’s probably true that the allegations did significant damage to Michael’s image and maybe the respect from some quarters but his impact and legacy are so huge that I don’t think it matters. His impact/legacy is pretty much unparalleled by any artist in the last half century, certainly greater than Elvis and arguably greater than the Beatles too. I think there’s plenty of evidence to support this.

Michael has greater global recognition and popularity, as shown by Youtube/iTunes and also google search stats. He is probably the one of the most popular western pop stars in India and has influenced a whole generation of Bollywood stars, including Shah Rukh Khan, Amitabh Bachchan, Hrithik Roshan, Salman Khan, Sridevi Kapoor, Priyanka Chopra, etc who have all spoken about their admiration of Michael. The great Indian composer AR Rahman (with whom Michael collaborated) has often talked about how Michael inspired him and his music school even covered Xscape. Michael has also had huge influence on Asian musicians. The Chinese pianist Lang Lang (probably the biggest music star in China today) compared Michael’s genius to that of Mozart when asked about his opinion on the great modern musicians. And the Korean rapper Psy, when asked what America’s greatest export was, said: “First of all, the English language. And also pop music. A song like Michael Jackson’s Billie Jean, it's like the world's biggest, most universal language.” To quote Justin Bieber (I don’t agree with everything he says but I think he absolutely gets what Michael was about and has said some very insightful things about him), “in order to be on Michael’s level you have to reach as many people as Michael reached, and Kanye doesn’t reach as many people. No one really does.” That pretty much sums up what Michael was and still is to the world.

Michael’s legacy as an artist is also multifaceted, including both music and dance. Maybe not the music press, but I think he gets a lot of respect from today’s top artists. Beyoncé, Justin Timberlake, Usher, Justin Bieber, the Weeknd, Ed Sheeran, Kanye West, Madonna, Mariah Carey etc have all spoken about his influence and ranked him as the one of if not the best music artist ever - Bieber, West and the Weeknd are particularly vocal. Also Michael’s had a huge impact on the dance world and modern dance. He is quoted as an inspiration by great ballet dancers like Carlos Acosta and Darcey Bussell and praised by the likes of Mikhail Baryshnikov, Sylvie Guillem, Frank Sinatra, etc. When DWTS did a tribute to Michael in 2009, the pro dancer Louis van Amstel said: “It's really important to do this tribute because he pretty much opened doors, and I thank him for opening doors for all of us.” And that’s so true - Michael has been a driving force in the integration of music and dance in entertainment and the rising popularity of dance (inc shows like DWTS) over the world, and in doing so opened up so many doors and professional opportunities for dancers. Michael has even permeated into other artistic disciplines like figure skating. His music and style has been adopted in routines by many people including the great Russian skater Evgeni Plushenko, world champion Oksana Baiul, Olympic champions Tatiana Navka and Roman Kostomarov, etc.

Michael also has huge social and political influence. So many world leaders have spoken of his impact. Ali Bongo Ondimba, the current President of Gabon, said:

"Certainly there have been figures like Elvis Presley, bands like the Beatles ... But I think Michael Jackson really marked his era in the sense that he opened up the possibilities and the way for all black African artists And American artists ... he is the first artist who has established himself throughout the world, to all races, and he has proved that music has no borders."

Also the former President of Ghana, Jerry John Rawlings said:

“I once had the honour of meeting with Michael and we struck a great friendship borne out of respect. Michael changed the world and always knew that with change he would appeal to many across all borders even if some in the non musical media did not always appreciate it… He was human and so sensitive. The world has lost one of its greatest sons. Michael you made an impact and you changed the whole world in so many ways.”

Ali Hassan Mwinyi, former President of Tanzania, said Michael was “a legend that will forever remain etched in the memories of both young and old alike”, and Kim Dae Jung, the former president of South Korea and 2000 Nobel Peace laureate called him a “hero of the world” and “beloved friend of Korea”. We all know that Nelson Mandela paid a great tribute to Michael in 2009 and Desmond Tutu, when speaking to students in the US for Black History Month in 2011, singled Michael out as a role model and said that he symbolised limitless potential. And the reason why they all think so highly about Michael is because he truly had concern for the underprivileged people of the world. He travelled to these places, did humanitarian work, held benefit concerts, raised awareness of social issues, and devoted his time and money to help people.

To this day Michael’s music means so much to people. For example Man in the Mirror was sung at the 2009 Nobel Peace prize concert, We are the World was sung by a children’s choir for Pope Francis in a huge concert in front of St Peter’s Basilica, Heal the World was quoted by the President of Ghana when addressing the UN General Assembly and was sung at the opening ceremony of the International Criminal Court this year, They Don’t Care About Us has been sung in BLM protests internationally… Just which other artists can you say that about? Who else has music of such continuing impact and universality?

A great indicator of Michael’s colossal legacy is the fact that in 2014, the British Council, in a list of the 80 most important moments of the last 80 years placed at #49:

The influence of the life and music of the American singer Michael Jackson, 1958-2009

There are no Beatles or Elvis on the list, or any other music artist for that matter. Michael is in the company of the likes of Martin Luther King, Ghandi and Nelson Mandela. And I think that illustrates the key point. Michael, Elvis, the Beatles, Prince, David Bowie, etc are all great artists but beyond that Michael was also a great man - someone who will be remembered as one of the great men of the 20th century. Because he was a pioneer of the modern concept of ‘public life’, of a celebrity as an activist, philanthropist, humanitarian, and for so many people across the world, Michael is the embodiment of Western popular music, and its representation of liberalism and the spirit of creativity.

On a final note, whilst we all wish that Michael had a simpler and happier life, the adversities that he faced were key in shaping the person that he was. I think that it is the depth of a person and tragedy that speak most strongly to the heart and soul of people and through which people identify with others. That’s the reason that, for example, Snape is often voted the favourite character in the Harry Potter series. So I think we should be happy that Michael lived an extraordinary life and had such an incredible impact on humanity. I don’t think he would have been disappointed in his legacy. I’m sorry this turned out to be such an essay but Michael’s legacy is something I also feel really strongly about and I think there’s so much positive here that we should focus on.
 
KatrinaXP;4180722 said:
I agree that the allegations and the continued smearing of Michael’s reputation were despicable and he would have been much better off without them. But I think some perspective is needed. Of course if you focus on the negative stories in American/British tabloid media or disparaging pieces in some American (rock) music press it seems depressing but we have to keep in mind that only a minority of people read or take interest in these stories and they represent a very small proportion of ‘public opinion’. And yes maybe Michael does have more ‘haters’ than other music artists but committed haters number how many - a thousand? That’s insignificant compared to how many people enjoy his music. This is especially true when you consider how internationally popular Michael is - do you think many people in India, Africa or China read western tabloids?

I don’t think that the accusations did that much damage to the sales of his albums. Pretty much all of Michael’s albums (inc HIStory) are among the highest selling of all time. Of course without them, he may have released more music which may have meant that he had more sales and could have become the best-selling artist of all time. It’s clear that the Beatles and Elvis only have more sales than Michael because of their larger discography - on a per album basis Michael is much higher. But then we shouldn’t just focus on physical sales. Today physical sales across the board are falling massively and streaming has seen huge increases. And look at how good Michael’s streaming stats are: he is the top ‘classic’ artist on Youtube and Spotify. On Youtube he has streamed 5.33 billion since Sept 2014 compared to 2.06 billion for Elvis and 1.68 billion for the Beatles - Michael is on par with current top artists. Also on the worldwide iTunes album chart (a compilation of all country’s iTunes chart positions) since 2011, Michael is ranked 13th (again the top ‘classic’ artist) and if you look at his albums, like Number Ones, they have huge global penetration and chart in practically all countries. I have not seen that for the compilation albums of the Beatles, Elvis or Prince. And this is all years after Michael’s death so clearly he has peerless longevity (which IMO is more important than sales). Also, since Feb 2016 the RIAA has started to take into account video and audio streams when calculating album sales (1500 streams = 1 album) so there’s a chance Michael will surpass Elvis/Beatles in sales eventually (in term of certified sales, not the inflated 750 million/1 billion figures for all three).

I don’t believe the rock critics or music snobs would have liked Michael regardless. They didn’t like him because of the type and content of his music which doesn’t fit their ideals of great ‘art’. But in my view that’s not because Michael was inferior as an artist but because he wasn’t trying to make art only for the ideals of the ‘artist’ or recreation and scholarship of music enthusiasts but understood that the greater purpose of art is to influence and inspire people which is why his music communicates so many important messages.

It’s probably true that the allegations did significant damage to Michael’s image and maybe the respect from some quarters but his impact and legacy are so huge that I don’t think it matters. His impact/legacy is pretty much unparalleled by any artist in the last half century, certainly greater than Elvis and arguably greater than the Beatles too. I think there’s plenty of evidence to support this.

Michael has greater global recognition and popularity, as shown by Youtube/iTunes and also google search stats. He is probably the one of the most popular western pop stars in India and has influenced a whole generation of Bollywood stars, including Shah Rukh Khan, Amitabh Bachchan, Hrithik Roshan, Salman Khan, Sridevi Kapoor, Priyanka Chopra, etc who have all spoken about their admiration of Michael. The great Indian composer AR Rahman (with whom Michael collaborated) has often talked about how Michael inspired him and his music school even covered Xscape. Michael has also had huge influence on Asian musicians. The Chinese pianist Lang Lang (probably the biggest music star in China today) compared Michael’s genius to that of Mozart when asked about his opinion on the great modern musicians. And the Korean rapper Psy, when asked what America’s greatest export was, said: “First of all, the English language. And also pop music. A song like Michael Jackson’s Billie Jean, it's like the world's biggest, most universal language.” To quote Justin Bieber (I don’t agree with everything he says but I think he absolutely gets what Michael was about and has said some very insightful things about him), “in order to be on Michael’s level you have to reach as many people as Michael reached, and Kanye doesn’t reach as many people. No one really does.” That pretty much sums up what Michael was and still is to the world.

Michael’s legacy as an artist is also multifaceted, including both music and dance. Maybe not the music press, but I think he gets a lot of respect from today’s top artists. Beyoncé, Justin Timberlake, Usher, Justin Bieber, the Weeknd, Ed Sheeran, Kanye West, Madonna, Mariah Carey etc have all spoken about his influence and ranked him as the one of if not the best music artist ever - Bieber, West and the Weeknd are particularly vocal. Also Michael’s had a huge impact on the dance world and modern dance. He is quoted as an inspiration by great ballet dancers like Carlos Acosta and Darcey Bussell and praised by the likes of Mikhail Baryshnikov, Sylvie Guillem, Frank Sinatra, etc. When DWTS did a tribute to Michael in 2009, the pro dancer Louis van Amstel said: “It's really important to do this tribute because he pretty much opened doors, and I thank him for opening doors for all of us.” And that’s so true - Michael has been a driving force in the integration of music and dance in entertainment and the rising popularity of dance (inc shows like DWTS) over the world, and in doing so opened up so many doors and professional opportunities for dancers. Michael has even permeated into other artistic disciplines like figure skating. His music and style has been adopted in routines by many people including the great Russian skater Evgeni Plushenko, world champion Oksana Baiul, Olympic champions Tatiana Navka and Roman Kostomarov, etc.

Michael also has huge social and political influence. So many world leaders have spoken of his impact. Ali Bongo Ondimba, the current President of Gabon, said:

"Certainly there have been figures like Elvis Presley, bands like the Beatles ... But I think Michael Jackson really marked his era in the sense that he opened up the possibilities and the way for all black African artists And American artists ... he is the first artist who has established himself throughout the world, to all races, and he has proved that music has no borders."

Also the former President of Ghana, Jerry John Rawlings said:

“I once had the honour of meeting with Michael and we struck a great friendship borne out of respect. Michael changed the world and always knew that with change he would appeal to many across all borders even if some in the non musical media did not always appreciate it… He was human and so sensitive. The world has lost one of its greatest sons. Michael you made an impact and you changed the whole world in so many ways.”

Ali Hassan Mwinyi, former President of Tanzania, said Michael was “a legend that will forever remain etched in the memories of both young and old alike”, and Kim Dae Jung, the former president of South Korea and 2000 Nobel Peace laureate called him a “hero of the world” and “beloved friend of Korea”. We all know that Nelson Mandela paid a great tribute to Michael in 2009 and Desmond Tutu, when speaking to students in the US for Black History Month in 2011, singled Michael out as a role model and said that he symbolised limitless potential. And the reason why they all think so highly about Michael is because he truly had concern for the underprivileged people of the world. He travelled to these places, did humanitarian work, held benefit concerts, raised awareness of social issues, and devoted his time and money to help people.

To this day Michael’s music means so much to people. For example Man in the Mirror was sung at the 2009 Nobel Peace prize concert, We are the World was sung by a children’s choir for Pope Francis in a huge concert in front of St Peter’s Basilica, Heal the World was quoted by the President of Ghana when addressing the UN General Assembly and was sung at the opening ceremony of the International Criminal Court this year, They Don’t Care About Us has been sung in BLM protests internationally… Just which other artists can you say that about? Who else has music of such continuing impact and universality?

A great indicator of Michael’s colossal legacy is the fact that in 2014, the British Council, in a list of the 80 most important moments of the last 80 years placed at #49:

The influence of the life and music of the American singer Michael Jackson, 1958-2009

There are no Beatles or Elvis on the list, or any other music artist for that matter. Michael is in the company of the likes of Martin Luther King, Ghandi and Nelson Mandela. And I think that illustrates the key point. Michael, Elvis, the Beatles, Prince, David Bowie, etc are all great artists but beyond that Michael was also a great man - someone who will be remembered as one of the great men of the 20th century. Because he was a pioneer of the modern concept of ‘public life’, of a celebrity as an activist, philanthropist, humanitarian, and for so many people across the world, Michael is the embodiment of Western popular music, and its representation of liberalism and the spirit of creativity.

On a final note, whilst we all wish that Michael had a simpler and happier life, the adversities that he faced were key in shaping the person that he was. I think that it is the depth of a person and tragedy that speak most strongly to the heart and soul of people and through which people identify with others. That’s the reason that, for example, Snape is often voted the favourite character in the Harry Potter series. So I think we should be happy that Michael lived an extraordinary life and had such an incredible impact on humanity. I don’t think he would have been disappointed in his legacy. I’m sorry this turned out to be such an essay but Michael’s legacy is something I also feel really strongly about and I think there’s so much positive here that we should focus on.
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Haha. No issue with the length I enjoyed every minute of it, and I actually learned a lot! I didn't know that around the world he had such an impact... Even a bigger impact worldwide than The Beatles and Elvis IMO. 😁
 
Amazing post.

KatrinaXP;4180722 said:
I have not seen that for the compilation albums of the Beatles, Elvis or Prince. And this is all years after Michael’s death so clearly he has peerless longevity (which IMO is more important than sales). Also, since Feb 2016 the RIAA has started to take into account video and audio streams when calculating album sales (1500 streams = 1 album) so there’s a chance Michael will surpass Elvis/Beatles in sales eventually (in term of certified sales, not the inflated 750 million/1 billion figures for all three).
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For streaming, definitely Prince (because of his legacy-killing restrictions) and perhaps Elvis (he seems to currently be enjoying a small boost from Christmas but generally he's behind the MJ and The Beatles on Spotify), though I'm not so sure about The Beatles. They still regularly do well on Spotify (especially considering they've only been on there for a year, if I look at their play counts). Don't get me wrong, Michaels still outdoing them in streaming stats but if he's going to outdo them through there, it's going to be a loooooong time.

I think if you also want to talk longevity (and bring in compilation albums), Michael isn't the only one with serious competition, The Beatles clearly have it. All their music came out between 1962 and 1970. Over 30 years later in 2000, they released their compilation 1, it went on to sell over 32 million copies, top the charts worldwide (literally 19 charts at #1 alone) and was even announced as not only the second best selling album of the 2000s worldwide, but also the best selling album in the USA for the 2000s. Behind Adele's 21 and Eminem's TMMLP, it remains the third best selling album of the 21st century worldwide - despite being 30-40 years after the material was released. That is phenomenally good for music of that age and is a fantastic show of their longevity. In the 2010s, upon being reissued in 2011/2015 (with no new material mind you), the album has re-entered the Top 5 in charts of about 8 countries overall, and 14 countries overall with the top ten.

Michaels streaming is a more modern example and it's not to take anything from his incredible achievements (he is, after all, up there with modern artists in streaming stats), but it goes to show he's not the only one with longevity.
 
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HIStoric said:
Amazing post.



For streaming, definitely Prince (because of his legacy-killing restrictions) and perhaps Elvis (he seems to currently be enjoying a small boost from Christmas but generally he's behind the MJ and The Beatles on Spotify), though I'm not so sure about The Beatles. They still regularly do well on Spotify (especially considering they've only been on there for a year, if I look at their play counts). Don't get me wrong, Michaels still outdoing them in streaming stats but if he's going to outdo them through there, it's going to be a loooooong time.

I think if you also want to talk longevity (and bring in compilation albums), Michael isn't the only one with serious competition, The Beatles clearly have it. All their music came out between 1962 and 1970. Over 30 years later in 2000, they released their compilation 1, it went on to sell over 32 million copies, top the charts worldwide (literally 19 charts at #1 alone) and was even announced as not only the second best selling album of the 2000s worldwide, but also the best selling album in the USA for the 2000s. Behind Adele's 21 and Eminem's TMMLP, it remains the third best selling album of the 21st century worldwide - despite being 30-40 years after the material was released. That is phenomenally good for music of that age and is a fantastic show of their longevity. In the 2010s, upon being reissued in 2011/2015 (with no new material mind you), the album has re-entered the Top 5 in charts of about 8 countries overall, and 14 countries overall with the top ten.

Michaels streaming is a more modern example and it's not to take anything from his incredible achievements (he is, after all, up there with modern artists in streaming stats), but it goes to show he's not the only one with longevity.
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Oh absolutely, I agree that the Beatles have amazing longevity as well especially when as you say you take into account they were much earlier than Michael then their performance in the 2000s is hugely impressive. I mostly got my figures from looking at international iTunes charts currently (as in the last few months) which indicates that Michael's Number Ones is doing better than the Beatles' 1 especially outside US/UK. And Number Ones was released in 2003 so it's pretty old as well. But I wouldn't take anything away from the Beatles - I think both Michael and the Beatles are phenomenal and are objectively the greatest modern music artists.

I would say that Michael may overtake Elvis (who he's like 30 million units behind I think) but has a very slim chance to overtake the Beatles (I wouldn't bet on it). What gives me hope is that the RIAA are including Youtube and Vevo streams now and Michael does several fold better than Beatles/Elvis there...but we'll see. At the end of the day it's all a trade off - I mean the Beatles restrict their music availability on Youtube to maximise their audio streams and sales (which they do very well in). But that's why it makes me really glad that Michael does so well on all platforms.
 
KatrinaXP said:
Oh absolutely, I agree that the Beatles have amazing longevity as well especially when as you say you take into account they were much earlier than Michael then their performance in the 2000s is hugely impressive. I mostly got my figures from looking at international iTunes charts currently (as in the last few months) which indicates that Michael's Number Ones is doing better than the Beatles' 1 especially outside US/UK. And Number Ones was released in 2003 so it's pretty old as well. But I wouldn't take anything away from the Beatles - I think both Michael and the Beatles are phenomenal and are objectively the greatest modern music artists.

I would say that Michael may overtake Elvis (who he's like 30 million units behind I think) but has a very slim chance to overtake the Beatles (I wouldn't bet on it). What gives me hope is that the RIAA are including Youtube and Vevo streams now and Michael does several fold better than Beatles/Elvis there...but we'll see. At the end of the day it's all a trade off - I mean the Beatles restrict their music availability on Youtube to maximise their audio streams and sales (which they do very well in). But that's why it makes me really glad that Michael does so well on all platforms.
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Oh absolutely, to me Michael Jackson and The Beatles are the two greatest music artists of all time. I'm not usually one to fret over the specific details, like who topped what list or who did what better (minus some of the general stuff that I read on here and look up in response), as a big fan of both I'm just content knowing that either one tends to be the one topping whatever list :p

I don't think by this point anything's going to change much (like if Michael did overtake Elvis' sales, I don't think it'd change that much in the grand scheme of things honestly). Both MJ and The Beatles have areas/aspects where one is better than the other but at the end of the day, nothings going to change the fact that they are both going to go down amongst the most enduring music artists of all time. We're already seeing the proof. It's like that quote Michael said, paraphrasing, great music is immortal and we still listen to greats such as Mozart today. :)
 
KatrinaXP said:
Oh absolutely, I agree that the Beatles have amazing longevity as well especially when as you say you take into account they were much earlier than Michael then their performance in the 2000s is hugely impressive. I mostly got my figures from looking at international iTunes charts currently (as in the last few months) which indicates that Michael's Number Ones is doing better than the Beatles' 1 especially outside US/UK. And Number Ones was released in 2003 so it's pretty old as well. But I wouldn't take anything away from the Beatles - I think both Michael and the Beatles are phenomenal and are objectively the greatest modern music artists.
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Let's not forget that Number Ones is just one of at least 3-4 albums by MJ that regulraly chart. Including another compilation The Essential. Plus 2-3 studio albums (Bad and Thriller, and this year Off The Wall joined as well). I don't think any other classic act really has that.

HIStoric said:
I'm not so sure about The Beatles. They still regularly do well on Spotify (especially considering they've only been on there for a year, if I look at their play counts).
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Being relatively new on Spotify is not a disadvantage for them but a huge advantage, considering all the media and Spotify hype and push they got when they first got on Spotify. All the ads on Spotify, the million playlists Spotify created with their music and all the media articles promoting their getting on Spotify - that was surely pushing their streams and not putting them at a disadvantage compared to artists who are there for longer and frankly never got this treatment by Spotify.

And if we talk about streams in general Spotify isn't that big anyway in comparation with YouTube.
 
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respect77 said:
Being relatively new on Spotify is not a disadvantage for them but a huge advantage, considering all the media and Spotify hype and push they got when they first got on Spotify. All the ads on Spotify, the million playlists Spotify created with their music and all the media articles promoting their getting on Spotify - that was surely pushing their streams and not putting them at a disadvantage compared to artists who are there for longer and frankly never got this treatment by Spotify.
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Of course it's a disadvantage, Spotify has been huge since at least 2011/2012, so they haven't had the time to build up their streams counts as much as anyone else. They did get a lot of promotion and media upon joining (and rightly so, they are one of the last huge artists to finally join streaming) so that definitely did play a part in the beginning, but after the first short while it's been all on them. All services combined, they were streamed over two billion times in 2016.

respect77 said:
the million playlists Spotify created with their music
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Keep in mind that as Michael's music has been on Spotify since around 2008/2009, that means his music would be on far more playlists than The Beatles. Think of all the playlists created between then and the end of 2015. A good number of them wouldn't have been updated by their various creators but continue to be played by those who follow said playlists.
 
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