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Michael's Vocals?

respect77 said:
I noticed that whenever fans deal with something themselves or read about something they love to come here and then project that all onto MJ and diagnose him with that. I think people should be a bit more careful with this armchair diagnosing MJ with all kind of conditions.

I don't think MJ's change of voice over the years is anything spectacular in terms of that you have to diagnose him with some sort of condition rather than it being the perfectly natural process of ageing. While his voice deepened it is not like he became Barry White. That he was able to hit higher notes in his early 20s than in his 40s is a perfectly natural process. Facial hair becoming more and stronger over the years is too. But again it is not like MJ ever became this very hairy dude. So to me there is no reason to armchair diagnose him with sort of hormonal disorder.
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I don't know If believe in the hormonal stuff to be quite honest but if one just looks at it objectively, in 1984 MJ could still hit the very high notes like he did on the thriller album, come 1988/89 he could no longer hit those notes.*

We're not talking about a gradual change that took 10-15 years but it rather happened "over night" in just the span of 4-5 years. both Bruce Swedien and Brad said that MJ freaked out and was devastated when he couldn't sing the high notes on keep the faith.

I believe it was more than just natural aging but I've been very careful to not use the word decline as in his voice declined because he lost his ability to hit some really high notes. Imo it became more nuanced throughout the years as it
matured as he was able to use his voice in different ways.*
 
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Themidwestcowboy said:
I don't know If believe in the hormonal stuff to be quite honest but if just one looks at it objectively, in 1984 MJ could still hit the very high notes like he did on the thriller album, come 1988/89 he could no longer hit those notes.*

We're not talking about a gradual change that took 10-15 years but it rather happened "over night" in just the span of 4-5 years. both Bruce Swedien and Brad said that MJ freaked out and was devastated when he couldn't sing the high notes on keep the faith.

I believe it was more than just natural aging but I've been very careful to not use the word decline as in his voice declined because he lost his ability to hit some really high notes. Imo it became more nuanced through the years as it
matured as he was able to use his voice in different ways.*
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Oh wow, that's crazy to think Michael may not have been happy with it because the song turned out great to me, and is one of my fave inspirational songs to listen to.:D

Whatever problem he had must've been fixed by the time TII happened though because on the parts of TII where it's really him singing and not edited vocals he's hitting some pretty darn high notes.:yes:

He also sings ITC (a song that required a good amount of high notes) for the same album that Keep The Faith is on, although I know that recording an album takes quite a bit of time and things can happen in that time.
IMO he even sings some really good high notes on Invincible (on Butterflies for example).
 
Pink Diamond Princess said:
Oh wow, that's crazy to think Michael may not have been happy with it because the song turned out great to me, and is one of my fave inspirational songs to listen to.:D

Whatever problem he had must've been fixed by the time TII happened though because on the parts of TII where it's really him singing and not edited vocals he's hitting some pretty darn high notes.:yes:

He also sings ITC (a song that required a good amount of high notes) for the same album that Keep The Faith is on, although I know that recording an album takes quite a bit of time and things can happen in that time.
IMO he even sings some really good high notes on Invincible (on Butterflies for example).
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They had to lower the pitch for Keep The Faith and that version with the lower pitch is what ended up on the album. Yeah right? Keep the faith is incredible and the dangerous album and his vocal performance on that album is my absolute favorite performance from him.

Yeah for sure, I mean of course he still could sing very high for a tenor, his voice was very unique, but that really, really high chest/headvoice (WBSS) was lost somewhere after 84. I think he was such a genius in the way that he adapted his changing voice for different songs. He made it seem so effortless.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
They had to lower the pitch for Keep The Faith and that version with the lower pitch is what ended up on the album. Yeah right? Keep the faith is incredible and the dangerous album and his vocal performance on that album is my absolute favorite performance from him.

Yeah for sure, I mean of course he still could sing very high for a tenor, his voice was very unique, but that really, really high chest/headvoice (WBSS) was lost somewhere after 84.I think he was such a genius in the way that he adapted his changing voice for different songs. He made it seem so effortless.
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One of the reasons I myself love Michael's music so much is because he could change and adapt so easily to different genres and song styles.
His catalogue offers a lot of variety.:)
 
respect77 said:
I noticed that whenever fans deal with something themselves or read about something they love to come here and then project that all onto MJ and diagnose him with that. I think people should be a bit more careful with this armchair diagnosing MJ with all kind of conditions.

I don't think MJ's change of voice over the years is anything spectacular in terms of that you have to diagnose him with some sort of condition rather than it being the perfectly natural process of ageing. While his voice deepened it is not like he became Barry White. That he was able to hit higher notes in his early 20s than in his 40s is a perfectly natural process. Facial hair becoming more and stronger over the years is too. But again it is not like MJ ever became this very hairy dude. So to me there is no reason to armchair diagnose him with sort of hormonal disorder.
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Respect, with all do respect. Wouldn't someone that has experience with something have viable knowledge to put input into a conversation? I did not diagnose Michael with any hormone disorder, but we do know he had 2 immune disorders which DO have cause & effect relationship. That's not an opinion!

It's shame when someone has some input that is different than the "norm", becomes singled out.. Just because I did not jump on the same bandwagon reason as most fans.

I stated my personal belief, you can agree or disagree but you cannot try to make it not viable just because you don't agree. I at least back my theory up with science!! That is more than many opinionated comments that are 'accepted'.

(not stating against your belief, just a general comment about how many speak)
 
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respect77 said:
On the other hand his vocals on the Bad Tour were much better than on the Victory Tour. Let's not forget that. So I do not agree with this "decline" opinion. Maybe between that he just applied different vocal training methods than before which made him win in some areas and lose some in others.
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That is subjective. Imo I think his voice was more flexible on the victory tour. He still sang songs in their original key and did it perfectly. WBSS wasn't strained as it became on the bad tour and he was improvising more and doing more soulfoul singing as he had done on every jacksons tour prior to that. I do think he perfected dancing and singing at the same time on the bad tour (especially the 87 leg, my favorite).

Well I'm not the one calling it a decline but it is what it is. Maybe it wasn't clear with my post but I refuted the notion that his voice declined just because he lost some range because as his voice matured it became nuanced and more colorfol. With that being said Seth Riggs and many others of his collaborators always commented on how Michael always wanted to sing higher and higher. I personally don't think MJ would sacrifice a part in his upper range for something else.
 
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respect77 said:
In that other thread you say his voice changed more in his mid 20s than 10s. I am sorry but that is not true. Do you really think his voice was changed between Thriller and Bad more than between Music and Me and Destiny? Do you think that between Music and Me and Destiny his voice did not go through puberty and his puberty was delayed until Thriller-Bad?
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Thanks-I admit this and that other thread have somewhat thrown me. I never thought once he grew up and developed his adult voice (around 77-79) Michael's voice had changed within that 5 year period-after Thriller and during Bad/Thriller. Especially not with Bad.
If anything sounded different, it was just the songs were different-ESPECIALLY with Dangerous-more percussive, more talky, more spit the lyrics out-but I attribute that to different genres-funk, NJS, rock and the subject matter. It was just the way of expressing the emotion of the song. And he's brilliant at that.

And speaking of high notes, didn't he say in Moonwalk that he couldn't sustain the high notes in DSTYGE-that's why Quincy had the music just take over at the end. Love that-you can't tell where he leaves off and the music takes it over.
 
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Yes his voice changed. Everyones voice changes through the years.

You're not going to sound like you did when you were 25 compared to 45. It's just part of nature.
 
respect77 said:
Well, indeed subjective and you can say that to you he sounded better on Victory tour but I think most fans consider his Bad Tour vocals better (including me). That's based on past conversations here and on other MJ forums where a lot of people stated that.
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Well I've talked to fans that prefer Michael's vocals on victory so it's not only me. Some people like it because they sound more like the studio version, just as there are people that like his vocals more on thriller than on dangerous and some like his off the wall vocals more than bad.


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His voice definitely changed over the years. By the time Dangerous tour came around he was told by doctors he could either sing live or sing in studio, not both. His voice was degrading as time went on. An unfortunate effect off the "gritty" voice he often used. It isn't good for the vocal cords at all. Personally I think his voice sounded great most of the time, the only time the decline was obvious was on Invincible imo. It was so strained and seemed like he was really trying to sing instead of the effortless feeling I usually get when I hear him. Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again, but This Is It should never be used as a reference point when referring to MJ's condition. Any live vocals that are actually in the movie are pitch adjusted and steeped in reverb, I'm pretty sure vocals have been cut together from several different rehearsals so you're not even hearing or seeing a complete rehearsal in that film.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
His voice definitely changed over the years. By the time Dangerous tour came around he was told by doctors he could either sing live or sing in studio, not both. His voice was degrading as time went on. An unfortunate effect off the "gritty" voice he often used. It isn't good for the vocal cords at all. Personally I think his voice sounded great most of the time, the only time the decline was obvious was on Invincible imo. It was so strained and seemed like he was really trying to sing instead of the effortless feeling I usually get when I hear him. Also, I've said this before and I'll say it again, but This Is It should never be used as a reference point when referring to MJ's condition. Any live vocals that are actually in the movie are pitch adjusted and steeped in reverb, I'm pretty sure vocals have been cut together from several different rehearsals so you're not even hearing or seeing a complete rehearsal in that film.
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I don't think that's true at all. There are Death metal and heavy rock singers who do that style for a living and some have done it for over 30+ years. That's why you have a vocal coach. You're not singing from the throat but rather from the diaphragm. If you sing properly with the right technique you can sing any style without it hurting your voice. Michael regularly practiced Speech Level Singing with Seth Riggs, whether he sang in the studio or in concert.
 
Themidwestcowboy said:
I don't think that's true at all. There are Death metal and heavy rock singers who do that style for a living and some have done it for over 30+ years. That's why you have a vocal coach. You're not singing from the throat but rather from the diaphragm. If you sing properly with the right technique you can sing any style without it hurting your voice. Michael regularly practiced Speech Level Singing with Seth Riggs, whether he sang in the studio or in concert.
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If you don't do it properly and just Scream it can ruin your voice pretty quickly. Evidently MJ wasn't doing it properly, or his voice wouldn't have been affected.
 
SmoothGangsta said:
If you don't do it properly and just Scream it can ruin your voice pretty quickly. Evidently MJ wasn't doing it properly, or his voice wouldn't have been affected.
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But Quincy got him with Seth Riggs as they were preparing "Off the Wall" and he stayed with him the rest of his life-many collaborators have talked about how Michael would practice scales and warm ups for hours before recording or going on stage-even if he was hardly recording anything.

I can understand, as someone said, a change in your voice between 25 and 45-but your voice changing for the worse in a five year period?? I don't hear it.
 
respect77 said:
On the other hand his vocals on the Bad Tour were much better than on the Victory Tour. Let's not forget that. So I do not agree with this "decline" opinion. Maybe between that he just applied different vocal training methods than before which made him win in some areas and lose some in others.
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barbee0715 said:
Thanks-I admit this and that other thread have somewhat thrown me. I never thought once he grew up and developed his adult voice (around 77-79) Michael's voice had changed within that 5 year period-after Thriller and during Bad/Thriller. Especially not with Bad.
If anything sounded different, it was just the songs were different-ESPECIALLY with Dangerous-more percussive, more talky, more spit the lyrics out-but I attribute that to different genres-funk, NJS, rock and the subject matter. It was just the way of expressing the emotion of the song. And he's brilliant at that.

And speaking of high notes, didn't he say in Moonwalk that he couldn't sustain the high notes in DSTYGE-that's why Quincy had the music just take over at the end. Love that-you can't tell where he leaves off and the music takes it over.
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I agree.
I personally didn't hear this drastic change.
Once Michael grew into his adult voice from that point on he just seemed to just find different creative ways to use that voice.
I've also never viewed any change in his voice as degradation or decline, I've always just seen it as him sounding a bit different from song to song or album to album to go along with the particular song/album and to make the song/album sound different then his others.
Personally I would hate it had his voice stayed exactly the same for the bulk of or all of his songs once he became an adult.
That would have been boring.:lol:
 
Definitely I can see 4 major periods. (Some sample songs in brackets)

1. Young Michael 1968 - 1973 - Child voice you hear on J5 and early recordings (I want you back, Ben, ABC, Never can say goodbye)
2. Adolescence 1973 - 1976 - Moving towards a deeper adult voice, still gentle and shrill, but already with more warmth than his child voice (I am love, 4ever came 2day, Dancing Machine)
3. Young Adult (Jacksons to Thriller) - Adult sounding, but still high pitched and soft. Still perfect (Show you the way to go, Rock with you, Human nature)
4. Mature adult (Bad to Thriller25/Michael) - Singing with soft and deeper voice, more growls, Michael singing ad libs and doing his Aowww!!!! a lot more. Easily his best voice, but also adopting a beautiful baritone/tenor for the ballads. Pretty much any song on Bad through to Invincible. Some of his best singing is even on Invincible and BODF (Best songs - TWYMF, Who Is it, Stranger in Moscow, Ghosts, Is it scary, You are not Alone, Break of Dawn, Speechless)
 
I have never thought his voice sounded bad or anything.

It changed a little over the years. - All voices do.

But vocals on Is It Scary, Morphine, Speechless and Butterflies are perfect IMO. - I think his vocals are perfect in all his songs actually. Never off key, fits the song etc. etc.

Live there is a bigger difference. - He sounded hoarse and strained during HIStory tour. - but for the live singing in MSG 30th - it sounded great. And This Is It sounded great for the live parts. Human Nature, WBSS, J5, IJCSLY, BoW and Beat It - mostly live (even though Beat It has some earlier tour vocals mixed in I think) sounds great.

And the little part he did of Speechless sounded great too.
 
Hess said:
I have never thought his voice sounded bad or anything.

It changed a little over the years. - All voices do.

But vocals on Is It Scary, Morphine, Speechless and Butterflies are perfect IMO. - I think his vocals are perfect in all his songs actually. Never off key, fits the song etc. etc.

Live there is a bigger difference. - He sounded hoarse and strained during HIStory tour. - but for the live singing in MSG 30th - it sounded great. And This Is It sounded great for the live parts. Human Nature, WBSS, J5, IJCSLY, BoW and Beat It - mostly live (even though Beat It has some earlier tour vocals mixed in I think) sounds great.

And the little part he did of Speechless sounded great too.
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Well, the MSG 30th performances were dubbed vocals.
His live vocals were strained.
 
chris123678 said:
Well, the MSG 30th performances were dubbed vocals.
His live vocals were strained.
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Yeah his vocals weren't really that great at MSG. They were better than they were at History tour but it was the first time ever where he was outsung by his brothers imo.
 
chris123678 said:
Well, the MSG 30th performances were dubbed vocals.
His live vocals were strained.
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Is there a version where I can hear his vocals where they are not dubbed? - Always thought the live singing with his brothers sounded great.
 
MJ's vocals did appear to be strained later in life,.

For any athlete to be at the top of their gain they have to train hard and they need to compete to keep themselves sharp.
Jackson may have been training hard in his last decade but my guess is he didn't. We know for sure that he wasn't performing much and that will affect his voice. In fact he never really performed much after BAD or Dangerous because he did few televised performance and he didn't tour much.
Another issue that somebody else touched on was his nose had affected his voice. It became more nasal by the time Vince was recorded, so there was a combination that his throat had become more scratchy and his nose made it sound more nasally. It's not a brilliant combination but songs like Butterfly showed that he could still sing. At the time of Off The Wall his voice was world class and it would have been nice to hear what a younger MJ could have done with the song.


If the This Is It concerts had gone ahead the tabloids would have had a field day.
Miming had been frowned upon when Jackson was in the road with the HIStory tour but it was definitely NOT acceptable for artists to mime their concerts in 2009 and it does appear that MJ was planning to mime large portions of This Is It. The tabloids would have ripped him to shreds for miming, and they would have ripped him to shreds if the few portions sung live were not of the quality they expect from a global superstar.
As MJ got older he needed to move away from dancing throughout his performance because he just didn't have the energy any more. That's not a criticism of MJ, it's a natural part of growing older and it's unavoidable.

In my opinion the audience would forgive a 50 year old man moving away from energetic dance numbers if he sang live.
It's much harder to forgive (and much easier to criticise in media reviews) a 50 year old man miming to a 25 year old backing track while dancing slower than he could in his prime.
 
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MJTruth said:
MJ's vocals did appear to be strained later in life,.

For any athlete to be at the top of their gain they have to train hard and they need to compete to keep themselves sharp.
Jackson may have been training hard in his last decade but my guess is he didn't. We know for sure that he wasn't performing much and that will affect his voice. In fact he never really performed much after BAD or Dangerous because he did few televised performance and he didn't tour much.
Another issue that somebody else touched on was his nose had affected his voice. It became more nasal by the time Vince was recorded, so there was a combination that his throat had become more scratchy and his nose made it sound more nasally. It's not a brilliant combination but songs like Butterfly showed that he could still sing. At the time of Off The Wall his voice was world class and it would have been nice to hear what a younger MJ could have done with the song.


If the This Is It concerts had gone ahead the tabloids would have had a field day.
Miming had been frowned upon when Jackson was in the road with the HIStory tour but it was definitely NOT acceptable for artists to mime their concerts in 2009 and it does appear that MJ was planning to mime large portions of This Is It. The tabloids would have ripped him to shreds for miming, and they would have ripped him to shreds if the few portions sung live were not of the quality they expect from a global superstar.
As MJ got older he needed to move away from dancing throughout his performance because he just didn't have the energy any more. That's not a criticism of MJ, it's a natural part of growing older and it's unavoidable.

In my opinion the audience would forgive a 50 year old man moving away from energetic dance numbers if he sang live.
It's much harder to forgive (and much easier to criticise in media reviews) a 50 year old man miming to a 25 year old backing track while dancing slower than he could in his prime.
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Your opinion of his voice later in life is yours to have, but everything else is speculation.
Regardless of how things appeared none of us really know how the TII shows would have been or how the media would have reacted because they sadly never came to fruition.

Nothing personal, but I don't get when people go out of their way to say TII would have been a mess when it never even happened.:lol:
I mean we all know Michael wasn't in the best shape at the time, but I seriously doubt that had they happened that the shows would have been a hot mess like some seem to think they would have been.:no:
 
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MJTruth said:
MJ's vocals did appear to be strained later in life,.

For any athlete to be at the top of their gain they have to train hard and they need to compete to keep themselves sharp.
Jackson may have been training hard in his last decade but my guess is he didn't. We know for sure that he wasn't performing much and that will affect his voice. In fact he never really performed much after BAD or Dangerous because he did few televised performance and he didn't tour much.
Another issue that somebody else touched on was his nose had affected his voice. It became more nasal by the time Vince was recorded, so there was a combination that his throat had become more scratchy and his nose made it sound more nasally. It's not a brilliant combination but songs like Butterfly showed that he could still sing. At the time of Off The Wall his voice was world class and it would have been nice to hear what a younger MJ could have done with the song.


If the This Is It concerts had gone ahead the tabloids would have had a field day.
Miming had been frowned upon when Jackson was in the road with the HIStory tour but it was definitely NOT acceptable for artists to mime their concerts in 2009 and it does appear that MJ was planning to mime large portions of This Is It. The tabloids would have ripped him to shreds for miming, and they would have ripped him to shreds if the few portions sung live were not of the quality they expect from a global superstar.
As MJ got older he needed to move away from dancing throughout his performance because he just didn't have the energy any more. That's not a criticism of MJ, it's a natural part of growing older and it's unavoidable.

In my opinion the audience would forgive a 50 year old man moving away from energetic dance numbers if he sang live.
It's much harder to forgive (and much easier to criticise in media reviews) a 50 year old man miming to a 25 year old backing track while dancing slower than he could in his prime.
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Definitely agree with you. This is It would have been a mess. We already know he was planning to lip sync most of it. Honestly people aren't being realistic if they think This Is It was going to go at all well.
 
^How could you possibly know that?


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SmoothGangsta said:
Definitely agree with you. This is It would have been a mess. We already know he was planning to lip sync most of it. Honestly people aren't being realistic if they think This Is It was going to go at all well.
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I often felt like MJ should have moved to doing like an hour in concert of just the singing. Being all about the feels. Then an hour of the big dance numbers where he could move to lip-synching because the focus was on the dance and performance.

MJ had to adapt his show. But he didn't.
 
ChrisC said:
I often felt like MJ should have moved to doing like an hour in concert of just the singing. Being all about the feels. Then an hour of the big dance numbers where he could move to lip-synching because the focus was on the dance and performance.

MJ had to adapt his show. But he didn't.
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Hm, IDK about this idea.
Lip synching or not I've always liked the flow of Michael's concerts.
Different strokes for different folks though.:)
 
Hess said:
Is there a version where I can hear his vocals where they are not dubbed? - Always thought the live singing with his brothers sounded great.
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Here ya go. His vocals are noticeably worse than the dubbed version imo.

 
ChrisC said:
I often felt like MJ should have moved to doing like an hour in concert of just the singing. Being all about the feels. Then an hour of the big dance numbers where he could move to lip-synching because the focus was on the dance and performance.

MJ had to adapt his show. But he didn't.
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I agree, he was well aware of the expectations of the public and this is probably why This Is It turned out the way it did. I doubt he wanted to be dancing on stage with arthritis and being generally unfit. Dancing and Singing is what he was most known for though, to the general public, anyway.
 
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Anyone knows why Michael Voice's changed from the Dangerous Tour 92 to the Dangerous Tour 93? There is a " big" change between both dates.
 
1nn5 said:
Anyone knows why Michael Voice's changed from the Dangerous Tour 92 to the Dangerous Tour 93? There is a " big" change between both dates.
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Probably because he was taking drugs during the 93 leg.
 
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