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Murray Trial - 29 September - Day 3 - Discussion

Quick question about the timeline with chase testimony. did murray come downstairs after he had rung amir or was it before.
 
andjustice4some
* Wow Mesereau outside of court says defense contacted Sanjay Gupta told them what their defense would be, makes defense theory implausible

Whos the source for the above anyone heard this? whats andjustice4some a twitter account?
 
xthunderx2 said:
yes I seen it they said,,,,, Michael had 200cc of propfol in his body,,,that means that he would of needed 2 bottles of the stuff and after the first one was administered..Michael would of been passed out.NoWAY he could of administerd the second one to make the 2nd 100cc bottle. Not only that but propofol burns and that is why they use laticaine and Murray would of heard Michael screaming 2 rooms over. So NOWAY Michael administered it to himself.
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who was the person from the D.A s office that said this
 
elusive moonwalker said:
andjustice4some
* Wow Mesereau outside of court says defense contacted Sanjay Gupta told them what their defense would be, makes defense theory implausible

Whos the source for the above anyone heard this? whats andjustice4some a twitter account?
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I think I heard that on HLN.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
Quick question about the timeline with chase testimony. did murray come downstairs after he had rung amir or was it before.
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I believe Kai Chase testified that Murray came down stairs between 12.05 and 12.10, the recorded call to Amir was placed at 12.13. It's a very short window and unless Kai checked the time it's hard one to call. Either way he didn't ask either Chase or Amir to call 911 and as we know he didn't call them himself. What we do know is that Murray can't claim that he was too busy taking care of his patient to dial 911, because he dialled Amir and and shouted for Prince and security.
 
Thanks. yeah in the police interview he said he didnt call 911 cause it would be negligent to his paitent to leave him. yet he rings amir leaves the room to call chase and is out of the room when alberto gets there. Either murray knew mj wad already gone or u could say it was murder
 
elusive moonwalker said:
andjustice4some
* Wow Mesereau outside of court says defense contacted Sanjay Gupta told them what their defense would be, makes defense theory implausible

Whos the source for the above anyone heard this? whats andjustice4some a twitter account?
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yes, it's a twitter account, she also has a blog http://mjandjustice4some.blogspot.com/

I am not surprised about this information. the defense is trying to manipulate the tv watching audience probably hoping that jury will see it.
 
@elusive - I wonder if this is what they are referring to:

Dr. Drew exclusive: Cosmetic doc says he too used propofol on MJ

Conrad Murray apparently wasn't the only doctor to give pop star Michael Jackson propofol.
On Thursday night, Dr. Drew spoke exclusively with Dr. Patrick Treacy, who said he gave Jackson the powerful anesthetic on two different occasions.
Dr. Treacy, a cosmetic dermatoligist from Dublin, Ireland, says he first met Jackson when treating him for his dermatologic conditions.
“Tell us when, where and why you gave Jackson propofol?” Dr. Drew asked at the opening of the interview.
Dr. Treacy said there were issues relating to medical confidentiality that would prevent him from talking about all aspects of his care for Jackson, but he did reveal some bits of information.
“Michael had dermal fillers in his face – the areas around his nose,” Treacy explained. “He was very hypersensitive because of a previous surgery that he had, and as a consequence, he wanted sedation prior to getting, sort of, some fillers in place. “
Dr. Treacy said he had treated Jackson five or six times. On two of those occasions, Jackson received propofol, where an anesthesiologist was present. “That was always his [Michael Jackson’s] request,” Treacy said. That’s why Treacy believes that Jackson didn’t self-administer the anesthetic.
“Are you as concerned as I am that he [Michael Jackson] keeps being called an insomniac?" Dr. Drew asked. “At no point do I see any of the physicians treating insomnia – attempting to decide ... Is he in withdrawal? Is he depressed? Does he have hyperthyroidism, or does he have something else causing this insomnia? There’s no diagnosis – only the symptom of insomnia, which is the same as saying they’re treating a fever ... very disturbing.”
Dr. Treacy added that his most serious concern about the Conrad Murray case, which he says he’s been watching, "is the fact that the defense immediately turned around and said Michael Jackson could have killed himself … and a syringe was found under the bed."
“OK, if we look at the facts ... why is propofol so popular with anesthesiologist? Treacy asked. ”If you give injection of it, there is no antidote, but it only last four minutes and it wears off. If he took a 20 mil syringe himself, the most he can give himself a shot of is 200 milligrams, which would only keep him asleep for four minutes and he would wake up again. It is almost physically impossible he could have killed himself.”
“I completely agree,” Dr. Drew responded. "And the idea of it being a perfect storm that killed him instantly is also a bizarre notion … [to] even say it was enough to cause respiratory suppression, [you're looking] at quite a period of time before he is dead.”
Dr. Treacy was Michael Jackson’s doctor when he lived in Ireland in 2006-2007.
 
Petrarose said:

It seems some people really want the defense to win this case, not because Muarry is innocent but for some other motive.
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Because they hate Michael Jackson so much that they can't let him be the victim in his own homicide case. People who support don't do so because they like him, they do so because they hate Michael, it's plain and simple.
 
What do mean last tear. interms of is this what they are refering to? re gupta and the tweet are they talking about the claims of mj faking being asleep
 
claudiadoina said:
Maybe a stupid question but isn't allowed to show the members of the jury because I didn't recall to see them at all?
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no they never show the jury..for safety reasons. At the end of the trial the jurors are giving the option to have a press conference and answer questions from the media should they choose to. Some will choose to and some wont. Guess we shall have to wait and see.
 
@elusive Sorry, in terms of the quote regarding the amount of propofol MJ could give himself. I wondered if this was in fact the HLN interview that someone referred to earlier and was tweeted about.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
who was the person from the D.A s office that said this
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it was directly after court ended yesterday and the media was standing directly outside the courthouse...they panned to a anchor person that was standing there with a gentleman...sorry I am so bad at names....he could of been a doc? But any how that is what was said,
 
LastTear said:
@elusive Sorry, in terms of the quote regarding the amount of propofol MJ could give himself. I wondered if this was in fact the HLN interview that someone referred to earlier and was tweeted about.
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I seen this interview also that you are talking bout..with Tracey and that is what he did say that there was no possible way that Michael injected himself with that last dose that it would be medically impossible.
 
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twinklEE said:
Because they hate Michael Jackson so much that they can't let him be the victim in his own homicide case. People who support don't do so because they like him, they do so because they hate Michael, it's plain and simple.
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Excatly as there are alot of media who are still angry that mj got accquiited from the 2005 case and i guess want revenge for it
 
In an article from a.p they say that alberto had 30 seconds to move the kids put the vial in the bags etc. that not correct is it? wasnt it 1 min 30?
 
twinklEE said:
murray was rolling his eyes again
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That's the only thing he knows!!!!


82Thriller84 said:
Kai Chase states that, Michael came down for Lunch with the Chlidren on June 24th and Kai tells Michael he looks good and Michael smiled :happy:
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I smiled when she said that :)


Vici said:
lunch at 12:30 exactly, was a routine unless she was notified otherwise... she was not notified about any deviation on June 25th so she started to prepare lunch for 12:30pm

murray would always come down at pick up the juice at 10-10:30 but he didnt do it this day
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I just found it odd that Murray would come down and get the juice and give it to Michael.

marebear said:
Why didn't Murray just say call 911? Nobody knew how bad things were. There was too much confusion going on.
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Because he's an ass!!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
In an article from a.p they say that alberto had 30 seconds to move the kids put the vial in the bags etc. that not correct is it? wasnt it 1 min 30?
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don't know but Alvarez was not the only one who said that, one of the paramedics said Murray was late and he came back to tell him to hurry up they had to go to the hospital he found him collecting vials. Beside as I said before if Alvarez tried to hide those vials on his own ,his fingeprints would have been found on them. The paramedics will shed more light on this issue and they will give more credibility to Alvarez testimony , so don't worry .
 
Soundmind said:

MJ: blood 4.1 immediate death within one minute or at least heart stopped within one minute. Urine 0.10 /0.15 very low compared to the amount of urine produced, in total the dose that whole night did not exceed 200mg= 20ml vial and forget that 1000mg vial he did not use it and had never intended to use it simply cus Murray did not know how to use it , focus on the small empty 200mg vial and the two syringe with propofol traces found at the scene , one was used at the beginning to induce sleep and the other that killed MJ , Murray inejcted it RAPIDLY . Liver= 6 (not sure) meaning although he receieved propofol before the fatal injection , time had passed before the two injections , how much time? No one could tell .Because propofol was found in both urine samples probably hours earlier. I believe it was the induction dose the injection he started the session with , so yes he lied , MJ did not beg him for anything , Murray did start with propofol that night and contrary to what he made MJ believe all those days he used lorazepam to maintain sleep since day one .starting the process to wean him off propofol in June 23 was another fat lie . He bought boxes of lorazepam and midazolam in April and what we heard on that voicerecording was the result of lorazepam . MJ started to wake up and he injected him with a relatively average dose so he would experience the unique feelings associated with awaking from propofol , just to make sure MJ did not figure out what he was doing , average dose but rapid killed him immediately and it's documented an average propofol dosage could kill if given rapidly.
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Soundmind said:
demerol could be detected in urine in 2 to 4 days after injection. If I remember correctly he said even norpethedine was not detected in urine so what was the defense point .

I'll try to explain their strategy ok,; MJ was begging for propofol that day, Murray deprived from his usual treatment and eventually was forced to give more amounts of benzos and drugs . why? according to the article I posted before the peak of the withdrawal symptoms appears after 48 to 90 hours of the last dose. If MJ received demerol on June 22, the withdrawal symptoms might have started to show the night he died. That's their argument it seems. They r trying to justify the incredible amounts of drugs pushed into MJ's iv . .
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Thanks, Soundmind. So basically we can expect two defense statements/arguments to be scientifically debunked.

1. The 2 urine samples (MJ's bladder and in sample in container) will prove Murray gave more than a single 25mg dose of propofol just before leaving the room. He had to have given Michael propofol earlier that morning for the sample in the jar to have propofol of any amount detected in it.

2. The urine samples did not detect demerol which should have been detectable between 2-4 days (or a week?) if Michael had received it during that time period or had been a demerol addict. Withdrawal from demerol is not a valid defense argument for Michael not being able to sleep that night.

Wonder how Chernoff's experts are going to explain this. After the "MJ playing possum" theory, I can hardly wait. -_-

Btw...something came to me last night about Chernoff. What I think he's doing when he asks questions over and over is that he's locking ppl into their testimonies. When you keep asking someone "Are you sure?", "Are you certain?", "Is it possible you could you be mistaken about yada yada...?", this not only locks the witness in, BUT also, whatever the witness claims to be 100% certain on can be later used to not only impeach them IF there's other evidence showing they ARE mistaken, it can also be used to impeach another witness who says something slightly different but who also claims they, too, are 100% certain about whatever their testimony is. Two ppl saying contradictory things and both saying they are certain of their observations could be problematic.

For this reason, ppl need to be on point. If they can't remember 100% they need to say so and be emphatic about it. It's good to have witnesses who are 100% certain about what they recall, but they shouldn't force it IF they aren't sure. And if they are mistaken, they should fess up and admit it. It's better to admit it and let the jury see they are doing their best to be clear than to be adamant and have Chernoff use some other witness against them.

So, I think we need to watch Columbo a little closer. When he asks a question over and over and over...we should probably start thinking about WHY he may find that point important instead of completely dismissing it.. Sometimes it could be that he's locking a witness in or he's fishing. Other than that, odds are he's just going thru the motions and bs-ing as a defense lawyer like Murray did as a doctor on June 25th...knowing darn well Michael was already dead.
 
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elusive moonwalker said:
In an article from a.p they say that alberto had 30 seconds to move the kids put the vial in the bags etc. that not correct is it? wasnt it 1 min 30?
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The call from Michael Amir lasted 88 seconds, started at 12:18 and the call to paramedics was at 12:20, according to Alberto's phone records, so that makes about 30 seconds.
 
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Did anyone record/upload the HLN interview with Dr Treacy last night? Looking everywhere and can't find it yet, just the clips posted on CNN.
 
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