Murray Trial- Day 13- October 19th Discussion

Oh man, to think this guy might spend a few months in jail for this!!!!! My god, thi is unbearable


Or maybe no jail time at all , just house arrest according to what those low life media think! I pray to god that doesnt happen as he deserves to go to jail and i know this anit gonna happen but his sentence needs to be made higher!
 
Oh the tears....


Dr Shafer

Walgren

lack of continuous monitoring : egregious violation. It directly caused Mjs death

lack of continuous documentions : egregius and unconscionable violation : documenting is part of giving care; if he had done this, he would have seen that the oxygen saturation lowered, the different heart rythm. Violated the right of MJ and his family, because they do not know what happened.

failure to timely call 911 : egregious violation . In that setting, MJ could not have been revived without assistance. It was the highest priority , given the lack of help and equipment. If there had been impediments to call 911 , propofol should not have been given.
Assuming CM realised there was a problem at 12, doesn't understand that CM left a voice message to MAW and how it took 20 mn to call 911. Unconceivable, completely and utterly inexcusable. Doesn't know what to say.
If Cm left only for 2mn, believes MJ would be alive, with a bad brain damage, because the necessary equipment was not there. After 2mn, with the possibility to ventilate, MJ would be alive and uninjured.

How effective is a one hended CPR on a bed : when you push on the chest , the patient sinks into the bed, it's ineffective. You need 2 hands, one hand is not enough. Even if cm had his hand behind Mjs back, it's ineffective, you need your body weight.

Cm should have called 911, moved Mj to the floor. Based on Cms interview, the issue here was not that the heart stopped, he stopped breathing. If there was a pulse, he needed to have oxygen into his lungs. There was no need for CPR if there was a pulse.

Mouth to mouth is for a lay person, when there is no other means. For a docor it's the demonstration you dont have the equipment you need to ressucitate. Mouth to mouth air has only 18% oxygen. The patient needs oxygen.

Cm described raising MJ's legs : minor violation : it's a waste of time. You would do this if you think there is not enough blood in the heart. Suggests that CM was clueless about what to do.

What is flumazenil : it's a drug that can reverse or antagonize valium type of drugs. Works with lorazepam and midazolam.
Was it appropriate to give flumazenil : there was nothing wrong with giving it, but Dr Shafer thought it was curious , because it doesn't fit with 2 X 2 mg given hours before. Dr Shafer thinks that CM knew that there was a lot more lorazepam.

Deception of paramedics an UCLA doctors, not mentionning propofol : egregious and unconscionable violation. A person's life was in the balance, it's inexcusable. He also lied about the witnessed arrest. A witnessed arrest is usually something like a heart attack. A respiratory arrest is assumed to not have occured in the presence of a physician, it would not have led to a cardiac arrest. So the therapy of the paramedics and ER doctorq was not appropriate. In an arrest you have only seconds to choose a treatment, peramedics and Er doctors were not given the corect information. Witholding information is a violation of patient's trust.

Polypharmacy : it's administering many drugs at once; it was the case. Serious violation; Doesn't make any sense. Midazolam and lorazepam are very similar drugs. They do the same thing to the brain. The only difference is how long they stay in the system. Doesn't understand why CM switched from midazolam to lorazepam and back. Suggests that CM did not understand the drugs he was giving.

Was 25mg a safe dose ? In this setting, there was no safe dose. Midazolam an lorazepam were given. MJ had received benzos for 80 nights, he could have been dependant, or in withdrawal from the benzos. MJ could have been dependant or in withdrawal from propofol (Dr Shafer has never heard of propofol given for 80 nights, doesn't know what it would do). There is no safe dose in these cicumstances.

Taiwan study : dr shafer has evaluated this study, as a result of his work in this case. There are over 13 000 papers about propofol, 2500 about propofol and sedation. Propofol and insomnia : 1 article, its the Taiwan study, published in 2010.
Treating insomnia with propofol was an egregious violation.
Would not have published the Taiwan study : the dose of propofol that was given is not mentionned i the study. Inadequate evidence : 64 people is not enough, the editors were not familiar with propofol or with insomnia. The study was done in a hospital, by anesthesiolgists, patients fasted, were monitored, an infusion pump was used, propofol was used for 2 hours , for 5 days, during two weeks. No other medication was given. The patients were treated within the standard of care. The article highlights CMs deviations from standard of care.

Described 17 egregious deviations , among those 17, 4 are both egregious and unconscionable. Each one individualy were likely to result in Mjs death. They were foreseeable.
Walgren lists the 17 deviations, to fast for me.

Even if MJ had taken lorazeapm and self adminsiterd propofol, would these 17 deviations still stand, would you consider CM responsible for Mjs death ? yes.

Doctor patient relationship : dates back centuries ago. Doctors are permitted to know the most private and personal details. Doctors are entitled to give powerful drugs thant can kill and do harm, cut open a patient's body, you are entrusted to do that because you put the

patient first. When Cm agreed to give propofol to MJ, he put CM first. When CM was showing up every night with propofol and saline bags, he was putting CM first. When Cm withheld info from paramedics and ER doctors, he put CM first.

Recess, until tomorrow 8 45
 
Murray is not a heart sugeon. I think that was stated early on. He is a cardiologist.
but he still should be at least familiar with these proceedures and the dangers of
anisthetics.

I just dont know how Dr White can contradict anything Dr Shafer has stated.
will be interesting to say the least

Thanks qbee, So that's not true that Murry punctured a man's heart during surgery so contributing to his death. I'm so out of touch, trying to cope not only with the loss of Michael but also the fact it would have been so easy to save him.
 
rita.gibson;3515169 said:
Thanks qbee, So that's not true that Murry punctured a man's heart during surgery so contributing to his death. I'm so out of touch, trying to cope not only with the loss of Michael but also the fact it would have been so easy to save him.

Im not sure about that rumour -I rememeber hearing something but dont know if it was ever confirmed

Here is a description of a cardiologist
Cardiology (from Greek καρδίᾱ, kardiā, "heart"; and -λογία, -logia) is a medical specialty dealing with disorders of the heart (specifically the human heart). The field includes diagnosis and treatment of congenital heart defects, coronary artery disease, heart failure, valvular heart disease and electrophysiology. Physicians who specialize in this field of medicine are called cardiologists.

Cardiologists should not be confused with cardiac surgeons, cardiothoracic and cardiovascular, who are surgeons who perform cardiac surgery via sternotomy — open operative procedures on the heart and great vessels.
 
What could be worse?? Knowing that a couple of steps might/could have saved Michael---or that Murray might not even serve ANY time in jail.
We are never going to have any closure.
Dawn
 
I feel so gutted just knowing that all Murray had to do was stay by his side,,,and lift his chin to save his life. I think that will stay with me forever..:(

Me too^^. It really hits home how Michael really did not have to die. All he needed was some monitoring which he paid Muarry to do. This last evidence really grips you. I saw some footage of Muarry walking with his group and smiling. He really does not care, and with all the damaging evidence today, he did not even look concerned.
 
Yes, I think this is correct, and didn't an early witness state that Murray had "put in a stent?"

Yes, his former patient Russell. His surgery basically was an emergency surgery too.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...slator-Teams?p=3499320&viewfull=1#post3499320

Russell states that he had a heart attack in 2009 in Las Vegas. Russell stated that he met Dr. Murray in the emergency room in the hospital. Russell Murray reviewed what had happened, and ultimately inserted stents to the heart to repair it. Russell states that this was the first time he had ever met Murray.

Russell states he went into the emergency room, and then went into a surgical room, where Murray and an anesthesiologist performed heart surgery. Russell states that he was awakened during the surgery, because he had been give too much medicine for his blood pressure, by the hospital staff. Russell states that after he was awakened, Murray said "here's your heart (on a screen), stay awake", and that Russell did not want to see it. Russell states that Murray installed three stents in his heart. Russell states that he wanted to leave the hospital that night, but that Murray was stern with him, told him he was minutes from death, and that if Russell left the hospital, he was a dead man. Russell was released from the hospital on approximately March 12, 2009.

P.S. And from Consuelo Ng's testimony:

Defense goes over CM's schedule. Mondays and wednesdays he sees patients in the afternoon, mornings makes rounds in the hospital. Tuesdays see patients mornings, make rounds in the afternoons. Fridays he does procedures at the hospital.

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...slator-Teams?p=3502082&viewfull=1#post3502082
 
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Thanks for all the great updates everyone. nearly 4am here and just got in from work. ill catch up on shaffers direct tom if its up on the utube site before court starts again.sounds like he did an amazing job
 
when I look at CM, and the way he is presenting himself in court on the YouTube videos etc, I just feel so angry inside and it is everything I've got not to put my fist through the computer screen. please, please - he has to get the maximum sentence!

PS - I heard his voice for the first time today and it made me even more angry
 
says something like this was never ever done to anyone in history but to Michael Jackson

isnt that typical? smh.. Michael Jackson was never seen as a human being. He was never treated fair and right.. he was just like Liz Taylor once said - "treated as dirt"
 
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c
nn.comsorry if this has been posted before (if so, i couldnt find it).


Shafer, who is one of the world's foremost experts on anesthesiology, testified that he is not being paid for his testimony because he did not want people to think money would influence his testimony.

"This is just a Steve Shafer thing," Shafer said.

He agreed to testify at no charge because he feared that the publicity surrounding Jackson's death had harmed "the reputation of physicians," Shafer said. "I felt a need to help restore confidence that physicians put patients first."

"As an anesthesiologist seeing sedation given in ways that do not reflect how anesthesiologists practice, I wished to present how an anesthesiologist approaches sedation so that patients are not afraid," he said.

Propofol, which he regularly uses, has been given a bad reputation, he said.

"I am asked every day, 'Are you going to give me the drug that killed Michael Jackson?' " Shafer said. "This is a fear patients do not need to have."

cnn.com
 
Just had my work cancelled for tomorrow. So ill be at home for when the defence starts. yesssss. perfect timing.got offered some other work but was like nah im full of cold could do with a night off. not that i have cold at all!! lost money but hey theres more important things. was dredding been at work when the defence starts
 
I cant get over the fact that he swore while in court!
 
Just had my work cancelled for tomorrow. So ill be at home for when the defence starts. yesssss. perfect timing.got offered some other work but was like nah im full of cold could do with a night off. not that i have cold at all!! lost money but hey theres more important things. was dredding been at work when the defence starts
well that was lucky for you. I will be missing the beginning of their case I wont get home until the middle of their lunch hour....but I will see the rest of it,,,and I will just have to read here to catch up.
I think mj was long gone by the time murray noticed
I agree,,,Michael was long gone by the time Murray found him. Murray is so incompetent even if he was at Michael's side when he initially started having trouble...Murray still would of failed at saving his life.

I cant get over the fact that he swore while in court!

I hope the jury noticed this.
 
I hope the jury noticed this.

I hope so too but did he like say it under his breath? or did he say it out loud?

Also im surprised ppl dont get fined or in trouble for swearing in court.........or do they?
 
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