Rethinking Invincible

[Scream]

To me it's not about replacing tracks, it's more just about cutting some.
There is just way too much filler and too many tracks that have the same themes. Unless you're creating a concept album or have some elaborate story, I'm of the opinion that having 10 tracks or less is always preferable, especially for pop. Invincible did not need to be 16 tracks.

For me you could cut it down to:
Unbreakable
Heartbreaker
Break of Dawn
You Rock My World
Butterflies
Threatened
Whatever Happens

Still not one of his best by any means, but a definite improvement.

 

[MJInTheMirror]

As some people wrote here, I think that I would only cut a few tracks, but I wouldn't add anything new.
My tracklist would be:
1. Unbreakable
2. Heartbreaker
3. Invincible
4. Break Of Dawn
5. Heaven Can Wait
6. You Rock My World (without the intro)
7. Butterflies
8. Speechless
9. 2000 Watts
10. Don't Walk Away
11. Whatever Happens
12. Threatened

The album would be almost 60 minutes and would last 20 minutes less than the original.

 

[Nite Line]

This would be my tracklist for Invincible:

1) Unbreakable
2) Heartbreaker
3) Xscape (Title track)
4) Break Of Dawn
5) Beautiful Girl
6) You Rock My World
7) Butterflies
8) Speechless
9) You Are My Life
10) Hollywood Tonight
11) Don't Walk Away
12) We've Had Enough
13) Whatever Happens
14) Threatened

So I have replaced Invincible, Heaven Can Wait, Privacy and Cry with Xscape, Beautiful Girl, Hollywood Tonight and We've Had Enough. I have also dropped 2000 Watts and The Lost Children because even though I like those songs, I think 16 tracks are a bit too much for an album.

 

[KOPV]

Invincible must be the most 'rethunk' album in MJ's catalogue amongst fans.

 

[AlwaysThere]

"Don't Walk Away" is a really weird way to spell "Threatened"...

Jokes aside, how the hell is Don't Walk Away there but not Threatened?! THREATENED!!! We could not disagree more on this haha :lol: Like honestly I'd argue Threatened is one of the most creative tracks on Invincible - no, POST DANGEROUS - for the Rod Serling rap alone. Dead man rapping as I like to call it! And don't even get me started on that gloriooouuusss instrumental

Specific song choices aside, I do generally agree with your consensus, especially in regards to cutting down the track listing. It's a very long album and it's the idea of quality vs quantity to some degree. I know Michael liked to drag things on, I've heard many stories about him being forced to trim down songs in the Thriller sessions thanks to the length of an LP... even having to frantically cut down HIStory at the last minute because it was too long for disc. Sometimes though, shorter is sweeter and 12 seems like a good number to cut it down to. I also don't get how so many of the unreleased songs from these sessions (APWNN, Xscape, Another Day, Hollywood Tonight) are far greater than the songs that made the final cut!

In addition, stop relying on so many producers and writers! Aside MJ, 10 producers and 31 writers!!! (I'm including those who wrote Biggie's rap). No wonder it feels like the least MJ of all his albums! Funny how Speechless, one of the greatest tracks on Invincible by far, was produced and written entirely by Michael himself.

"Threatened" is a very intriguing way to spell "Don't Walk Away"... different language, perhaps? :cheeky:

Can't deny that "Threatened" is an immensely original and intriguing song, but I've never really considered it to be crucial listening when playing through Invincible! It feels like a played-down redux of "Thriller" or "Ghosts" that, while a solid tune, doesn't really stack up well. But I suppose I could see where you would want that track included!

Invincible gives off the indication that Michael either intentionally delivered an album below his standards or had little to no hand in putting together the track listing. It's upsetting that his catalog is bookended by a less-than-excellent record, particularly because this one seems as if it would have been so simple to cut something incredible together. Just two of the tracks you mentioned - "Escape" and "Another Day" - are absolutely excellent and would have been perfect inclusions. And call this personal bias, but "Beautiful Girl" simply needs to appear, complete or otherwise!

Definitely agree on the producers/writers comment. Invincible feels like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. There should have been 2-3 core producers (counting Michael himself) overseeing the majority of production.

 

[mj_frenzy]

In addition, stop relying on so many producers and writers! Aside MJ, 10 producers and 31 writers!!! (I'm including those who wrote Biggie's rap).

Definitely agree on the producers/writers comment. Invincible feels like a case of too many cooks in the kitchen.

Do not let yourself be deceived by the numbers of songwriters that are credited on an album!

The startlingly large number of songwriters on the ‘Invincible’ album is deceitful. For example, here is how Kenny Quiller, one of those 31 songwriters of that album, got his credit (on ‘Heaven Can Wait&#8217:

A friend of Kenny Quiller left him a CD in his house with that song and Kenny Quiller later presented that CD to Teddy Riley (when Riley was working on the ‘Invincible’ album):

"…Out of all respect for me, and because I found the song, Michael and Ted Riley and the other writers allotted me writers credit…” (Kenny Quiller)

Invincible gives off the indication that Michael either intentionally delivered an album below his standards or had little to no hand in putting together the track listing.

The first possibility (about intentionally wanting an album below his standards) is quite illogical & it amazes me that you even considered it.

 

[HIStoric]

but "Beautiful Girl" simply needs to appear, complete or otherwise!

Yes! Great song.

 

[HIStoric]

Do not let yourself be deceived by the numbers of songwriters that are credited on an album!

The startlingly large number of songwriters on the ‘Invincible’ album is deceitful. For example, here is how Kenny Quiller, one of those 31 songwriters of that album, got his credit (on ‘Heaven Can Wait&#8217:

A friend of Kenny Quiller left him a CD in his house with that song and Kenny Quiller later presented that CD to Teddy Riley (when Riley was working on the ‘Invincible’ album):

"…Out of all respect for me, and because I found the song, Michael and Ted Riley and the other writers allotted me writers credit…” (Kenny Quiller)

Ok fair enough for HCW, but how many are actually credits for the sake of being nice? Even if a few are, that's still a very large number.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Ok fair enough for HCW, but how many are actually credits for the sake of being nice? Even if a few are, that's still a very large number.

My point is not how many songwriting credits make the perfect number on an album, but to what extent those credits represent reality. Also, because of the trickiness/complexity of the whole process (registration, copyright issues, etc.) personally I do not really take them always for granted (except for certain, obvious cases, of course).

Keep in mind also that even if an singer (or a producer) appears also as a co-writer on different songs (on an album) this does not necessarily mean that he/she really co-wrote all those songs.

Here is another example from the ‘Invincible’ album about how MJ & Teddy Riley got their songwriting credits on ‘Whatever Happens’:

BOS: “When listening to your demo and the final version on Invincible, there is no real difference in melody, text, etc. Why are Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson credited? Was it a copyright issue, as in 'Give us credit, otherwise you will never see your song on the album?'"

Gil Cang: “Exactly”.

[video=youtube;4MPv6f-zYys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPv6f-zYys[/video]

 

[HIStoric]

^^What other songs on Invincible are you aware of that have "deceitful credits"? While I was aware before that being credited does not mean you wrote it, I've been thinking about your point and I am a bit more skeptical now - especially after your Heaven Can Wait example. Although your example with Whatever Happens didn't really affect how I saw it, given I knew that already but also because it didn't change the final number of cooks in the kitchen. See, when I counted 31 writers, I counted everyone once no matter how many times they appeared in the writing credits.

Not sure if I'd discount the producers entirely because Michael did often write with his producers from Dangerous onwards (Teddy Riley, Bill Bottrell, Terry Lewis, even Bruce Swedien on 2 Bad to name a few) and even then they would still sometimes suggest changes to words and lines of varying degrees, I imagine.

I personally find that that Michael's work was best when he kept it to a smaller writing/producing team, as seen with Thriller, Bad and Dangerous especially. HIStory was great too, despite having more writers and producers than his past albums, but Michael still wrote almost half the album solely by himself.

 

[mj_frenzy]

^^What other songs on Invincible are you aware of that have "deceitful credits"? While I was aware before that being credited does not mean you wrote it, I've been thinking about your point and I am a bit more skeptical now - especially after your Heaven Can Wait example. Although your example with Whatever Happens didn't really affect how I saw it, given I knew that already but also because it didn't change the final number of cooks in the kitchen. See, when I counted 31 writers, I counted everyone once no matter how many times they appeared in the writing credits.

Not sure if I'd discount the producers entirely because Michael did often write with his producers from Dangerous onwards (Teddy Riley, Bill Bottrell, Terry Lewis, even Bruce Swedien on 2 Bad to name a few) and even then they would still sometimes suggest changes to words and lines of varying degrees, I imagine.

I personally find that that Michael's work was best when he kept it to a smaller writing/producing team, as seen with Thriller, Bad and Dangerous especially. HIStory was great too, despite having more writers and producers than his past albums, but Michael still wrote almost half the album solely by himself.

I understand that, but for me, these “deceitful credits” can apply also to MJ himself, although they do not change their total number (that appears on an album), like the case of ‘You Rock My World’ also.

Given the background story of the creation of ‘You Rock My World’, personally I would not take MJ’s songwriting credits (on that song) for granted. The track was presented to MJ (by the team of Rodney Jerkins) even with LaShawn Daniels's vocals on it. MJ later simply re-recorded the song but this time with his vocals on it (he kept, though, LaShawn’s background vocals on the official version).

“… They called me at the Hit Factory and said, ‘Cory, you ‘ve gotta come over. We think we’ve got it’. When I walked in and they played me ‘Rock My World’, I almost passed out… So I took the song to Michael at the Waldorf Astoria and I played it for him… He [MJ] played it back, listened to it with his voice on it and said, ‘Okay now I love it!…” (Cory Rooney, songwriter/producer)

 

[AlwaysThere]

The first possibility (about intentionally wanting an album below his standards) is quite illogical & it amazes me that you even considered it.

Michael was frequently acting like a vexed, unprofessional child between 1999 and 2003 during his issues with Sony. He made rash decisions on the regular that ultimately painted him in a worse light than it did Mottolla.

Also, we must keep in mind Michael also allowed Sony to include "Beautiful Girl," "The Way You Love Me" and "Cheater" on The Ultimate Collection, despite the fact that he clearly wanted to complete these songs for an album and had long expressed his stance against allowing his music to be heard prior to completion.

Have we forgotten that cease and desist letters sent out to various websites after "Xscape" leaked?

It wouldn't surprise me if he just picked any sixteen songs and tossed it out there without much thought.

 

[Steven1990]

I've always loved Invincible, but if Chicago would be on it, it would have been better in my opinion. The way Michael would have finished it, not how they did it, which was nice as well. But I like to hear the King's sound!

 

[mj_frenzy]

Michael was frequently acting like a vexed, unprofessional child between 1999 and 2003 during his issues with Sony. He made rash decisions on the regular that ultimately painted him in a worse light than it did Mottolla.

Also, we must keep in mind Michael also allowed Sony to include "Beautiful Girl," "The Way You Love Me" and "Cheater" on The Ultimate Collection, despite the fact that he clearly wanted to complete these songs for an album and had long expressed his stance against allowing his music to be heard prior to completion.

It wouldn't surprise me if he just picked any sixteen songs and tossed it out there without much thought.

Intentionally delivering a studio album below his standards sounds to me like a highly conspiracy theory (among many similar others that refer to the 1999 – 2003 period).

It cannot be supported by any source that MJ wanted to sacrifice an entire studio album (by intentionally filling it with songs that he was not satisfied with) just for the sake of legal disputes with his record company, disputes that started even after the release of that album.

Besides, I could address many sources/quotes that show that MJ did not behave in a vexed/unprofessional way when he was about to release ‘Invincible’, like the following one that comes from Bruce Swedien when he talked about the ‘Invincible’ album:

“…We did the music that we love. Michael and I have an old saying, ‘The quality goes in before the name goes on.’ That's where we are coming from as far as that goes ...” (Bruce Swedien, November 2001)

 

[AlwaysThere]

Intentionally delivering a studio album below his standards sounds to me like a highly conspiracy theory (among many similar others that refer to the 1999 – 2003 period).

It cannot be supported by any source that MJ wanted to sacrifice an entire studio album (by intentionally filling it with songs that he was not satisfied with) just for the sake of legal disputes with his record company, disputes that started even after the release of that album.

Besides, I could address many sources/quotes that show that MJ did not behave in a vexed/unprofessional way when he was about to release ‘Invincible’, like the following one that comes from Bruce Swedien when he talked about the ‘Invincible’ album:

“…We did the music that we love. Michael and I have an old saying, ‘The quality goes in before the name goes on.’ That's where we are coming from as far as that goes ...” (Bruce Swedien, November 2001)

The Sony disputes began long before the album was even finished, seeing as how Mottolla knew of Michael's plan to ditch the label since 2000 at the latest. Sony showed contempt at every turn (rejecting a handful of submitted tracks, leading the single campaign), and Michael fired back harshly (showing no interest in touring, refusing to produce any short films after "You Rock My World"). And this is all before the first single dropped.

Invincible's catastrophe of a promotional campaign was as much Michael's fault as it was Sony's.

As far as Michael's professionalism is concerned, there is a well-defined downward slope in his attitude towards recording. Bill Bottrell described Michael's attitude during the 1997 Blood on the Dance Floor sessions as "angry and abusive," and said the sessions themselves were "chaotic and out of control". Dave Way pointed out that Michael was quite frequently upset and inattentive.

Similar sentiments were shared for Invincible. Michael would actively never show up to the studio, would occasionally phone in and give directions from his home, left the work in the hands of the producers and proceed to take credit for it. Brad Gilderman even expressed that quite frequently, over the course of several hours, Michael would record one verse and spend the rest of the time talking, reading or watching television, with no concern over the progress of the song.

I never claimed that Michael undoubtedly sabotaged his own album release. I simply said that, if news ever broke that it had indeed happened exactly as I described it, I wouldn't be all that surprised.

 

[HIStoric]

The Sony disputes began long before the album was even finished, seeing as how Mottolla knew of Michael's plan to ditch the label since 2000 at the latest. Sony showed contempt at every turn (rejecting a handful of submitted tracks, leading the single campaign), and Michael fired back harshly (showing no interest in touring, refusing to produce any short films after "You Rock My World"). And this is all before the first single dropped.

Invincible's catastrophe of a promotional campaign was as much Michael's fault as it was Sony's.

Makes me wonder how different this would've been had it been 2016 and not 2001, with the internet and all. Frank Ocean recently left his label in the most badass way. He had one more album remaining on his label contract, so he released a visual album onto Apple Music thus completing his contract... but get this, it wasn't released to the iTunes Store in any shape, so you can't buy it!

Two days later, he released his highly anticipated follow up album to channel ORANGE onto the iTunes Store independently, completely overshadowing the visual album he released via label two days earlier! It's great because his album Blonde is at the top of the charts worldwide but you can't even buy the visual album, so it's a great middle finger to his record label. Goes without saying the label aren't very happy haha.

 

[mj_frenzy]

The Sony disputes began long before the album was even finished, seeing as how Mottolla knew of Michael's plan to ditch the label since 2000 at the latest. Sony showed contempt at every turn (rejecting a handful of submitted tracks, leading the single campaign), and Michael fired back harshly (showing no interest in touring, refusing to produce any short films after "You Rock My World"). And this is all before the first single dropped.

Invincible's catastrophe of a promotional campaign was as much Michael's fault as it was Sony's.

As far as Michael's professionalism is concerned, there is a well-defined downward slope in his attitude towards recording. Bill Bottrell described Michael's attitude during the 1997 Blood on the Dance Floor sessions as "angry and abusive," and said the sessions themselves were "chaotic and out of control". Dave Way pointed out that Michael was quite frequently upset and inattentive.

Similar sentiments were shared for Invincible. Michael would actively never show up to the studio, would occasionally phone in and give directions from his home, left the work in the hands of the producers and proceed to take credit for it. Brad Gilderman even expressed that quite frequently, over the course of several hours, Michael would record one verse and spend the rest of the time talking, reading or watching television, with no concern over the progress of the song.

I never claimed that Michael undoubtedly sabotaged his own album release. I simply said that, if news ever broke that it had indeed happened exactly as I described it, I wouldn't be all that surprised.

It is untrue that Sony showed contempt at every turn of his submitted tracks, for example:

“… I played six songs for Sony Music today and they were walking on air. They applauded. They really loved them… “ (MJ, November 2000)

Also, taking into account MJ’s confessions to Cory Rooney in the early ‘00s, MJ did not tour (at that time) due to his big health concerns, rather than out of revenge for Sony’s treatment towards his album after its release:

“…'Cory, I can’t tour anymore. I’m not gonna tour anymore. Ok?’ I said, ‘Why Mike?’ He said, ‘Because it will kill me.’ That’s what he said to me. He said, ‘It will kill me… when I get ready for a tour I get dehydrated. I don’t eat. I don’t drink. I don’t sleep. I put so much of myself into preparing for a tour...” (Cory Rooney)

In retrospect, I agree that both parties (MJ & Sony) were equally at fault (concerning a proper promotional campaign).

Finally, I do not think at all that MJ’s professionalism was on a downward spiral towards recording (from ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ onwards). I can understand that in some cases MJ may have appeared upset, or even angry, but this can be put down to anxiety brought on by higher pressure for success/desired sound results, rather than to a lack of interest on MJ’s part.

 

[AlwaysThere]

It is untrue that Sony showed contempt at every turn of his submitted tracks, for example:

“… I played six songs for Sony Music today and they were walking on air. They applauded. They really loved them… “ (MJ, November 2000)

Also, taking into account MJ’s confessions to Cory Rooney in the early ‘00s, MJ did not tour (at that time) due to his big health concerns, rather than out of revenge for Sony’s treatment towards his album after its release:

“…'Cory, I can’t tour anymore. I’m not gonna tour anymore. Ok?’ I said, ‘Why Mike?’ He said, ‘Because it will kill me.’ That’s what he said to me. He said, ‘It will kill me… when I get ready for a tour I get dehydrated. I don’t eat. I don’t drink. I don’t sleep. I put so much of myself into preparing for a tour...” (Cory Rooney)

In retrospect, I agree that both parties (MJ & Sony) were equally at fault (concerning a proper promotional campaign).

Finally, I do not think at all that MJ’s professionalism was on a downward spiral towards recording (from ‘Blood On The Dance Floor’ onwards). I can understand that in some cases MJ may have appeared upset, or even angry, but this can be put down to anxiety brought on by higher pressure for success/desired sound results, rather than to a lack of interest on MJ’s part.

In actuality, label executives didn't care for anything he submitted in late November 2000 and pushed the release date a third or fourth time from March 2001 to the summer, demanding Michael return to the studio and come up with better material. Michael, in turn, was so embarrassed that he stopped attending studio sessions entirely between late December 2000 and March 2001, at which point he finally manned up, scrapped much of what had already been recorded, and finished the album (though the release date was again pushed to October because the final masters weren't submitted until June 12, 2001).

A similar situation happened in 1995 when Michael presented the finished History album to a room full of executives, all of whom listened in silence and walked out without a word when it was finished.

"Break of Dawn," "You Rock My World," "Speechless" and "Privacy" are the only songs from Invincible that were written/recorded prior to November 2000. "The Lost Children" was recorded in December 2000. Everything else (including all of the Teddy Riley collaborations) were done between March and June 2001. That's a pretty telling sign. (And yes, this is all true and supported by people who worked the Invincible sessions. Look it up.)

Michael Jackson did not always tell the truth, particularly in the 2000s. People need to realize that.

 

[KOPV]

Just to make the list properly what is the full list of songs we know for sure were worked on (1999-2001 pre release)?

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

In actuality, label executives didn't care for anything he submitted in late November 2000 and pushed the release date a third or fourth time from March 2001 to the summer, demanding Michael return to the studio and come up with better material. Michael, in turn, was so embarrassed that he stopped attending studio sessions entirely between late December 2000 and March 2001, at which point he finally manned up, scrapped much of what had already been recorded, and finished the album (though the release date was again pushed to October because the final masters weren't submitted until June 12, 2001).
.

Has this ever been corroborated by anyone?

 

[AlwaysThere]

Has this ever been corroborated by anyone?

Mike Smallcombe spoke of it in Making Michael. Specifically, that info about Michael abandoning the studio as a result of the Sony response was revealed by Stuart Brawley.

The release dates have circulated online and in print for ages.

There have been at least four planned release dates for Invincible between 1999 and 2001 (the first was November 9, 1999), all of which were pushed because Michael wasn't ready.

 

[mj_frenzy]

Bill Bottrell described Michael's attitude during the 1997 Blood on the Dance Floor sessions as "angry and abusive," and said the sessions themselves were "chaotic and out of control".

Bill Bottrell talked about “chaotic" recording sessions (when it came to MJ), but that word has a completely different, positive meaning (if it is placed in context):

“… He [MJ] chooses to run an organization making a record of musicians, engineers, producers, writers. These are some flaky people [laughs] and he [MJ] finds a way to motivate them, organize them, make them compete with one another… he [MJ] did have wonderful skills at managing all this chaos going on. And it’s music, it is chaos… ” (Bill Bottrell)

The release dates have circulated online and in print for ages.

There have been at least four planned release dates for Invincible between 1999 and 2001 (the first was November 9, 1999), all of which were pushed because Michael wasn't ready.

MJ was not ready (before his studio album releases) because that was the way he used to work all the time, making final tracklists only to change them at the last minute (because of his own accord & not because of his record company’s demands)! The same thing happened also with his ‘Dangerous’ album which suffered several postponed release dates only because of his own uncertainty. I still cannot understand why ‘Invincible’ has to be treated differently by putting the blame on his record company’s dissatisfaction with the submitted tracks.

In actuality, label executives didn't care for anything he submitted in late November 2000 and pushed the release date a third or fourth time from March 2001 to the summer, demanding Michael return to the studio and come up with better material. Michael, in turn, was so embarrassed that he stopped attending studio sessions entirely between late December 2000 and March 2001, at which point he finally manned up, scrapped much of what had already been recorded, and finished the album (though the release date was again pushed to October because the final masters weren't submitted until June 12, 2001).

Let me have my strong reservations about that.

 

[SkyWalk]

"Break of Dawn," "You Rock My World," "Speechless" and "Privacy" are the only songs from Invincible that were written/recorded prior to November 2000. "The Lost Children" was recorded in December 2000. Everything else (including all of the Teddy Riley collaborations) were done between March and June 2001. That's a pretty telling sign. (And yes, this is all true and supported by people who worked the Invincible sessions. Look it up.)

So ....... Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, Invincible, Butterflies, Heaven Can Wait, You Are My Life, 2000 Watts, Don't walk Away, Cry, Whatever Happens, Threatened were all written and recorded in 3 months?? Blimey.

 

[OnirMJ]

Has this ever been corroborated by anyone?

No. He made that up.

 

[AlwaysThere]

So ....... Unbreakable, Heartbreaker, Invincible, Butterflies, Heaven Can Wait, You Are My Life, 2000 Watts, Don't walk Away, Cry, Whatever Happens, Threatened were all written and recorded in 3 months?? Blimey.

My bad - "Cry" was also recorded beforehand, around 1999.

But yes, signs point to almost everything else being recorded between March and June 2001. That isn't completely impossible either, if Michael really cracked the whip and started working. The vast majority of Thriller was recorded between late August and early November 1982, after all.

Also take into consideration that several of these songs were completed at the time they were handed to Michael; all that was needed was to polish the production and record his vocals. Neither Michael nor Teddy Riley had a hand in writing "Whatever Happens," for example, though they are credited as cowriters. I also believe Michael took credit for "Heaven Can Wait" and "You Are My Life".

Bill Bottrell talked about “chaotic" recording sessions (when it came to MJ), but that word has a completely different, positive meaning (if it is placed in context):

“… He [MJ] chooses to run an organization making a record of musicians, engineers, producers, writers. These are some flaky people [laughs] and he [MJ] finds a way to motivate them, organize them, make them compete with one another… he [MJ] did have wonderful skills at managing all this chaos going on. And it’s music, it is chaos… ” (Bill Bottrell)

Solid defense. But that doesn't apply to Bottrell's other claim of Michael being "angry and abusive".

MJ was not ready (before his studio album releases) because that was the way he used to work all the time, making final tracklists only to change them at the last minute (because of his own accord & not because of his record company’s demands)! The same thing happened also with his ‘Dangerous’ album which suffered several postponed release dates only because of his own uncertainty. I still cannot understand why ‘Invincible’ has to be treated differently by putting the blame on his record company’s dissatisfaction with the submitted tracks.

The difference lies within the fact that Michael was vocally upset with Sony during the Invincible sessions, and vice versa.

Keep in mind that by the spring of 2001, recording sessions had been ongoing for upwards of three years, and Sony had pushed the release date numerous times, had only received a handful of tracks, and were hearing through the grapevine of Michael's increasing level of disinterest in the sessions. Not to mention of Michael's growing irritation with the label in general - tensions had been growing between them since History.

Dangerous was created at a point where Michael was still a universally renowned artist, not the unevenly-received artist considered to be past his prime that he was by 2001. He was also far more active in a studio atmosphere.

Michael postponing his album release dates started to wear on Sony more and more, particularly during Invincible when they themselves were paying for studio, producer, engineer, travel, and equipment fees.

To summarize: Invincible was an individually-interesting case when viewed in context of Michael's feelings towards Sony and his overall engagement with the music he was creating. The next time he would actively care about creating an album would be in September 2006.

No. He made that up.

Onir! I missed you needlessly starting arguments rather than asking where this knowledge comes from. Welcome back!

Take a quick look at Making Michael by Mike Smallcombe. Everything I said regarding the rejected Sony tracks, as well as pretty much everything I've said in this thread, is freely available in there, corroborated by a number of studio engineers and musicians.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Mike Smallcombe spoke of it in Making Michael. Specifically, that info about Michael abandoning the studio as a result of the Sony response was revealed by Stuart Brawley.

The release dates have circulated online and in print for ages.

There have been at least four planned release dates for Invincible between 1999 and 2001 (the first was November 9, 1999), all of which were pushed because Michael wasn't ready.

So because it's written in a book we should take it as the gospel?

 

[SmoothGangsta]

^ A lot of fans seem to do that when it comes to a certain Mr Vogel's book.

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

^ A lot of fans seem to do that when it comes to a certain Mr Vogel's book.

That's true. But even Vogel has been wrong about certain stuff. It's pretty easy to add fuel to the sony/MJ Invincible situation because we know that their relationship at that time was less than cordial. It leaves room for all kinds of crazy speculative and conspiratory rumors.

 

[AlwaysThere]

So because it's written in a book we should take it as the gospel?

Fair point.

Smallcombe's book stands in a higher regard in my opinion simply because there is are innumerable new quotes and anecdotes from musicians, engineers, songwriters, and producers alike that shine some new light. Unlike Vogel's book, as pointed out by SmoothGangsta, it strives to provide as much clarity as possible, rather than rehashing old quotes without further context.

The claim I made above was substantiated and supported by Stuart Brawley within the book. Good for me personally.

 

[mj_frenzy]

(And yes, this is all true and supported by people who worked the Invincible sessions. Look it up.)

Mike Smallcombe spoke of it in Making Michael. Specifically, that info about Michael abandoning the studio as a result of the Sony response was revealed by Stuart Brawley.

The difference lies within the fact that Michael was vocally upset with Sony during the Invincible sessions, and vice versa.

Take a quick look at Making Michael by Mike Smallcombe. Everything I said regarding the rejected Sony tracks, as well as pretty much everything I've said in this thread, is freely available in there, corroborated by a number of studio engineers and musicians.

I do not doubt the existence of your source(s). But, it looks like all those stories about the ‘Invincible’ sessions (including also the ones in that book) try to depict MJ as a totally uninterested/addled/disoriented artist who lacked a clear vision (about that album) & was hugely manipulated by his company during those sessions. Personally, I find it really hard to believe those stories that try to portray the ‘Invincible’ sessions in such a negative light.

Besides, when Sony top executives got an exclusive preview several months before the album’s official release (Manhattan, June 2001), they got elated by the songs that MJ played for them. Shortly afterwards, it was revealed that the track list of that preview was almost identical to the official one.