Something I've Always Wondered

[Moonstreet]

Ive always wondered about after death fans. I'm not talking about fans who were children or teens in 2010, or those born since June 2009, I'm talking about all those who were adults, in their 20's, 30's, 40's and older who became after death fans who NOW proclaim they are the biggest fans ever.

I remember so many people being interviewed on TV outside Carolwood and Staples Center, who found the time on June 26, June 27 and many days after who claimed to love him, yet had no idea he was living in LA, or rehearsing. They could turn up on June 26, be filmed crying outside Carolwood, yet 3 days beforehand, had no idea he was in the city.

Ive always wondered why did it take him to die for all these adults to suddenly care about him??

All the Thrilller era fans, all the fans from the 1970's, so many people who just dropped him in the 1980's.

The internet became mainstream and all you had to do was care enough to search Michael Jackson fans and you would have found us.

Why did it take for him to die for adults to suddenly remember we have this thing called the internet and maybe there are others like me out there?

Why on June 24 2009, when this forum was hopping with excited fans planning concerts and buying and selling tickets, did all those adults have no interest in being part of a fan community, yet it was oh so important to connect with fans on June 26 when he was dead???

I'm not asking for your story, frankly I have no interest in after death fans trying to rationalize why they care now he is dead, when they didnt care about him when he was alive. These are rhetorical questions, and things no one talks about.

I probably wont even reply to this thread but these thoughts and a lot more are in my head and are part of the reason why I am not as active in the fan community as I was when Michael was alive.

 

[summer]

I remember so vividly July 13th, 2009 at the O2. It was supposed to be the opening night of This Is It and such a HAPPY day, and we were all supposed to be there to be EXCITED out of our brains to get to see Michael and the show…..but instead….it was the WORST and SADDEST day of our lives. The sorrow was UNBEARABLE. And so when I got to the O2…clutching the flowers I had bought for Michael, to lay down at the O2, against my chest….wearing sunglasses to hide my eyes from people seeing me constantly sobbing…feeling absolutely CRUSHED…feeling sad and empty and just gutted…and literally feeling at a loss for words….and walk out from the tube station and come to the area in front of the O2…..and see these people packed on this little stage in front of the video screen where it says ”Michael Jackson 1958-2009”…And all these people are SMILING and LAUGHING and dancing to Michael’s music and singing loud and yelling into a megaphone to tell the crowd what to do….and it’s like a CIRCUS!! Like just an absolute CIRCUS!! And I look at them and I’m thinking…WHO are these people??!!!!!! I do not recognize ANY of them!!! I have not seen ANY of them at Michael’s hotel ANYWHERE in the world….EVER!!! Definitely not 3 months before when Michael was there!! Not at the hotel…and not at the O2!!! And they were turning the vigil into a circus!!! They were so loud…and it seemed like they were making it about themselves, to get attention. I just remember it bothering me SO MUCH!!! And then there were the fans I’d met at MJ’s hotels or concerts…or knew from the forums….and all of them were mainly just staring straight ahead…all just quiet…all still in a complete state of shock, barely able to say a word. I remember how we all kept saying ”You can really tell all the real fans from the fair-weather fans just by looking at them. The real fans are quiet and crying and in shock. The fair weather fans are putting on a show and are loud and acting like it’s a circus.” To kind of give you an idea on how it felt…imagine you’d be going to a funeral..and then there are people laughing and smiling and being loud and acting like it’s the party of the year. That’s pretty much what it felt like. It just almost felt disrespectful.

Anyways….that being said…Other than that…I personally feel that I can’t really judge other people’s fandom. Everyone has to start somewhere as a fan. All I have to do is think back on how I started..I was pretty much proclaiming myself Michael’s biggest fan right after Bad, even though I hadn’t been a fan even for one year yet and hadn’t heard all the previous albums yet but I loved him SO MUCH that in MY mind (well…and in all my friends’ opinion too, I’m sure ) I was his BIGGEST fan!! I think fandom is a journey of sorts and everyone starts somewhere and at different points of life and for different reasons. And you learn new things every day. And people’s life situations are different. There’s been times when something has been going on in my own life too where I maybe was less active, but never stopped loving MJ nevertheless. And if you aren’t lucky enough to be connected to the right people…or like in my case..if you’re really shy or sort of stand in your own way with your own principles…you may not get to know half the stuff that’s going on. So you may not even know about everything. Or like I mentioned in the other thread..I had been a fan for 8 years by 1995….but I didn’t know that you could ACTUALLY get to see a glimpse of Michael if you waited outside. I just had no idea. So I’m guessing there are a lot of people who were fans but neverknew fan communities even existed. Sure, you can google…if you know WHAT to google. If you don’t know something exists…you can’t google it. So it’s possible some only know about the major stuff that’s in the news, like albums and tours because they never knew about any otherr sources. We have to keep in mind how long ago it was too and even though we had internet….it still wasn’t as accessible as it is now. I got my own laptop and internet at home around 2002. Before that, I could only use the internet at internet cafes. So my time using it was very limited. And for sure I wasn’t the only one. We have to keep in mind that something that we take for granted and we were able to have…..might not have been as easy for someone else. And people’s lives and finances can be very different. It’s harder for someone with four kids to just spontaneously travel somewhere to go see Michael than it is for someone without kids. It’s easier with someone with money to spare to just go see Michael than for someone who struggles to even have enough money to eat. I would’ve WANTED to travel to see Michael as OFTEN as possible…but as a student…I just absolutely did not have the money. And once I started working…I couldn’t just get vacation whenever I wanted plus I STILL wouldn’t have had that kind of money. And I think for a lot of people, at some point, they just had to (and hopefully wanted to as well) focus on family and their kids. They probably simply didn’t have the time. And I know Michael would be the first one to say they did the right thing, if they spent their time and attention on their children, instead of him. I know he would’ve been heartbroken if he knew that someone’s children had to fight for their parent’s attention just because of him. That would’ve made him sad.

So I think there are a lot of different kinds of Michael Jackson fans, who are fans…but not at all involved in the fan communities etc. for various personal reasons…but who still have a lot of love and respect for Michael. And maybe some of them only appear at times, because they feel they have to say something depending on what’s going on…or maybe for them Michael sort of just always was there…and when he was gone so suddenly and so soon, it shook them and they felt they had to say something, so they seemingly appeared out of nowhere. Or maybe they just never really gave him much thought or weren’t exposed to his work as much before and once he was gone and it was EVERYWHERE they sort of realized what a genius he truly was and became fans. As I said…everyone has to start their fandom somewhere.

Anyways….I could go through all kinds of scenarios. I don’t really have a problem with anyone who loves Michael. AS LONG as they don’t start with the child abuse bs. THAT is where I draw the line. I just have absolutely NO patience for those claiming to be ”fans” but needing to specify that they are ONLY fans of his music but think he was guilty. All of those ”fans”….can eff off for all I care!!! In THAT case…no….you are NOT a fan!!! Other than that…I personally don’t have a problem with other people’s level of fandom..as long as they are respectful, as I said. In hindsight I also understand that I might have been too harsh and too judgemental on those who were loud at the O2 vigil too. I now understand that everyone grieves differently and maybe those fans felt like they wanted to try to cheer others up or it was their way of paying their respects for Michael by celebrating his life and his music. And if they had never been lucky enough to have any a bit more close and a bit more personal interactions with him the way we might have had…their bond and relationship to him was different than ours. So even though the actions of those fans TOTALLY bothered me at the vigil back then…I now understand that we are all different and everyone does have a right to be a fan how they see best for them. But at the same time… I ABSOLUTELY understand where you’re coming from and TOTALLY understand your feelings and your frustration because that’s EXACTLY how I felt after MJ died too. I totally get it, believe me!!! *hugs*

 

[wendijane]

Hmm...You know i do think this is a very hot thread and topic here but i appreciate it being here on MJJC. I hope it doesn't raise too many feathers because it seems to be an interesting discussion.

I am now of the belief that yes, if you walk into different fan communities at various times before the person's absence or after the person's absence then that time is supposed to be right for you or to make make sense to you at least, to want to start. ,, i have found out that it doesn't just 'happen'... it is more -so a case of when it will. So. this level of grief i guess ..i'm questioning that part , if i'm honest,

So.... " should i feel guilty if i am /exploring/ experiencing / starting to feel grief /feeling some sense of grief for someone now deceased who i never cared /gave a flying frig about previously? As in, is my level of grief as warranted or as valid and feelings as genuine as the, [well some here say O.G and some say O.f ] original supporters before me , who were actually there at that time,..compared to what i was doing at that time . "

I'm not talking about the supporters who have always been on Michael's side from 1958 until infinity, they just never felt the need to be well known in the communities online. I am talking to the supporters after June 25th 2009 - onwards, & well, daily & as there will be more soon to follow because you know that the MJJ biopic will bring more new fans in more than likely, a mix of emotions.. in awe, crying, excited, pained, shamed, brand new etc. So funny to me that some of those people haven't even thought about all that yet, or Michael at all ! but they are coming soon and it is a strange thing to think about.

Good raw interesting debate. Hopefully more would join.

 

[wendijane]

@Agonum thank you. i felt a bit queasy typing that out !

 

[wendijane]

Mmm bump.

 

[Moonstreet]

As in, is my level of grief as warranted or as valid and feelings as genuine as the, [well some here say O.G and some say O.f ] original supporters before me , who were actually there at that time,..compared to what i was doing at that time . "

In a word no.

Its different and not the same.

Ive have various versions of this conversation over the years with fan friends.

Basically the feeling is all these after death fans are doing is recreating what we did. That they see what we did on YouTube videos and think thats what they should do and act. That is all an act of show, jumping on band wagon to get internet clout.

There is a fundamental difference between someone's reaction to standing in front of Michael, talking to him, and to after death fans making a show of themselves at the Cirque shows, or the musical, or just watching some video etc etc.

The chanting, the screaming, is all just making a mockery of our real experiences.

Its like its oh so easy to be a fan now he is dead, compared to when he was alive.

 

[wendijane]

In a word no.

Its different and not the same.

Ive have various versions of this conversation over the years with fan friends.

Basically the feeling is all these after death fans are doing is recreating what we did.

The re- creating mmm.. Lots for me to think about here. Basically I ask, but i ask selfishly because i find myself being a baby brand new fan elsewhere. It feels strange though to be a 'starter' when m was all i knew . you know? My friend is willing for me to learn about said band but I'm shocked he accepted me so quickly as he has. I feel fake. it does come down to the re-create , to me anyway.

That they see what we did on YouTube videos and think thats what they should do and act. That is all an act of show, jumping on band wagon to get internet clout.

There is a fundamental difference between someone's reaction to standing in front of Michael, talking to him, and to after death fans making a show of themselves at the Cirque shows, or the musical, or just watching some video etc etc.

The chanting, the screaming, is all just making a mockery of our real experiences.

Mockery? ..this never came across my mind. But oh man you give me things to think about here. just not M related .. I see what you are saying now.

Its like its oh so easy to be a fan now he is dead,

I need to pull out the Baileys and think hard about it. Maybe i copped out.

compared to when he was alive.

I think i am soul searching this myself - again ,not mj related. Thanks for the thought - provoking thread though and being honest.

 

[Moonstreet]

And to go even deeper into the chanting and the screaming, the silly songs, the banners outside hotels.

For us, there was only reason we did all of that, it was to get Michaels attention. Get Michaels attention, stand out from the fan over there, get him to acknowledge you in some way, get to meet him, thats it. Do something silly, make him laugh, make him smile, get him to remember you.

For us, the screaming was an unconscious and automatic reaction to seeing him in real life, breathing the same air as him, feeling his aura in the air.

But why do the after death fans do the chants, why do the after death fans scream his name??? Whats the purpose, he is dead. Its all an act, its fake, just what they saw on YouTube that fans do.

Also when Michael was alive, it was not a cool thing to be a fan. There were times especially in 2004 and 2005, when fans would get verbal abuse from the general public if you wore an MJ tshirt out and about. So basically being a Michael Jackson fan had real world implications for some fans, causing issues with their families or at work putting their jobs at risk for supporting someone charged with what he was accused of.

Even in March 2009, when we were outside the Lanesborough Hotel, and people walking by would ask us who we were waiting to see, we got verbal abuse when we said it was Michael.

So then a few months, he is dead and suddenly theres all these adults proclaiming to be fans.

 

[PixieJ]

I have mixed feelings here. I don't think fans who became fans after his death can appreciate the level of grief those of us who have been fans for many years during his life feel or felt.

I am not saying their grief and experiences are not real. But they are not the same. I am grateful for everyone who comes to appreciate Michael's music, art and him as a person. But I don't think we have the same experience.

To me the after death fans are not faking or mocking. It's (I assume) their excitement. And that's great.

While Michael was alive, as @Moonstreet said, it was different. Exciting, thrilling. It wassl for his attention and for him to know how much we love him as much as our own excitement just coming out naturally.

I have a problem with new fans mocking or belittling "OG" fans for their feelings and experiences.

The displays of partying and celebrating at his memorials etc ... It felt a little disrespectful. But at the same time, I was glad to see people celebrating his life and music.

Equally, I was never one to stand in front of hotels for long periods of time or following Michael around - partially I was too young and my parents wouldn't have allowed it. But I also felt at times that the obsessive following, almost stalking, was detrimental to Michael himself. I think he loved his fans and had fun seeing them, loved the excitement.... But at times I feel he would have enjoyed being able to go shopping, or be just out in general without needing a small army to keep people at bay. I also know that many fans were very respectful and it was the randomers (not fans as such) who got excited to see a superstar who seemed more intrusive.

I don't know. No one has a claim to him or to being the only real fans. Anyone is of course welcome to his music, welcome to his fandom. But I definitely agree that experiences differ.

 

[PixieJ]

Also when Michael was alive, it was not a cool thing to be a fan. There were times especially in 2004 and 2005, when fans would get verbal abuse from the general public if you wore an MJ tshirt out and about. So basically being a Michael Jackson fan had real world implications for some fans, causing issues with their families or at work putting their jobs at risk for supporting someone charged with what he was accused of.

Even in March 2009, when we were outside the Lanesborough Hotel, and people walking by would ask us who we were waiting to see, we got verbal abuse when we said it was Michael.

Definitely this. It was not cool to be a fan. It was often highly contentious and could lead to real conflict.

 

[wendijane]

Yeah i guess so much to consider here I think

 

[librariangirl:)]

I found it awesome that people celebrated MJ again, I'm sure he would have loved it! For the fans it was also cool because you didn't need to defend him anymore or be looked strange upon. That all unfortunately changed in 2019.

 

[Moonstreet]

I found it awesome that people celebrated MJ again, I'm sure he would have loved it! For the fans it was also cool because you didn't need to defend him anymore or be looked strange upon. That all unfortunately changed in 2019.

Maybe if he had that huge support when he was alive, he might not be dead.

 

[wendijane]

I have literally, awkwardly deserted the other 'new to me', I do still feel very weird bout it . ..I It's like a square peg, round hole scenario. and goodness knows what else. I do know one thing, i know how I despise change. Although i 'tried' to do it for the better or the greater good but maybr I guess I should probably stay away. As for m , i'm just very grateful i 'was there' when it was 'all going on'.

Maybe It's like you are faced with two bridges and you cross just one in life. Or two paths , or escalators and you choose one way , and there's your journey. that's what 'shaped' your mind and what suited you at the time. [think I'm still recovering from last night's lovely showing of 'The Wiz' ]

I hope more new fans will join us.

 

[librariangirl:)]

Maybe if he had that huge support when he was alive, he might not be dead.

True, it's sad that he wasn't able to live it.

 

[Moonstreet]

True, it's sad that he wasn't able to live it.

Thats not really what I meant. What I meant was the huge world wide acceptance when he was dead. If the general public had behaved that way , when he was alive, in 2006, 2007, then maybe in 2008 he might not have put himself in the position of staging a comeback.

In the last years of his life, when he did appearances, like at the 2006 World Music Awards in London, he was seen as the joke of the music industry, the media reports were negative, his music was not played on mainstream media.

Again I ask the question, how is it he had world wide acceptance on June 26 2009, yet on June 24 2009 no one cared.

It the huge shift in public perception, I can never accept.

How walking out of my flat in London on June 26 , I was surrounded by this huge outpouring of public grief, yet 24 hours previously, no one cared.

 

[PixieJ]

Thats not really what I meant. What I meant was the huge world wide acceptance when he was dead. If the general public had behaved that way , when he was alive, in 2006, 2007, then maybe in 2008 he might not have put himself in the position of staging a comeback.

In the last years of his life, when he did appearances, like at the 2006 World Music Awards in London, he was seen as the joke of the music industry, the media reports were negative, his music was not played on mainstream media.

Again I ask the question, how is it he had world wide acceptance on June 26 2009, yet on June 24 2009 no one cared.

It the huge shift in public perception, I can never accept.

How walking out of my flat in London on June 26 , I was surrounded by this huge outpouring of public grief, yet 24 hours previously, no one cared.

Yes. That hurts me to this day. I agree. I completely understand. I felt the same then and still feel that way.

 

[Sensual visionary]

Thank you for this valuable thread.
My take is that it's more about the psychological environment. I mean, obviously everyone who hears Michael has a variety of emotional responses, but sharing this emotional bond to an artist with friends and family is often another question.

As humans, in our anxious bonds to our adjacent groups in society, in culture, nationally, globally, many of us are either reluctant to admit we're emotionally engaged in the actual lives of the entities of our cultural pantheon, or we default to stereotypical reactions reflecting group dynamics of the time. I'm sure in cultures all over the US and anglocentric culture this can vary a lot. Likewise across Europe...

(Very) roughly, it's like how people may have secretly enjoyed Britney Spears, musically, culturally, visually etc, but kept it subdued before it suddenly became socially acceptable to care about her mental health.

And however much we don't like to admit we're affected by tabloid trends, many people in cities probably are, subconsciously.

Collective emotional outpourings are very significant for many reasons. When MJ was suddenly hospitalized, the world held it's breath, and what ensued was one of few times when people could universally agree that the appropriate response was (all along) simply and openly caring about Michael as the actual human he was, and realizing how much he affected the whole world.
I think part of the overwhelm of the response is the striking realization we had of how many people deeply cared. I see it as a meta cultural moment of sudden bonding.

But bonds need to be cared for, too. As for the fan community aspect, I have no easy explanation. I suspect there were and still are a great amount of people who are mostly lurkers.

I guess the simpler way to say it is there are a lot of ”closet-fans". Especially of the phenomenon of Michael Jackson.

In this free forum with MJ focus, emotional authenticity will be the norm (unless there are intimidating people around who steer the conversation in certain directions).

This is just my current view. Whenever I happen to live in a culture with very open emotional expression I may feel differently.
Just some ramblings...

 

[Moonstreet]

Thank you for this valuable thread.
My take is that it's more about the psychological environment. I mean, obviously everyone who hears Michael has a variety of emotional responses, but sharing this emotional bond to an artist with friends and family is often another question.

As humans, in our anxious bonds to our adjacent groups in society, in culture, nationally, globally, many of us are either reluctant to admit we're emotionally engaged in the actual lives of the entities of our cultural pantheon, or we default to stereotypical reactions reflecting group dynamics of the time. I'm sure in cultures all over the US and anglocentric culture this can vary a lot. Likewise across Europe...

(Very) roughly, it's like how people may have secretly enjoyed Britney Spears, musically, culturally, visually etc, but kept it subdued before it suddenly became socially acceptable to care about her mental health.

And however much we don't like to admit we're affected by tabloid trends, many people in cities probably are, subconsciously.

Collective emotional outpourings are very significant for many reasons. When MJ was suddenly hospitalized, the world held it's breath, and what ensued was one of few times when people could universally agree that the appropriate response was (all along) simply and openly caring about Michael as the actual human he was, and realizing how much he affected the whole world.
I think part of the overwhelm of the response is the striking realization we had of how many people deeply cared. I see it as a meta cultural moment of sudden bonding.

But bonds need to be cared for, too. As for the fan community aspect, I have no easy explanation. I suspect there were and still are a great amount of people who are mostly lurkers.

I guess the simpler way to say it is there are a lot of ”closet-fans". Especially of the phenomenon of Michael Jackson.

In this free forum with MJ focus, emotional authenticity will be the norm (unless there are intimidating people around who steer the conversation in certain directions).

This is just my current view. Whenever I happen to live in a culture with very open emotional expression I may feel differently.
Just some ramblings...

um, ...okay... I guess

reads very much AI to me, not sure what your point is

 

[Sensual visionary]

um, ...okay... I guess

reads very much AI to me, not sure what your point is

AI? That's interesting... Just sharing what came up for me. It's what makes a community, right?