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Spike Lee announces Off The Wall Documentary - Estate Announcement Page 66

ChrisC;4127710 said:
When Bad 25 documentary was originally sold through the MJ shop it cost £14.99 for the blu-ray. I guess they put the price up now that it's become hard to find? Who knows.

£14.99 is an acceptable price for the blu-ray. £21 not so much.
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The DVD version went up about $3 or $4 as well. I went ahead and bought it tho, because it might disappear again.
 
Ivy, my reply does not meet your satisfaction because you are resistant to facts clearly showing the Estate is blameworthy.

Jacksons had Victory clips that included ALL brothers including Randy (minus Jackie for reasons we know) placed on their Vevo channel only for them to be removed by Sony.

DePasse’s responded as to why M25 rehearsal clips, that included ALL brothers including Randy were not included.

As Michael sang: you keep dreaming.
 
Tygger said:
Ivy, my reply does not meet your satisfaction because you are resistant to facts clearly showing the Estate is blameworthy.
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actually your refusal to answer simple questions is quite satisfactory from my perspective. As always you are hellbent on blaming in Estate so therefore you cannot acknowledge that Jacksons most probably have control over their own image and likeliness. What's next? Are you going to start to claim Randy Jackson would happily work with the Estate and the executor he calls "the devil"? As far as I'm concerned, you are the one dreaming.
 
If the estate own's MJ's likeness and The Jacksons own their own likeness then I guess we won't be seeing Destiny, Truimph or Victory Tours anytime soon. Money is the root of all evil and it's a massive loss to fans to not be able to enjoy quality concert releases. And the extra 4 bucks price on Bad25 is a little disappointing, even though I still bought it yesterday.

I think what should happen is a cottage industry of all the most talented fans should create high-end products for the fanbase. I guess that's sort of happening anyway with fanzines, books, remixes and leaks. The fans have kept the legacy going and in a much more satisfying way. I don't really like being cheated into buying the reissue in order to own the documentary. It does feel exploitative, especially when OTW was reissued only last year.
 
It's still all speculation tho. I know a few years ago they said they had a treasure of unseen OTW material and now they don't.
It could be a 3rd party like Quincy or Rod messing things up. Who knows. :(
 
For anyone that wants to see the documentary on Showtime, there is a Showtime app where you can watch showtime and even cast it to your TV. The first month is free.
 
barbee0715 said:
It's still all speculation tho. I know a few years ago they said they had a treasure of unseen OTW material and now they don't.
It could be a 3rd party like Quincy or Rod messing things up. Who knows. :(
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Personally it wouldn't surprise me if Quincy's lawsuit is also a factor here. Also the unexpectedly low Bad 25 sales might be a reason as well. You are right, it's all speculation. But clearly it looks like there might be multiple factors at play here.
 
ivy said:
Personally it wouldn't surprise me if Quincy's lawsuit is also a factor here. Also the unexpectedly low Bad 25 sales might be a reason as well. You are right, it's all speculation. But clearly it looks like there might be multiple factors at play here.
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I think the Quincy issue is a huge factor myself.
 
A lot of people here on this forum among hardcore MJ fans declared that they don't buy posthumous releases. So unexpectedly low Bad 25 sales might be because of that also. And low Bad 25 sales is one of the main reasons why they gave up on anniversary re-issues and re-releases.
 
barbee0715 said:
It could be a 3rd party like Quincy or Rod messing things up.
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Absolutely. We all know how much problems Rod created over Thriller being used in This Is It movie. And his refusal to let them release third verse of Best Of Joy! Also there is Quincy's lawsuit against Estate.
 
Ivy, tsk tsk.

Dreaming allows you to ignore facts that I posted several times. Resisting facts does not change facts from being facts. Those facts are the Estate did not approve the use of Michael’s likeness in both instances where Jackson brothers did not refuse, including Randy.

If you ever decide to awaken from your slumber, reply with a receipt that shows the Jacksons denied usage of their likeness. I know for fact you will not and cannot provide it so you reply with your familiar labels and distractions when you cannot support your argument. Ah well.

Backtracking to Jones, eh? I already stated Jones was not the party preventing a Triumph or Victory release as he and Michael share a musical legacy:

eali88.png


From Whoopi Goldberg’s birthday celebration, 12/24/15, 2:48-3:00.
https://www.facebook.com/TheView/videos/10153139061071524/

Jones could have been anywhere in the world to celebrate Goldberg and yet this is where he stood. Jones did not prevent the M25 rehearsals, he did not have the Victory tour clips removed from the Jacksons' Vevo channel, he did not prevent the release of Wembly concert despite his collaboration with Michael on those songs, and did not prevent the teaser featuring only Michael from the Triumph tour being used to promote Lee's documentary despite his collaboration with Michael on that song. I can continue with what Jones did not prevent however; I am sure you are very aware of Jones lawsuit and that Jones does not control Michael's image.
 
OnirMJ said:
Absolutely. We all know how much problems Rod created over Thriller being used in This Is It movie. And his refusal to let them release third verse of Best Of Joy! Also there is Quincy's lawsuit against Estate.
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Sorry for the short OT, but do you have any links about Rod not wanting to have his BoJ verse released? I know it has been briefly discussed some months ago on this forum, but I never saw a direct source confirming his involvement in BoJ (which I hope is true, as there possibly might be more post-Thriller Rod stuff).
 
OnirMJ said:
I never heard anything about that. Do you have any source to back up that claim? Links or quotes?
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I'm quoting from memory, but I get all my news from newspaper articles on google alert or primarily here. (This forum)
I'll be glad to look. :)
 
@tygger

at this point I'm not sure if you are just trying to pick a fight or you genuinely don't understand a single word I wrote. Either way I'm tired of writing this is not about Michael's image and I won't spend any time to explain the difference of Randy Jackson and Quincy's willingness to work with Motown and at the same time being unwilling to work with MJ Estate. If you don't get it by now, you never will.
 
It's odd to suggest that the 'lack of support' for Bad 25 is a reason they're putting this OTW project out in it's current state. If they give us less they can expect less back. A lot of fans, including me, don't want to pay for another copy of Off the Wall when we already have it numerous times.

Bad 25 'failed' because the Estate and/or Sony decided to rely entirely on fans consuming the product. No attempt was made, where I live in the UK, to engage with the wider general public audience. Nobody knew it was out, frankly. They released the weakest, most unfinished, song on the set to radio which sank without trace and failed to secure a timely broadcast of the Bad 25 documentary - by the time it was shown, Bad 25 was in terminal decline and beyond the point of resusitation, possibly even out of the charts entirely.

I'm considering not purchasing the Off the Wall set, for reasons I've already offered. From my point of view that makes matters look pretty bleak.
 
thiron said:
Sorry for the short OT, but do you have any links about Rod not wanting to have his BoJ verse released? I know it has been briefly discussed some months ago on this forum, but I never saw a direct source confirming his involvement in BoJ (which I hope is true, as there possibly might be more post-Thriller Rod stuff).
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I don't have any links anymore but I think it came from D.S. There is more post-Thriller Rod stuff. He wrote 1 song for the Bad album that is still unreleased. That is it. He just wrote lyrics for third verse of Best Of Joy. Don't know when exactly.
 
ChrisC said:
It's odd to suggest that the 'lack of support' for Bad 25 is a reason they're putting this OTW project out in it's current state.
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It's not the only reason, of course. But it is one of the reasons. I just think it's little hypocritical to demand of them to release something you want and when they release it not buy it because you "don't buy posthumous releases". I'm not talking about you but some fans said that exact words, I know because I've read them somewhere on this forum today.
 
ChrisC said:
It's odd to suggest that the 'lack of support' for Bad 25 is a reason they're putting this OTW project out in it's current state. If they give us less they can expect less back. A lot of fans, including me, don't want to pay for another copy of Off the Wall when we already have it numerous times.

Bad 25 'failed' because the Estate and/or Sony decided to rely entirely on fans consuming the product. No attempt was made, where I live in the UK, to engage with the wider general public audience.
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I don't think that general public is a factor. People working for Sony told that they exclusively targeted the fans with Bad 25 release. Their sale goals was 1/3rd lower than the previous general public release. They believed they were giving exactly what the fans asked for - untouched demos, concert etc. Despite this it didn't reach the lower sales goals. Sony were asking why the fans didn't buy. We discussed this long during that time. I believe to them Bad25 showed that fan targeted projects don't bring the sales (lower sales) they hope. So they might feel that demos are better used in releases such as Xscape where they can attract general public rather than releasing them in anniversary releases. Bad 25 clearly didn't pay off so it's not odd to suggest they will try to cut down losses on OTW. Documentary is probably recovering it's own costs with the TV deals.
 
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Ivy, your reply does not include a receipt as I (and I would like to believe you) knew it would not.

Remember, you responded to my post in an attempt to “prove me wrong” about who is the party responsible for hindering a Victory/Triumph tour release with this OTW offering. The Estate proved you wrong with the OTW trailer/teaser.

You will either wake up and begrudgingly accept the fact the Estate controls Michael’s image and therefore is the blameworthy party or you will willfully remain dreaming with visions of Randy, Quincy, and any other you can name who have no control over Michael’s image and did NOT hinder any other releases that included their images/input.

Regardless of choice, fortunately this thread was not derailed by following the usual and familiar destructive path.
 
@Tygger

This post just made me realize I gave you way too much credit in the past. Good to know.
 
barbee0715 said:
It's still all speculation tho. I know a few years ago they said they had a treasure of unseen OTW material and now they don't.
It could be a 3rd party like Quincy or Rod messing things up. Who knows. :sad:
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OnirMJ said:
I never heard anything about that. Do you have any source to back up that claim? Links or quotes?
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From a 2010 article:

Sony and the Jackson estate already have plans in place for a reissue of Jackson's multi-platinum-selling 1979 album "Off the Wall" next year that will contain a trove of new, exclusive material.

"The stuff we have in the vaults around that record is fascinating and remarkable," Stringer said. "We're going to build a whole platform with a documentary. The outtakes are fantastic! We have a lot of great stuff from around every time period [in Jackson's career]. We're plowing through everything now to understand what we've got."
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http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-michael-jackson16-2010mar16

Directly contradicts what they claim now.
 
Tygger said:
If you ever decide to awaken from your slumber, reply with a receipt that shows the Jacksons denied usage of their likeness. I know for fact you will not and cannot provide it so you reply with your familiar labels and distractions when you cannot support your argument. Ah well.
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ivy said:
@Tygger

This post just made me realize I gave you way too much credit in the past. Good to know.
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It seems I was correct.


SoCav said:
From a 2010 article:

Sony and the Jackson estate already have plans in place for a reissue of Jackson's multi-platinum-selling 1979 album "Off the Wall" next year that will contain a trove of new, exclusive material.

"The stuff we have in the vaults around that record is fascinating and remarkable," Stringer said. "We're going to build a whole platform with a documentary. The outtakes are fantastic! We have a lot of great stuff from around every time period [in Jackson's career]. We're plowing through everything now to understand what we've got."
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http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/16/entertainment/la-et-michael-jackson16-2010mar16

Directly contradicts what they claim now.
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Magic!

Either the Estate fabricated what they had then or they are fabricating what they have now and are blaming Michael for their lazy effort. Which is true? Which is true?
 
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Tygger said:
Magic!

Either the Estate fabricated what they had then or they are fabricating what they have now and are blaming Michael for their lazy effort. Which is true? Which is true?
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Yes, this is the article I remember (or one very very similar), and yes, they have fabricated the reason for not having the material-obviously Michael is not really to blame, but maybe they used him as an excuse because we are his fans, and we won't blame him anyway.

This still doesn't prove who is to blame for the lack of the material or tour, etc. It could be Branca, McClain, any Jacksons-it could be Quincy or Rod-or somebody we don't even know about. It could be Sony trying to put out the most cost effective package possible.
 
Tygger said:
It seems I was correct.
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you would like to think that but no actually I was trying to be kind and not explicitly say what I mean.

I've been waiting all day to see if you realize your whole argument has been despite Randy calling Branca "the devil", Quincy suing the estate for "breach of contract", they would not limit any release &work with Estate because it's financially good for them. In other words you have been arguing they would say/do one thing but then do another for financial benefit. That doesn't make them look good. I'm quite disappointed that you didn't caught on that in your argument.

My "receipt" has been the common sense logic that if someone thinks someone is "the devil" or they did them wrong, they wouldn't work with them and stay true to their beliefs despite any amount of money. I guess I'm giving Randy and Quincy way more credit to stay true to their beliefs than you do. But if you want me/us to believe that the Jacksons/ Quincy or whomever would work with the evil estate for financial gain, that works for me too.

Ps: for future reference if you aren't understanding what I'm hinting about, don't push me to post it explicitly. 99% of the time you wouldn't like what I got to say. So if I'm trying to end the conversation or if I'm intentionally being vague, that's to your benefit , take it .
 
So is showtimes channel a american tv channel or phone app guys?
 
barbee0715 said:
Yes, this is the article I remember (or one very very similar), and yes, they have fabricated the reason for not having the material-obviously Michael is not really to blame, but maybe they used him as an excuse because we are his fans, and we won't blame him anyway.

This still doesn't prove who is to blame for the lack of the material or tour, etc. It could be Branca, McClain, any Jacksons-it could be Quincy or Rod-or somebody we don't even know about. It could be Sony trying to put out the most cost effective package possible.
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And that quote is from Stringer, Epic Chairman (a division of Sony) not an Executor.

And where did they "blame" MJ anyway? Saying he wasn't organized can be a simple statement of fact; not an indictment.
 
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