The problems with Invincible

[Spaceship]

I have to confess that through me being lazy at the time, I never bought Invincible. And now I can not find a copy of it anymore.

You can easily get it new from Amazon.

I would blame its lack of success on the fact, that by 2001 many people had moved on from Michael Jackson and were getting into rubbishy Idol type music and boybands like 5ive, Nsync, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera.

Actually, there was plenty of interest in Invincible. The lead single "You Rock My World" reached the top 5 in Australia, Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the top 10 in Austria, Germany and the United States. It also should be noted that the song reached the top 10 in the United States based solely on radio airplay alone as there was no commercial release for the song in that territory; had it been given a commercial release in that territory, it would have peaked higher. "Butterflies" reached the top 15 in the United States based solely on radio airplay; had it been given a commercial release in that territory, it would have peaked higher.

Finally, when Invincible was released in October 2001, it peaked at number one in Australia, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States. The album sold 5 million copies in less than 3 months and stands as Michael's fastest selling album of all time worldwide. Sales for the album eventually declined, but that was mainly because no significant promotion was done to maintain the album's hype and momentum. There were only three singles for the album, none of which were given proper releases; "You Rock My World" was not given a commercial release in the United States, "Cry" wasn't released in the United States at all and "Butterflies" was not given a commercial release anywhere. There were also only two music videos and no tour altogether.

Anyway would it be worth me getting it? I mean I like the Michael album and a lot of people slag that off for reasons other than the Cascio tracks as well.

I would recommend the album solely to hardcore fans. I feel it has a few great tracks ("Break of Dawn", "Butterflies", "Don't Walk Away", "Speechless", "Unbreakable" and "Whatever Happens"), but I think everything else on it is mediocre.

 

[MIST]

Many fans says there are fillers in invincible but what one consider a filler there is another one who think it´s one of the best songs.
I really think it´s worth to buy the album.

 

[KOPV]

I mentioned several reasons that I feel effected Invincible sales but I think the reason why discussing what caused the sales not to be super high is part of fans way of not excepting that the album was not AS up to par compared to his previous albums... Look at all polls in the forum, it's almost always voted at the bottom of the list from favorite to least MJ releases.. (while alive)

I love the album but just listening to it, I know it's not the album I would introduce to new fans most of the time to show them what MJ could do.. That's why Invincible is a "grows" on people, it's not until you really listen and pay attention to his vocal skills, and just hearing something different from Michael it becomes refreshing.... But for new fans, it for the most part is not as catchy!

 

[MAQ]

I didn't wanna start a new Vince thread so.. Let me just say this; have you noticed that Vince still sounds very fresh today (I mean most of the songs). Like Threatened has a lot of dubstep in it and the concrete over concrete sound is so different. The breakdown part in Heartbreaker is also very futuristic - in a successful way lol. Most of the songs from that era like "I want it that way" sound incredibly dated. But not Vince.

 

[KOPV]

^ I have always said that Invincible would have been more widely accepted within the past 5-7 years than back in 2001.. Well I didn't ALWAYS say that, just the past 7 or so years... lol!

 

[MAQ]

^ I have always said that Invincible would have been more widely accepted within the past 5-7 years than back in 2001.. Well I didn't ALWAYS say that, just the past 7 or so years... lol!

Lol everything sounds either fresh or pleasantly dated on an MJ album . I mean Dangerous is an NJS album but it's far superior than other NJS albums in matters of production with every sound cristal clear

 

[analogue]

Lol everything sounds either fresh or pleasantly dated on an MJ album . I mean Dangerous is an NJS album but it's far superior than other NJS albums in matters of production with every sound cristal clear

Dangerous has elements of New Jack Swing, but it's not a complete New Jack Swing album.

 

[Spaceship]

Exactly half of the tracks on Dangerous ("Can't Let Her Get Away", "In The Closet", "Jam", "Remember The Time", "She Drives Me Wild", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me" and the title track) are pure New Jack Swing. There's also New Jack Swing mixed with pop rock and hard rock in "Black Or White".

 

[analogue]

Exactly half of the tracks on Dangerous ("Can't Let Her Get Away", "In The Closet", "Jam", "Remember The Time", "She Drives Me Wild", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me" and the title track) are pure New Jack Swing. There's also New Jack Swing mixed with pop rock and hard rock in "Black Or White".

Then you have Heal The World, Give Into Me, Will You Be There, Gone Too Soon and Keep The Faith. Songs that aren't New Jack Swing

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

Exactly half of the tracks on Dangerous ("Can't Let Her Get Away", "In The Closet", "Jam", "Remember The Time", "She Drives Me Wild", "Why You Wanna Trip On Me" and the title track) are pure New Jack Swing. There's also New Jack Swing mixed with pop rock and hard rock in "Black Or White".

They are definitely not pure New Jack swing songs. Have you heard the New Jack Swing songs from the late 80's and early 90's?

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[youtube]JWsRz3TJDEY[/youtube]

Sure Dangerous had elements of NJS but in no way were those songs pure New Jack Swing songs.

 

[analogue]

Calling Dangerous pure New Jack Swing is like calling Off The Wall pure Disco

 

[Spaceship]

They are definitely not pure New Jack swing songs. Have you heard the New Jack Swing songs from the late 80's and early 90's?

Sure Dangerous had elements of NJS but in no way were those songs pure New Jack Swing songs.

I'd say they're mostly New Jack Swing, at the very least.

Calling Dangerous pure New Jack Swing is like calling Off The Wall pure Disco

I'm not, but it's mostly New Jack Swing imo

 

[Themidwestcowboy]

I'd say they're mostly New Jack Swing, at the very least.



I'm not, but it's mostly New Jack Swing imo

Then I think we are hearing different things

 

[MAQ]

NJS generally sounds very dated now, especially since a lot of the production from that era seems to have that "hiss". Plus when you play them loud, their quality dips as well. But not with Dangerous. Minus the snare, the production on that album was very very ahead of its time.

Take the example of WYWTOM or In the Closet, both sound so fresh with crystal clear vocals and even though there's a lot of instruments being used you can hear each element very clearly.

I remember the only issue I had with Dangerous (track) in my preteen years was its snare which got in the way. Everything other than that; the hushed vocals, the catchy hook and prehook, the downright intoxicating bassline and strong kicks all sounded "new". I used to ask my friends the age of In the Closet or Remember the Time and they used to think it was from 2005 or something.

And their observation was not that far fetched. Remember "Smack That"? Notice how similar the kicks and the general production is. The only thing you can say which separates them in terms of age is the snare. But I do like the snare too lol.

 

[mj_frenzy]

I think there is no doubt that MJ did his best to bring out a record in hopes of entering the new millennium in the most dynamic way, for example:

- He spent a fortune in recording that album.
- He put its release off several times.
- He hired the best producers whose songs dominated the charts at that time (Rodney Jerkins, for example).
- He called at the same time some of the producers that gave him, in the past, some really successful songs (Teddy Riley, for example).
- He rejected a lot of songs (in their early versions) that his producers presented him.
- He was hardest on himself during the making of that particular album.

Also, I know that MJ seemed to be proud of that record during some interviews that he gave right before or after its release. But that, of course, could have come down to other reasons (for example, promotional ones).

It cannot be denied that the subsequent legal battle with his record company harmed the potential (if there was really one) of that album. Also, the lack of a possible tour in the following years damaged its further sales, too. Moreover, MJ seemed unwilling to perform songs from the ‘Invincible’ album (probably due to legal issues also) when he had the chance to do it (MSG 2001, Apollo 2002, for example) considering that he released his most anticipated album around that period. In my opinion, the fact that he sang ‘You Rock My World’ in 2001 (MSG) does not mean anything because he could have been forced to perform live the first single of his forthcoming record. Additionally, the absence of the ‘Invincible’ album from the ‘This Is It’ shows (except probably of ‘You Rock My World’ & few other segments) is glaring, but probably not surprising. In other words, no matter how bad (or not as good as his previous ones) that album was, I expected more songs from his last studio album in those 2009 shows.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that from its release onwards (& regardless of the quality of that album) ‘Invincible’ was defiantly ignored by MJ himself during the subsequent years. As a result, I tend to believe that MJ was never really satisfied with that album.

 

[MAQ]

Invincible is like some of the posts I've made on Facebook which hold a lot of meaning to me but are seldomly "liked" and so I delete them myself since nobody's gonna see them. Invincible probably was the same way for Michael. It went out of the charts as early as mid to late 2002 in much of the territories. So it probably hurt him and thus he did not try to reincarnate the songs or memories. And he probably thought that there wouldn't be any cheers from the crowds when he performed them during This Is It. It's sad and thinking about it in this way.. well it upsets me more. That is why he let Invincible fade - because no one's gonna pay attention to it.

I think I'm gonna go listen to Invincible again - in his memory.

 

[Erandi]

I'm one of the (few) who really love Invincible. I could do without some of the songs on it, but I still love the album as a whole. I find it hard to believe that fans didn't vote (when they had the chance to pick the songs for This Is It) for Unbreakable, or Threatened.
But, knowing Michael, he might have felt that Invincible had been a flop, since it hadn't sold so well. Or maybe he associated it with bad memories (from recordings, disagreement over short films, battles with Sony...). I guess we'll never know for sure...

 

[OnirMJ]

It cannot be denied that the subsequent legal battle with his record company harmed the potential (if there was really one) of that album. Also, the lack of a possible tour in the following years damaged its further sales, too. Moreover, MJ seemed unwilling to perform songs from the ‘Invincible’ album (probably due to legal issues also) when he had the chance to do it (MSG 2001, Apollo 2002, for example) considering that he released his most anticipated album around that period. In my opinion, the fact that he sang ‘You Rock My World’ in 2001 (MSG) does not mean anything because he could have been forced to perform live the first single of his forthcoming record. Additionally, the absence of the ‘Invincible’ album from the ‘This Is It’ shows (except probably of ‘You Rock My World’ & few other segments) is glaring, but probably not surprising. In other words, no matter how bad (or not as good as his previous ones) that album was, I expected more songs from his last studio album in those 2009 shows.

This Is It was a greatest hits tour, as he said it was, as it was announced and promoted to be. No songs from Invincible album are among his greatest hits, for various reasons and neither one of them being quality. Enough said about This Is It.

Promotion for Invincible was officially OVER in early February of 2002 when Sony cancelled the planned release of Butterflies single. After that MJ had absolutely no reason to perform any of its songs on any of his one off shows. As always he performed his well known songs which are all choreographed. So for those shows he didn't have to do any preparations, new choreography, costumes, themes and other usual stuff he would do for a performance or music video. He had no reason to continue promote a project or its songs when his record company is not behind him. And he didn't have any will to learn, prepare, teach and rehearse new choreographies for some not so relevant shows like that Bill Clinton concert or America Bandstand where he performed only 1 song. Of course if he had wanted he could have performed any song from Invincible album. There are absolutely no legal issues there. He just didn't want to. And again not because of their quality or because of his dissatisfaction with the project.

 

[innuendo141]

Who knows? In the end he may have not been 100% happy with the output. The evidence going for this is that he only ever performed 1 Invincible track in full, and at subsequent award shows he performed Dangerous, BOW and Heal the World. Only an instrumental of Threatened was included in TII, and we aren't even sure if he was supposed to do Speechless.

It may also not have been that he was dissatisfied, but maybe more so disappointed with the reaction.

 

[analogue]

Michael was aware that a lot of fans were disappointed with Invincible. So Maybe that's why he never bothered with that album after it's release. And I think that's another reason why Michael was taking so long to make the follow up to Invincible, because he was afraid that fans were going to be disappointed with it, like they were with Invincible.

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Q: 'Invincible' hasn't enjoyed record-breaking sales. Does 'Thriller' cast too big a shadow?

MJ: Absolutely. It is tough because you're competing against yourself. 'Invincible' is just as good or better than 'Thriller', in my true, humble opinion. It has more to offer. Music is what lives and lasts. 'Invincible' has been a great success. When The Nutcracker Suite was first introduced to the world, it totally bombed. What's important is how the story ends.

USA TODAY 2001

http://www.allmichaeljackson.com/interviews/usatodayinterview.html

 

[analogue]

Michael saying that Invincible was better than Thriller is something I always took with a grain of salt. Because at the time Michael was promoting the Invincible album, so of course he's going to say something like that to generate hype for that album. He wasn't going to do interviews and say ''This isn't as good as Thriller or any of my other previous albums''

 

[smoothvillain]

I feel like he held back on Invincible because of issues with Sony after hearing some of the outtakes that were considered to be on it. Like he knew what he was putting out was good but not amazing or his best.

"Thriller" put Michael on the map. It was the most popular album in his career for a multitude of reasons, but mostly, right place, right time. He would never top it because by that time, a good portion of the people who supported Thriller were over him. Whether it be due to the allegations or because his face changed and his skin became "lighter" ,some people just decided Michael Jackson wasn't cool anymore. These people never gave him a chance with the stuff he came out with in later years. I personally think "Bad" is a much better album and remains my favorite. And to listen to him go from "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" to songs like "Morphine" and "Earth Song" is just a fascinating study at how someone can grow when they allow themselves and go against the norm.

When it comes to the public's opinion, I've heard from some of the people who like Michael Jackson's music that a song or two from Invincible is their favorite, like Break of Dawn. So who knows? Maybe he thought the album was good and that the other songs were just not at the right level to be released. That's usually the case.

 

[MAQ]

And I think in time, songs like Butterflies and YRMW will stand up alongside his classic material, in the same way a song like TDCAU has gained in popularity since 2009.

Excuse me -,- ! TDCAU was more popular than Remember the Time outside the US. In fact it was more popular than more than a few singles on Thriller.

 

[HIStoric]

Excuse me -,- ! TDCAU was more popular than Remember the Time outside the US. In fact it was more popular than more than a few singles on Thriller.

That's great but Matty isn't wrong, it has gained in popularity in recent history. I wouldn't say TDCAU was obscure before hand but I feel it's got more attention in reaction of recent historical events such as all those those police brutality riots/protests in the USA that have been happening in America over the past year and a bit (and yes, I realise you were talking about 'outside the US', but even then).

I remember being on Tumblr while one of the protests was happening and I saw an audio post of TDCAU on my dashboard that had a few thousand notes on it. It was going up very quickly, by the hundreds and sometimes even thousands every refresh (which I did approximately every few minutes). I've certainly notice the song get a lot more attention in recent history myself.

 

[HIStory]

That's great but Matty isn't wrong, it has gained in popularity in recent history. I wouldn't say TDCAU was obscure before hand but I feel it's got more attention in reaction of recent historical events such as all those those police brutality riots/protests in the USA that have been happening in America over the past year and a bit (and yes, I realise you were talking about 'outside the US', but even then).

I remember being on Tumblr while one of the protests was happening and I saw an audio post of TDCAU on my dashboard that had a few thousand notes on it. It was going up very quickly, by the hundreds and sometimes even thousands every refresh (which I did approximately every few minutes). I've certainly notice the song get a lot more attention in recent history myself.

Although the protests sure boosted TDCAU's popularity even more but I don't think it's right to say they gave it its popularity. IIRC it had great view/play numbers on YouTube/Spotify even before that. In fact, on YT it's MJ's second most popular video (Brazil version) only after Thriller. Probably the fact that when MJ died it was heard a lot on TV due to that snippet from TII helped more.

 

[HIStoric]

Although the protests sure boosted TDCAU's popularity even more but I don't think it's right to say they gave it its popularity.

I agree, however I didn't attribute it's popularity to those riots. I just said that in recent history, those events have helped it gain more attention.

 

[Galactus123]

Michael saying that Invincible was better than Thriller is something I always took with a grain of salt. Because at the time Michael was promoting the Invincible album, so of course he's going to say something like that to generate hype for that album. He wasn't going to do interviews and say ''This isn't as good as Thriller or any of my other previous albums''

I'm sure it was really better in his opinion. I don't think Michael would have released the album like that is he wasn't satisfied with it. Michael said many times that he wants to be ground breaking and the best is yet to come. I don't think he would have made new music if he didn't believe that he could do even better.

 

[JM77]

Generally, I don't think Michael was completely satisfied with any of his albums - after all, he was a perfectionist

 

[MAQ]

Tbh... I think Invincible was better than Thriller in more than a few ways.

*ducks*

I mean whenever I listen to Invincible I feel at home, I feel relaxed and it has nothing to do with nostalgia. In Thriller, there is a constant "wham wham" factor which gets annoying after a while. His voice also seems more strained on Thriller.

It had iconic singles, I admit! But that has nothing to do with the music being better or worse. Although there is certainly no Billie Jean or Beat It or WBSS on Invincible, there are songs like Whatever Happens, You Rock My World, Threatened, Unbreakable, Speechless etc which easily trump the other Thriller songs. Of course this is just my opinion.