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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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Panish asked if Erk knows some of MJ's #1 songs. He responded Beat It, Billie Jan, Man in the Middle, Heal the World, Can’t Stop Loving You.

:hysterical: Misspelling
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"He said he had MJ on a much reduced tour, period of hiatus, another reduced tour, and decline from there up until he was 65 years old.
Erk projected MJ do 260 shows, average of 2 per week. He said MJ was much bigger than any other artist."

I don't know whether laugh or cry, this is too funny. Michael Bad tour (he was young and could cope) was 123 dates and his other tours were even less. When there is 40 billion on table, they are bold enough to say he would have done 260 dates when he is in his 50's :giggle:
We know Michael was bigger than any other artists, but that is just delusional:D
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"MJ's TII Gross (2009 and 2010) -- $638.976.138 Erk did a calculation based on Beyonce's Pepsi deal and came up with $267,354,032."

I don't know how could he calculate that according Beyonce's deal, MJ didn't have sponsor, or did he?
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"Panish asked if Erk is familiar w/ artists saying this is it and returning to tour. "Not to me personally, but I've seen in the public eye."

I suppose AEG is going to show clip from MJ's homemovies in which he says he doesn't want to tour.
I do think Michael didn't want or liked touring, but he had to do TII, but the questions is, would he had done tour after TII?
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"Erk calculated 4 more tours through 2024. Projected Income to MJ -- Merchandise $79,407,278."

I cannot imagine MJ still touring 2024 at age 66.
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"Strong said Erk estimated MJ would do 260 shows for TII tour, plus 4 more tours after that. She asked if that wasn't too much. He said no."

Maybe not for him, but I think Michael would disagree with him:bugeyed
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"Strong played KJ's deposition. She said he was a bit surprised with MJ going on tour since MJ didn't want to do Moonwalk on stage at 50."

Even though, she knew Michael didn't want to tour, that didn't stop he pestering Michael to do Allgood with brothers. It is damn shame that she put aside what MJ wanted and went what cubs wanted, the sad story of Michael's. He was never treated as individual with individual needs in that family. He was treated as savior for family needs, and what he wanted or needed wasn't even issue :no:
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"Panish said he will try to finish this week. Witnesses to come: Erk, an economist, Dr. Brown (propofol expert), Katherine Jackson and maybe Tom Barrack."

Where is all the Jackson cubs, especially Randy?
---------------------------
"Judge told defendants' attorneys to be prepared to start their case in chief on Monday."

Finally, although I'm not looking forward certain aspects what they will bring out during their time:-(

-------------------------------
This trial is possibly going into Oct!!
 
LastTear said:
What part of This Is It did they not get!
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Let me quess, This Is It? :D


LastTear said:
^^^^ A pretty long final curtain call, i wonder how many shows he would perform on a 37 month tour. At least they are allowing him to retire at 65.
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and he was supposed to do 4 more tours after TII, or did he say 3 with TII?
Maybe they think MJ final curtain call was like Cher's, it just kept going on and on.......
I had a giggle at your wording that they allow MJ to retire at 66, how nice of them:D

Btw, how is all that make 40 billion that plaintiffs are looking for?
 
Autumn II;3869001 said:
In the end, it is not possible to put a dollar price on a life. Absolutely everyone involved in this lawsuit is trying to do exactly that. There is legal responsibility, and moral/ethical responsibility. In the latter, all are guilty. It's more than obvious that many people saw that Michael was not doing well, and responded according to monetary interests, but not about the life of a human-being. Michael was much more than a logo, or money-making machine. I do feel that there were ample red-flags about Murray, but whether or not that comprises legal culpability, the court will decide.
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The thing about those red flags is that no one knew Murray was actually the CAUSE for MJ being sick. They could have felt he wasn't doing anything to help him, but who realistically would take the leap that the doctor was doing something to MJ to endanger his $150,000 a month meal ticket. That's why when I read that AEG should have connected the dots to Murray as the reason for his mental and physical decline, I believe it's all coming from hindsight. I don't believe anyone would have connected Murray to MAKING Michael ill, especially when it could be assumed he'd helped kept him healthy FOR YEARS previously as his primary doctor.

Tygger;3869006 said:
It is interesting that some fans do not feel Michael would be as successful as the plaintiff’s expert testified too. Maybe remove oneself from the figure presented and focus on the activities presented.
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It's not that fans don't believe he would be as successful as the plaintiffs suggest. To the contrary, I think most fans believe MJ could have surpassed any predictions in the music and concert arena. Just like he wildly exceeded expectations in selling out the O2. We just don't believe MJ would have wanted to or would have toured that much. Even the plaintiff Katherine Jackson has alluded to that.
 
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^^^ I agree with gerryevens, I believe Michael could easily sell out 200+ shows several times over, I believe any Las Vegas show would be extremely successful. I have no idea if any extended TII tour would have happened or if Michael would have actually made those movies he talked about. My issue is with the assumption from the plantiffs that Michael was so nervous even doing a press conference that he had to get drunk, that the stress of rehearsing lead to Murray doing what he was doing which in turn lead to all the ailments and 'warning signs' seen and eventually Michael's death. :'( I hear 'AEG should have done something' - tbh the only thing they could have done at that stage was to pull the plug on the tour. How does that pan out with a 260 date world tour?
 
Someone said that Michael told them he wanted to do a few exclusive shows in global cities. And now I read on twitter that he had said this to some of the follower fans too. Doesn´t sound he wanted to do a "tour", but just a few concerts.
 
It's funny how Erk come to those conclusions. Did he take in consideration Michael's health & personal issues? One of his health problems was arthritis which usually gets worst with age and to alleviate the pain he would had to take meds. And what about the side effects of those meds, would that allowed him to perform or to cancel the tours? What about the stress he'd had to go through the preparation of the tours? In a vid Michael said he didn't like to tour and he said it when he was younger, how is it that Erk came to the conclusion that Michael will be on stage until he was 65?

And even if his predictions were true, I still don't believe Michael would have given Katherine so much money. She's a greedy mother and I wish she doesn't get a penny.
 
Aquarius said:
It's funny how Erk come to those conclusions. Did he take in consideration Michael's health & personal issues? One of his health problems was arthritis which usually gets worst with age and to alleviate the pain he would had to take meds. And what about the side effects of those meds, would that allowed him to perform or to cancel the tours? What about the stress he'd had to go through the preparation of the tours? In a vid Michael said he didn't like to tour and he said it when he was younger, how is it that Erk came to the conclusion that Michael will be on stage until he was 65?
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Yes, he had artirithis and Kenny testified about his back pain (plaintiffs have testimonies from various people that said MJ was in pain, and was dependad, but not addict) and yet plaintiffs wants us to believe MJ would have done 260 concerts! If MJ had to resort taking propofol even before the tour started (in 1 country) I can image him jumping up and down with joy having to travel all over the world, which is even harder than staying in one place.

Right, they are officially delusionals:bugeyed
 
Bubs said:
Yes, he had artirithis and Kenny testified about his back pain (plaintiffs have testimonies from various people that said MJ was in pain, and was dependad, but not addict) and yet plaintiffs wants us to believe MJ would have done 260 concerts! If MJ had to resort taking propofol even before the tour started (in 1 country) I can image him jumping up and down with joy having to travel all over the world, which is even harder than staying in one place.

Right, they are officially delusionals:bugeyed
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Michael Jackson's did not receive proper medical care from Conrad Murray.
If he had not been killed by Murray, at some point Michael Jackson with decent medical and health care,
would have, could have regained his health.
 
Tygger;3869006 said:
It is interesting that some fans do not feel Michael would be as successful as the plaintiff’s expert testified too. Maybe remove oneself from the figure presented and focus on the activities presented.
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I think this is a misrepresentation of what the fans are saying. Yes there were talks about taking TII to other cities, there were even emails sent asking for 5 shows in Japan and so on. So yeah it's highly probable that TII would be taken to other cities and there were high earning potential.

but 260 shows? Do you find that even remotely realistic? When Michael in Bad tour only performed 120+ shows? When he wanted to do movies? when he reportedly complained about "waking up to 50 shows"?

Also add to this Michael's health, according to Jacksons he was emancipated, paranoid, slow to get the material, couldn't do 360 spins, and was about to die within weeks because he did not get sleep. Do you really think that in this situation could the tour really be successful and will he be able to continue to do 260 shows?

It sounds such an oxymoron to me, on one hand saying he was on his dead bed and on the other one he's working till he's 65. How does this magical improvement happens? Just because AEG doesn't hire or fire Murray?


I thought the defense’s questions about Michael’s “lavish spending” was ridiculous. It has nothing to do with earning potential. If Michael found himself in debt in his future after TII, he would find himself having to work thus, increasing earnings.
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nothing to do with earnings potential but everything to do with loss income. because it is earnings minus spendings. isn't it?

Ivy, how different will the final verdict form be for either side? The plaintiffs' case follows their verdict form. The defense will start soon and I do not predict them putting any blame on the doctor. Maybe the defense will remove Katherine at the very least.
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Well it's going to be a combination of both while considering the oppositions to each other's forms. Yes AEG doesn't list Murray on their forms but Jacksons want Murray to be listed as "AEG / Murray". So it could range from no Murray, AEG, Murray on different lines or AEG / Murray together on one line. We simply don't know what the judge have decided or will decide.

Bubs;3869022 said:
"He said he had MJ on a much reduced tour, period of hiatus, another reduced tour, and decline from there up until he was 65 years old.
Erk projected MJ do 260 shows, average of 2 per week. He said MJ was much bigger than any other artist."

I don't know whether laugh or cry, this is too funny. Michael Bad tour (he was young and could cope) was 123 dates and his other tours were even less. When there is 40 billion on table, they are bold enough to say he would have done 260 dates when he is in his 50's :giggle:
We know Michael was bigger than any other artists, but that is just delusional:D
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gerryevans;3869031 said:
It's not that fans don't believe he would be as successful as the plaintiffs suggest. To the contrary, I think most fans believe MJ could have surpassed any predictions in the music and concert arena. Just like he wildly exceeded expectations in selling out the O2. We just don't believe MJ would have wanted to or would have toured that much. Even the plaintiff Katherine Jackson has alluded to that.
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LastTear;3869040 said:
^^^ I agree with gerryevens, I believe Michael could easily sell out 200+ shows several times over, I believe any Las Vegas show would be extremely successful. I have no idea if any extended TII tour would have happened or if Michael would have actually made those movies he talked about. My issue is with the assumption from the plantiffs that Michael was so nervous even doing a press conference that he had to get drunk, that the stress of rehearsing lead to Murray doing what he was doing which in turn lead to all the ailments and 'warning signs' seen and eventually Michael's death. :'( I hear 'AEG should have done something' - tbh the only thing they could have done at that stage was to pull the plug on the tour. How does that pan out with a 260 date world tour?
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I agree with this. Not only that let's not forget Michael according to Jacksons had drug dependency which got worse during tours. It got worse during this tour too. According to Jacksons testimony He lost weight to the point of being emancipated and look like on his death bed, he was slow to get material, he couldn't remember the words to his songs and needed a teleprompter, he couldn't do 360 spins, he did not do a full run of the show, he wasn't able to sing and dance at the same time and he was supposed to die within weeks because he wasn't getting any sleep.

Then Jacksons present an earning capacity that overlooks the starting point "drug dependency that got worse during tours". I'm trying to understand how that can happen. What is the theory there? If Murray wasn't hired or he was fired, Michael wouldn't be using Propofol? Do they expect AEG to postpone the tour - with no negative effects - and get Michael in rehab - when all Jackson interventions failed - , cure him completely, solve his sleep problems and then get him back to touring? Perhaps it is me but I just don't get the logic.
 
In my humble opinion the Michael Jackson described so far by the plantiffs is not the same as the one with the earning potential as Erk has testified. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Michael could earn that figure, just that, to me, the two don't appear to match. Can't have it all ways.
 
ivy said:
I agree with this. Not only that let's not forget Michael according to Jacksons had drug dependency which got worse during tours. It got worse during this tour too. According to Jacksons testimony He lost weight to the point of being emancipated and look like on his death bed, he was slow to get material, he couldn't remember the words to his songs and needed a teleprompter, he couldn't do 360 spins, he did not do a full run of the show, he wasn't able to sing and dance at the same time and he was supposed to die within weeks because he wasn't getting any sleep.

Then Jacksons present an earning capacity that overlooks the starting point "drug dependency that got worse during tours". I'm trying to understand how that can happen. What is the theory there? If Murray wasn't hired or he was fired, Michael wouldn't be using Propofol? Do they expect AEG to postpone the tour - with no negative effects - and get Michael in rehab - when all Jackson interventions failed - , cure him completely, solve his sleep problems and then get him back to touring? Perhaps it is me but I just don't get the logic.
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I don't get it either.

Then again, he testified: For his projections, "Erk assumed MJ was in good health."
 
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Well but that is how the Jacksons always were behaving towards Michael dead or alive (sorry but I need to be that blunt) and everywhere, who cares if he really was healthy or very sick, who cares what we ever said, our own words mean nothing in the end their son/brother Michael is used to bring the money in! That's the whole story.

Look at Jermaine... how much he loved his brother... and then wrote 'Word to the badd'

Look at LaToya... what she said about him during the Chandler story... and how she's back now exploiting his children... but hey isn't she all the time such a loving sister!

And even look at Miss Katherine... sheeeesh I have so much respect for the elderlies... but fact is she got his trust with his three children and the first thing she did was signing a contract for them bringing her money (yeah and she can give that a billion times to her needy children... it doesn't justify shit!).

They will always say whatever... in the end Michael has to bring them money!

Michael would have never done 260 shows. Never ever.
I've seen that infamous video which later disappeared. I would always swear under oath on the bible or my life that I did watch it online and what... however that would be hearsay right?!
Michael was at that day not ok with the rise from 10 to 50 shows. He really said shaking his head and with an obvious upset tone in his voice... I went to bed with 10 and woke up to 50 shows.
He was clearly upset!
I can't say why he was upset. Maybe he didn't want to do the 50 shows. Maybe he was 'only' upset cuz he wasn't really asked before someone else signed him up for that cuz the contract was 'only' about 31or 32 (?) shows.
But we as only simple fans know he didn't want to do shows anymore. He always wanted to do movies and that he didn't through his life was probably because he didn't find the right partners, co producers, studios etc. for it who he could trust. Michael was not into shows anymore.
If he would have done TII then it was for his kids. We all heard him, the final curtain call... he was pretty serious about that.
 
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I wonder when AEG puts there case on are we going to see Latoya saying "they know he could not do 50 shows" but see the brothers say "we were going to join him on the TII tour?
 
CherubimII said:
Michael Jackson's did not receive proper medical care from Conrad Murray.
If he had not been killed by Murray, at some point Michael Jackson with decent medical and health care,
would have, could have regained his health.
Click to expand...

|Lets not forget who brought CM in and who wanted CM to be his tour doctor. He knew the danger of propfol and he trusted CM. If AEG had told MJ: "no, you cannot select your own doctor, you take the one we pick", what do you think MJ would have said for that?
He either had told them to f... off, or f... of you all, and (you may fill in the rest what you may think would had happened)
 
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 1 ?
Strong said Erk estimated MJ would do 260 shows for TII tour, plus 4 more tours after that. She asked if that wasn't too much. He said no.

doc183915633_131803770


(yep I totally got this gif from another forum / poster)
 
So a guy who was losing so much weight he looked emaciated , could not dance anymore, was dying of coldness and being treated bad was in such bad shape there was no way he was going to do 50 shows was going to tour until he was in a wheelchair? I need a drink
 
This accountant, Arthur L. Erk, a certified public accounting from New York, is guestimating. I read in the Los Angeles Times article what he basis this on, but before Michael died, I figured he'd have his $500 million debt paid off in 3 years.

I'd say a figure of $1.127 billion, in 4 year's, is a gross miscalculation. If Michael Jackson had thought that he had that kind of earning potential, I think he would have slept more soundly at night!
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson-money-20130716,0,1882153.story
 
What happened to Grace - is she in or out?

Will they be wrapping up without her testimony. If so, not good for Mother, in my opinion.
 
It is interesting that some fans do not feel Michael would be as successful as the plaintiff’s expert testified too.

It's not that he would not be successful--it's that he stated in his home movies "I hate touring" and "I go through hell." He said he would lose 10 pounds each performance from sweat, that he had to deal with different time zones, and had trouble sleeping. He did NOT repeat NOT want to tour! This is why he agreed to the 10 shows b/c they were in one place.
 
I'll be curious to see how people act towards AEG in a few weeks. I'm not a Jackson family fan by know means. Anyone that is side ing with AEG now is going to flip after AEG trashes MJ. I think it will be a huge mistake on AEG part when they do that but the usually defense by someone liable is to blame and trash the victim it's the American way. In the words of MJ... Brace yourself! It's going to be nasty.
 
Bubs;3869022 said:
Panish asked if Erk knows some of MJ's #1 songs. He responded Beat It, Billie Jan, Man in the Middle, Heal the World, Can’t Stop Loving You.

:hysterical: Misspelling
--------------
"He said he had MJ on a much reduced tour, period of hiatus, another reduced tour, and decline from there up until he was 65 years old.
Erk projected MJ do 260 shows, average of 2 per week. He said MJ was much bigger than any other artist."

I don't know whether laugh or cry, this is too funny. Michael Bad tour (he was young and could cope) was 123 dates and his other tours were even less. When there is 40 billion on table, they are bold enough to say he would have done 260 dates when he is in his 50's :giggle:
We know Michael was bigger than any other artists, but that is just delusional:D
-----------------
"MJ's TII Gross (2009 and 2010) -- $638.976.138 Erk did a calculation based on Beyonce's Pepsi deal and came up with $267,354,032."

I don't know how could he calculate that according Beyonce's deal, MJ didn't have sponsor, or did he?
----------------
"Panish asked if Erk is familiar w/ artists saying this is it and returning to tour. "Not to me personally, but I've seen in the public eye."

I suppose AEG is going to show clip from MJ's homemovies in which he says he doesn't want to tour.
I do think Michael didn't want or liked touring, but he had to do TII, but the questions is, would he had done tour after TII?
--------------------
"Erk calculated 4 more tours through 2024. Projected Income to MJ -- Merchandise $79,407,278."

I cannot imagine MJ still touring 2024 at age 66.
------------
"Strong said Erk estimated MJ would do 260 shows for TII tour, plus 4 more tours after that. She asked if that wasn't too much. He said no."

Maybe not for him, but I think Michael would disagree with him:bugeyed
-------------------------
"Strong played KJ's deposition. She said he was a bit surprised with MJ going on tour since MJ didn't want to do Moonwalk on stage at 50."

Even though, she knew Michael didn't want to tour, that didn't stop he pestering Michael to do Allgood with brothers. It is damn shame that she put aside what MJ wanted and went what cubs wanted, the sad story of Michael's. He was never treated as individual with individual needs in that family. He was treated as savior for family needs, and what he wanted or needed wasn't even issue :no:
----------------
"Panish said he will try to finish this week. Witnesses to come: Erk, an economist, Dr. Brown (propofol expert), Katherine Jackson and maybe Tom Barrack."

Where is all the Jackson cubs, especially Randy?
---------------------------
"Judge told defendants' attorneys to be prepared to start their case in chief on Monday."

Finally, although I'm not looking forward certain aspects what they will bring out during their time:-(

-------------------------------
This trial is possibly going into Oct!!
Click to expand...

Erk is delusional! I think Ortega needs to write a new memo about him needing a psych evaluation asap. Pathetic.
 
Well, that testimony sure goes against the often repeated mantra by certain Jacksons that "MJ is worth more dead than alive". They sure love to throw that out there when they bash the executors and anyone they feel is stealing what belongs to them. lol

Big Apple2 said:
What happened to Grace - is she in or out?

Will they be wrapping up without her testimony. If so, not good for Mother, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Panish didn't mention her as a witness he expects to call, so who knows, they may not call her after all. Would be smart of them not to IMO:

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 6h
Panish said he will try to finish this week. Witnesses to come: Erk, an economist, Dr. Brown, Katherine Jackson and maybe Tom Barrack.
 
Smooth72 said:
I'll be curious to see how people act towards AEG in a few weeks. I'm not a Jackson family fan by know means. Anyone that is side ing with AEG now is going to flip after AEG trashes MJ. I think it will be a huge mistake on AEG part when they do that but the usually defense by someone liable is to blame and trash the victim it's the American way. In the words of MJ... Brace yourself! It's going to be nasty.
Click to expand...


And if they do trash Michael it will be the Jacksons fault. AEG did not bring this lawsuit the Jacksons did
 
jamba said:
Erk is delusional! I think Ortega needs to write a new memo about him needing a psych evaluation asap. Pathetic.
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Thanks Jamba, I needed a good laugh :giggle:
I must say that Erk's testimony was kind of comedy testimony. I find it extremely funny to think about, MJ went on solo tour when he was in his 30's, and did 3 big tours in ten years + few one off gigs, but now when there is 40 billion on the table, they want us to believe that MJ would do 4 tours when he is in his 50's.
 
ivy said:
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 1 ?
Strong said Erk estimated MJ would do 260 shows for TII tour, plus 4 more tours after that. She asked if that wasn't too much. He said no.

doc183915633_131803770


(yep I totally got this gif from another forum / poster)
Click to expand...

They are saying after 50 dates @ 02, MJ would do 210 other dates somewhere else,
and then 4 more tours?


@Astanga, I'm going to have borrow your gif
MJLOOKUP.gif



Lena Lucy said:
After TII Michael wanted to make movies, he was done with touring.
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Not according to plaintiffs. Maybe Michael was allowed to do movies when he had day off in his 260 dates tour schedule, or/and between the tours, and before he reaches age of 66 when he is allowed to retire :giggle:
 
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Justthefacts said:
And if they do trash Michael it will be the Jacksons fault. AEG did not bring this lawsuit the Jacksons did
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I totally agree with that but... AEG watched him quickly deteriorate before there eyes and led to his eventual death. They both suck!
 
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