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The Discussion of MJ's Unreleased Tracks

Not to turn the thread into another one of those discussions, but I am still surprised to this day MJs work methods seem to change so drastically for Invincible. He was just using what others had created, whereas imo, one of MJs greatest strengths was his ability to create timeless melodies.

Shout just doesn't sound like an MJ record, and listening to that HCW writers demo just kind of adds to the point. The whole thing could've been done in a week. Some great records, don't get me wrong, but it's missing something.
 
Bill Bottrell:

Yes. the date is right. I stayed alone at Hayvenhurst after MJ was down at Westlake with Q.
I did extra careful mixes of the important songs over a week or so. I wanted them presented in the best possible way so MJ could get his way in that situation
DATS were the main thing but I probably made simultaneous cassettes of all the BAD songs
 
dam2040 said:
Not to turn the thread into another one of those discussions, but I am still surprised to this day MJs work methods seem to change so drastically for Invincible. He was just using what others had created, whereas imo, one of MJs greatest strengths was his ability to create timeless melodies.

Shout just doesn't sound like an MJ record, and listening to that HCW writers demo just kind of adds to the point. The whole thing could've been done in a week. Some great records, don't get me wrong, but it's missing something.
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I just don't think he was fully committed to the Invincible project. It also would've helped if he leaned on one producer for the album, like he used to with Quincy Jones. Would've made the album have more cohesion and better tracks selected for the final track listing. I also think he was banking on Rodney Jerkins too much. Jerkins made some nice tracks, but he didn't come with enough strong material.

Butterflies was classic MJ, but I thought I read somewhere that MJ didn't even want to record a song like that because it sounded too much like his older stuff. That kind of mentality was wrong. It was great and there should've been more like that on the album.
 
Fuzball said:
The 1998/99 songs that didn't end up on the album were actually promising. As I wrote in another thread some time ago, MJ didn't act rationally after the Munich accident.
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Personally I think the bulk of songs we know and have from those sessions are much superior to the material that ended up on the album. They feel like they have a stronger foundation.
 
Victorious said:
Maybe MJ kept songs he did write himself for after Invincible, as so to get out of the contract with Sony and get royalties for his work later on new label
#conspiracytheorist
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The much more likely situation is that MJ saw his own songwriting abilities as limited, and thought he was retreading ground with songs like We’ve Had Enough and The Way You Love Me. Despite these songs being far superior to most of Invincible, it’s the same reason he turned down The Neptunes.

Like Dangerous, he brought in young, hot writers and producers who he thought could create a new sound. That’s why we end up with 2000 Watts, Privacy, Shout etc. But he relied far too much on these outsiders compared to Dangerous and it ended up soulless.

The rest of the inclusions (Cry, Don’t Walk Away, Heaven Can Wait etc.) that didn’t innovate sonically can only be explained by MJ’s newfound lack of faith in his own songwriting. Perhaps because of YANA being the most successful single from HIStory, he assumed that RKelly’s song would have a better chance at success than his own.
 
AlwaysThere said:
I hope Bill shares the Dangerous session calendars. Since he was there from start to finish, seeing concrete data as to when certain tracks were recorded and finished would be so interesting. There’s a lot of discourse around that era specifically as to when songs were done.
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This is exactly what I want now too! He said he had it.
 
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robotchicken14 said:
The much more likely situation is that MJ saw his own songwriting abilities as limited, and thought he was retreading ground with songs like We’ve Had Enough and The Way You Love Me.
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There's also not many uptempos in this collection. MJ made music you could dance to. But he did not seem to be in a dance music mood at all. So in that sense he did need a contemporary youthful sound to keep pace. The Neptune's just did way better than Darkchild, as someone who likes both. At least just as well.
 
Derek1984 said:
I just don't think he was fully committed to the Invincible project. It also would've helped if he leaned on one producer for the album, like he used to with Quincy Jones. Would've made the album have more cohesion and better tracks selected for the final track listing. I also think he was banking on Rodney Jerkins too much. Jerkins made some nice tracks, but he didn't come with enough strong material.

Butterflies was classic MJ, but I thought I read somewhere that MJ didn't even want to record a song like that because it sounded too much like his older stuff. That kind of mentality was wrong. It was great and there should've been more like that on the album.
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I agree. Butterflies and YRMW are easily the best songs, and both sound more like the older stuff than anything else on that album.
 
Plenty of Invincible sounds vintage. All of the ballads sound more like the older stuff. They just weren't all the most melodic or interesting.

The uptempos all sound very industrial. Which was the style at the time.
 
I read somewhere that a version of Al Capone was recorded in The Bee Gees studio during the victory tour
 
dam2040 said:
Not to turn the thread into another one of those discussions, but I am still surprised to this day MJs work methods seem to change so drastically for Invincible.
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It's so strange how, on his final album, he went back to how his Motown solo albums had been made, i.e. : he would just put his vocals on songs that came to him fully formed. Invincible is what a Michael Jackson album would have been in 2001 had he remained a Motown singer his whole career instead of becoming a songwriter/producer.
 
Michael seemed disconnected from Invincible and came off like one of those albums you do because your label is pushing it so you bring in a bunch of writers and give minimum effort to fulfill the obligation
 
JamesCMJJ said:
How we feeling about the session calender? I never expected to see Sunset Driver in the Bad Era.
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A mixture of “it’s so awesome to have definitive knowledge of studio sessions, this is how Beatles and Prince fans must feel” and “ah damn it, knowing these songs exist and have vocals only makes me wanna hear them more.”
 
JamesCMJJ said:
How we feeling about the session calender? I never expected to see Sunset Driver in the Bad Era.
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Didn't the Thriller 40 booklet hint at that already though?

This was another song Michael originally wrote for the Thriller album. Although Michael also considered it for Bad, he never finished it but released it as a bonus track on The Ultimate Collection in 2004. It was also one of the songs featured in the Ubisoft game, “Michael Jackson: The Experience.” The mixer on the original 1982 demo was Bill Bottrell who would go on to co-produce tracks on Michael’s Dangerous album.

I mean, he would even pull it out again for Dangerous and mash it up with Blood on the Dance Floor. The song had surprisingly long legs.
 
AlwaysThere said:
A mixture of “it’s so awesome to have definitive knowledge of studio sessions, this is how Beatles and Prince fans must feel” and “ah damn it, knowing these songs exist and have vocals only makes me wanna hear them more.”
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I wish branca NEM hurry tf up & get outta here! He didn't fire him twice for nothing. Mj said in his own words "I HATE JOHN BRANCA!" & so tf do I!
 
Mister_Jay_Tee said:
I mean, he would even pull it out again for Dangerous and mash it up with Blood on the Dance Floor. The song had surprisingly long legs.
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I would also speculate that it, if even only in lyrical content, evolved into Bad (“The word is out that you’re doing wrong).

It’s surely quite telling that Sunset Driver is worked on for a couple of days in May ‘86, and MJ writes Bad presumably soon after, considering the short film began production in late ‘86
 
robotchicken14 said:
I would also speculate that it, if even only in lyrical content, evolved into Bad (“The word is out that you’re doing wrong).

It’s surely quite telling that Sunset Driver is worked on for a couple of days in May ‘86, and MJ writes Bad presumably soon after, considering the short film began production in late ‘86
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Yeah I can imagine the evolution. Bad is like a mixture of Thriller and Sunset Driver. Pretty similar baselines between all three, similar rhythm, vocal melody, and tempo as well.
 
“Sunset Driver” is so goddamn good, dude.

That’s all I really have to contribute to the conversation. One of the most underrated rhythms and melodies MJ ever did. I think it would’ve done numbers if it got a proper release.
 
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